Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

[Ring 6]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Ah, trying to win the argument with the socratic method. Priceless.

The definition of success according to Merriam-Webster dictionary:
1. obsolete : outcome, result
2. a : degree or measure of succeeding
2. b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence
3: one that succeeds

With that 2500 year old method, you are asking him to redefine #1, which is the outcome, the result. The ring. But the word success in the context of that previous post meant #2 (either a. or b.), which is a whole different meaning.

So before you ask him whether he wants to redefine, you need to define what he needs to redefine.

I'm not asking him anything, I am saying that is what he is trying to do.

 

[Ring 6]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Defensive rank in terms of points allowed over the past 4 years

Jets:
1
6
20
24

Patriots:
5
8
15
15

Nothing there points to Ryan being the answer as DC. What is interesting to look at is the compare the Patriots seasons prior to Ryan's arrival in NY.

Patriots 2006-2008:
2
4
8

What we can see is the slow decline of the defense, as the greats from the early portion of the decade aged and/or moved on. For all the griping about the defense, much of it justified, the fact remains that the team has been able to field a defense that's competitive in terms of points allowed, even in the face of a near-total overhaul. Knowing that, it makes no sense to me when people start crying about the overall coaching.

It also should be noted that this also occured while having the best offense in the league. In a capped system, you must sacrifice something to improve something else, especially in the cumulative view.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Great argument that taking J McD back would be a failure
As we know, aside from the QB, the veteran offensive talent and deep threat stretch the field style in 2007 was substantly different than 2012's run balance squad

Not really. This team is more talented on offense than it was in 2007. They always wanted to base it around the TE's, just never had any. Then Randy fell in their lap. They always wanted to be balanced. Only they couldn't locate or maintain the kind of talent in the backfield to. And Josh isn't in his 60's and he's had his tail stuffed between his legs twice since departing. He knows he's got some work to do before he starts mapping out his career ascendancy again. Kind of like a young BB post Cleveland, only he's going to have to help the Pats win it all again to get serious consideration. Bill was already established as a coach to the point all he had to do was get loose once Kraft got over his Parcell's aversion.

RAC and Charlie were ideal fits here at the time, that time being 2001-2004. They were system veteran coaches Bill had worked with for years, many in RAC's case. They were the perfect conduits to install and operate the schemes Bill desired, the same one's they'd operated in NY (RAC at the Giants and JETS although never as a coordinator because he was Parcell's version of Pepper). Parcell's was never as enamored of Charlie as Bill was. Charlie had more autonomy here than RAC did, but he probably had less than Josh has been given this time around. Part of that has to do with the way the focus here has changed over time due to having Brady as your #1 weapon on an offense that is tasked with schematically covering up for the weakness in your former strength, defense, due to the need for that unit to transition due to several seasons of attrition post it's heyday.

Bill coached a lot of young defensive talent here in 1995 and laid a foundation (that stuck to the point those players lobbied for his hiring as HC in 2000). He picked up on that thread as he cleaned house in 2000. RAC was brought in in 2001, when Bill had the bulk of what would be his defensive core over the next several seasons in place. Charlie had a lot more on his plate in flushing out an offense, but he had a GOAT QB in the making. And from 2003 on he make no bones about wanting to cash in on the opportunity that presented.

Mangenius inherited a still largely great defense but one suddenly and dramatically entering it's personal back 9. Josh inherited an offense headed for a tough transition, losing two of it's best skill players and striking out at locating either their replacements or viable replacements in the running game or the kind of impact players at TE they had hoped to have located. Mangini saw the writing on the wall and bailed before his ego got bruised between 2005-2006. Josh hung in there and adapted and adjusted to the hand he'd been dealt which continued to result in grappling with challenging assignments for 4 years. That is why he was always the most likely to be welcomed back if in fact he failed to launch his own HC career. He'd already passed the BB smell of genius test, even if he wasn't ready to fly solo for a lot of reasons that have little to do with schematic prowess. Those weren't going to be an issue for him here.

RAC and Charlie lacked the schematic genius upside. Mangini lacked the coaching temperement (players didn't respond to his coaching despite it's flashes of schematic genius or performance of db's on his watch). Skill players here, and in particular Brady, have always responded to Josh. Josh had also learned that all players elsewhere wouldn't, regardless of talent. Some did, and some of them have landed here as a result. I've had some issues with Josh this season, but I think they are the result of external forces related to longer term goals at times overshadowing the task at hand. I'd have been OK with BOB remaining at the helm, but absent that I was beyond thrilled to see them able to reel Josh back in for a second go round.

Charlie on the other hand was a perfect fit for what Pioli needed in KC. As was RAC on D. A step back to the fundamantals of this system and schemes. Just hitched his wagon to the wrong HC. Here they offered little or no ongoing upside. Just status quo seat warmers for a year or two at best who could run the basic schemes. Pioli was looking to replicate something. That was great for him. Bill doesn't look back like that. He's always moving forward and that is what requires developing genius.

 

[Kid~Brady]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Defensive rank in terms of points allowed over the past 4 years

Jets:
1
6
20
24

Patriots:
5
8
15
15

Nothing there points to Ryan being the answer as DC. What is interesting to look at is the compare the Patriots seasons prior to Ryan's arrival in NY.

Patriots 2006-2008:
2
4
8

What we can see is the slow decline of the defense, as the greats from the early portion of the decade aged and/or moved on. For all the griping about the defense, much of it justified, the fact remains that the team has been able to field a defense that's competitive in terms of points allowed, even in the face of a near-total overhaul. Knowing that, it makes no sense to me when people start crying about the overall coaching.

Good take but my issue still stands. This secondary sucks, sucks, sucks. How does each and every player go backwards..... continously? If thats not coaching, then I don't what to say. These are young and atheletic players, they have the talent.... somethings missing.....

Maybe Rexy shouldn't be the DC for the Patriots, but we need to DB coach thats for sure. I just think Rexy's different defensive schemes could bring a new element to the defense as a whole. This defense does nothing to confuse opposing players, even rookies.... and scrubs like Sanchez.

How is it that the Patriots are the only team that makes him look better than he is? How? I guess I'm just tired of the mediocrity. I know what the stats show but overall, this defense has been at the bottom for the last few years.

 

[Cassanova792]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Defensive rank in terms of points allowed over the past 4 years

Jets:
1
6
20
24

Patriots:
5
8
15
15

Nothing there points to Ryan being the answer as DC. What is interesting to look at is the compare the Patriots seasons prior to Ryan's arrival in NY.

Patriots 2006-2008:
2
4
8

What we can see is the slow decline of the defense, as the greats from the early portion of the decade aged and/or moved on. For all the griping about the defense, much of it justified, the fact remains that the team has been able to field a defense that's competitive in terms of points allowed, even in the face of a near-total overhaul. Knowing that, it makes no sense to me when people start crying about the overall coaching.

You seem to think points allowed is the be all end all stats of defense, its not. It's the same as saying the amount of sacks are the be all end all measurement in relation to how good we are pressuring the QB. It's merely one stat of many that tells the whole story of a defense.

You also fail to mention how an explosive and dominant offense like New England can dictate the way opponents play on offense, usually resulting in the opponents abandoning the run and playing one dimensional, trying to play catch up with the Pats. That in theory should give a defensive advantage. Do you think the Jets under Mark Sanchez had that sort of luxury?

 

[Kid~Brady]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

You seem to think points allowed is the be all end all stats of defense, its not. It's the same as saying the amount of sacks are the be all end all measurement in relation to how good we are pressuring the QB. It's merely one stat of many that tells the whole story of a defense.

You also fail to mention how an explosive and dominant offense like New England can dictate the way opponents play on offense, usually resulting in the opponents abandoning the run and playing one dimensional, trying to play catch up with the Pats. That in theory should give a defensive advantage.

Right.

With better pass defense, or overall defense, we could really blow teams out again but the team as to score points because the other team WILL score as well. Even a better pass rush would be better, someone to compliment Jones. Look at the Giants, their secondary isn't the best but they use pass rushers to cover it up and well, it works. This team should know that best.

 

[patfanken]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

It's a fanboy Q rating thing. Just like they want a Revis or wanted say an Asamougha over a McCourty or every overhyped FA who ever hits the market. They don't grasp the team building vs. perceived talent collection concept that extends here to the organization as well as the on field product. They want someone with name recognition who did something once in an environment totally unrelated to the one that exists here. Any guy who won something here once upon a time with a veteran team constructed totally different from the present day iteration or anyone who won on a totally dissimilar team (even if he didn't win more than some games and especially if he ever beat us) is clearly preferable to the clowns Bill plucks these days from mining and engineering schools... They might just as easily be talked into wanting somone else's up and comer position coach if the media would just enlighten them as to who that guy might be... :bricks:

Its called 'the grass is always greener syndrome', Mo. When things look down, everyone wants an instant and easy answer. The long term view is about a minute and a half for this crowd.

Its part of the entitlement that Pat fans feel is their lot. IMHO they should be thrilled with the progress this INCREDIBLY young and inexperienced defense is making while constantly racking up win after win while they retool. Over the last 3 years while the defense has been totally rebuilt, and though all the injuries, personnel mistakes and the tribulations of playing inexperienced and fill in players, no team has won more game than the Pats.

Despite all the pain last year....and it was worse than last year, btw....the Pats had the 5th best defense out of all the playoff teams. In January when it really counts this defense will be better than last year's group. What in Patriots history would make you doubt it.

 

[Ring 6]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

I'd rather have Rex Ryan than Eric Mangini. At least you can trust Rex to do the best for his team and his boss.

I'm not here to rumpswab Mangini, but he did do what was best for his boss and team at the expense of his FORMER boss and team and then competition.
Rex has also done a few things that seem to be best for him at the expense of his boss and team, such as backing Revis, and publicly trashing and distancing himself from the Hill pick to name a few.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Good take but my issue still stands. This secondary sucks, sucks, sucks. How does each and every player go backwards..... continously? If thats not coaching, then I don't what to say. These are young and atheletic players, they have the talent.... somethings missing.....

Yes, your (and BB's) ability to analyze secondary talent is missing.

Maybe Rexy shouldn't be the DC for the Patriots, but we need to DB coach thats for sure. I just think Rexy's different defensive schemes could bring a new element to the defense as a whole. This defense does nothing to confuse opposing players, even rookies.... and scrubs like Sanchez.

I don't know how many times this has to be said before people will start to pay attention to it:

Bill Belichick has made it clear that his coaches teach exactly what he wants his coaches to teach. Therefore, if you think the secondary is brimming with talent and is being held back by coaching, you think the secondary is brimming with talent and is being held back by Bill Belichick.

How is it that the Patriots are the only team that makes him look better than he is? How? I guess I'm just tired of the mediocrity. I know what the stats show but overall, this defense has been at the bottom for the last few years.

The Patriots are not the only team that makes Sanchez look better than he is. His two best games this season were against the Bills and Colts, for example. Sanchez is a bottom tier QB in the NFL, but he has the talent to occasionally have a good game. Hell, even Curtis Painter had a couple of decent games in his NFL career.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

You seem to think points allowed is the be all end all stats of defense, its not...

Given that I spent much of last year pointing out that points allowed is not the end all of stats, I'll just point out that, once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Kid~Brady]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Yes, your (and BB's) ability to analyze secondary talent is missing.



I don't know how many times this has to be said before people will start to pay attention to it:

Bill Belichick has made it clear that his coaches teach exactly what he wants his coaches to teach. Therefore, if you think the secondary is brimming with talent and is being held back by coaching, you think the secondary is brimming with talent and is being held back by Bill Belichick.



The Patriots are not the only team that makes Sanchez look better than he is. His two best games this season were against the Bills and Colts, for example. Sanchez is a bottom tier QB in the NFL, but he has the talent to occasionally have a good game. Hell, even Curtis Painter had a couple of decent games in his NFL career.

Lol, well I don't care if my ability to analzye secondary is bad, I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to do it. So if it's not coaching, then it loops back to the original point, his ability to analyze talent..... simply sucks.

 

[Finnishfan]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

I'm not asking him anything, I am saying that is what he is trying to do.

But he isn't.

You used a different definition of the word than he did. To him, success was "measure of succeeding" and to you it was purely about the "outcome, result".

Those are two very different things. Other one is about "performing well", other one is about "winning". You don't need to perform well to win, and vice versa.

So in other words, you can have success (win SB) without having success (on the defense).

Therefore, I see two flaws in your argument:

1) If the issue with our defense is our current level of performance, then the mere possibility of performing well without winning invalidates your point of SBs being a good measuring stick for success.

2) If the issue is the lack of winning, then you contradict your argument about BB being a better defensive coach than Ryan because we wouldn't have that issue if we had a coach who can have success.

I love playing with words, but the bottom line is this:
You cannot measure DCs ability to coach a defense by counting his teams' trophies, because that would require you to make ceteris paribus assumption which means that for instance the performance of the offense or the skill levels of the defensive players are meaningless in that equasion.

 

[PATSNUTme]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Could you see him as a defensive coach for the Patriots? I know, I know..... but before you slash me and my suspect idea, hear me out.

I know he has the attitude that really doesnt fit the Patriots style here but I think the franchise as a whole is beginning to break from that "Patriot Way" theme and figure out ways to win. Now, I was the same guy who was wondering if Crennel would ever come back here as well, I guess I'm really concerned with the defense, go figure.

But just think for a second, although we can't stand the guy, could you imagine what he could do with our defense? I think we lack those confusing plays and "exotic" formations as we so call it. I think Sexy Rexy could make this defense much better, even with the lack of talent we currently have.

His defense lost it's best player and is giving up a ton of yards on the ground but they are still top 5 for pass defense. I know Cromartie has alot to do with that but I think in the scheme of things, he could make a difference.

Okay, now you can shoot my idea down and tell me how much of a loony bin I was for suggesting this!

 

[Cassanova792]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Given that I spent much of last year pointing out that points allowed is not the end all of stats, I'll just point out that, once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.

hahahah do you read what you post bro? Seriously. Every post you make defensively is with points allowed but fail to bring up any other stat like pass vs run defense etc. Honestly one of the most hard headed posters on this board IMO. You concede that there is without a shadow of a doubt no remote possibility that it could be coaching and/or scheme and that its purely talent based. Where as most people like myself could see it being a combination of both.

 

[edboc]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Tim Tebow has made the Jets net punting the best it's ever been according to Rex Ryan, in today's Jets press conference.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Lol, well I don't care if my ability to analzye secondary is bad, I'm not getting paid millions of dollars to do it. So if it's not coaching, then it loops back to the original point, his ability to analyze talent..... simply sucks.

I've been pointing out the mistakes with his signings/trades/picks for years. Just take a look at the former DBs beginning in 2008, Not counting Harrison, who was clearly at the end, or Hobbs, who's out of the league due to a pair of serious neck injuries:

Sanders - was in decline, still should have been kept
Meriweather - struggled in Bears system, injured this season
Wheatley/Wilhite/Springs/Bodden/Lockett/McGowan/ - out of the league
Dowling - IR mainstay
Chung - Can't cover, is too small to stay healthy as a run-stopper
Butler - sucked in Carolina, has been forced into starter's role in Indy
O'Neal - sucked, out of the league
Page - sucked, now trying baseball
Arrington - UDFA, should be a CB4
Sergio Brown/James Ihedigbo/Nate Jones/Antwaun Molden/Sterling Moore/Malcolm Williams - a smorgasbord of suckage


Outside of McCourty's one season, there hasn't been a single decent DB brought in outside of (possibly) this year's additions, unless you want to argue that Bodden's one year qualifies him.

That the coaching staff has been able to take that list of garbage and still find a way to limit opponent scoring is little short of a coaching miracle.

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

hahahah do you read what you post bro? Seriously. Every post you make defensively is with points allowed but fail to bring up any other stat like pass vs run defense etc. Honestly one of the most hard headed posters on this board IMO. You concede that there is without a shadow of a doubt no remote possibility that it could be coaching and/or scheme and that its purely talent based. Where as most people like myself could see it being a combination of both.

I know exactly what I'm posting. It's not my fault if you can't figure out the point of my posts. Yes, they give up a lot of yards, and their rankings are at or near the bottom in many categories. That's the point. This team has taken a boatload of crap and coached it up to the point where it is plays well enough to get the team into the playoffs, and into the Super Bowl this past season.

 

[Kid~Brady]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

I've been pointing out the mistakes with his signings/trades/picks for years. Just take a look at the former DBs beginning in 2008, Not counting Harrison, who was clearly at the end, or Hobbs, who's out of the league due to a pair of serious neck injuries:

Sanders - was in decline, still should have been kept
Meriweather - struggled in Bears system, injured this season
Wheatley/Wilhite/Springs/Bodden/Lockett/McGowan/ - out of the league
Dowling - IR mainstay
Chung - Can't cover, is too small to stay healthy as a run-stopper
Butler - sucked in Carolina, has been forced into starter's role in Indy
O'Neal - sucked, out of the league
Page - sucked, now trying baseball
Arrington - UDFA, should be a CB4
Sergio Brown/James Ihedigbo/Nate Jones/Antwaun Molden/Sterling Moore/Malcolm Williams - a smorgasbord of suckage


Outside of McCourty's one season, there hasn't been a single decent DB brought in outside of (possibly) this year's additions, unless you want to argue that Bodden's one year qualifies him.

That the coaching staff has been able to take that list of garbage and still find a way to limit opponent scoring is little short of a coaching miracle.

Yeah, I see your points.

So you have ZERO confidence that Rex could atleast make a little difference, not even a slight chance?

 

[Deus Irae]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

Yeah, I see your points.

So you have ZERO confidence that Rex could atleast make a little difference, not even a slight chance?

Don't take my word on it. Go read the Jets boards. You'll hear them complaining that Rex has been a complete failure with regards to player development.

One of the things that happens when teams struggle is that fans start complaining. Because most fans don't know much of anything about the game, the complaints are almost always the same (OC sucks! Blitz more!, etc...). Because even fans who know the game aren't privvy to all the needed information, the complaints are always educated guesses at best.

Could Ryan help the team? Maybe.
Would he be a better DC than Patricia? Probably not, because the relationship between Ryan and BB would probably be a disastrous one.
Could he improve the secondary? His poor record with players other than Cromartie and Revis, who are players with talent that was clearly established prior to Ryan joining the Jets, wouldn't seem to indicate that he'd be any sort of slam dunk upgrade.

 

[Ring 6]

re: Rex Ryan...just "imagine" for a second... him as the DC for the Pats

You seem to think points allowed is the be all end all stats of defense, its not. It's the same as saying the amount of sacks are the be all end all measurement in relation to how good we are pressuring the QB. It's merely one stat of many that tells the whole story of a defense.

You also fail to mention how an explosive and dominant offense like New England can dictate the way opponents play on offense, usually resulting in the opponents abandoning the run and playing one dimensional, trying to play catch up with the Pats. That in theory should give a defensive advantage. Do you think the Jets under Mark Sanchez had that sort of luxury?

Of course points are what matters most, it is what decides wins and losses.
For every argument that a big lead makes teams one dimensional is the counter that it makes the defense play prevent and allow garbage points.
One of many factors that influence a stat is not an strong argument.