Question on improving Mac's arm strength

[BigPeteG]

I get that . But can't that be improved by improving your core strength and pliability . So if my core muscles are strong and flexible through exercises and with repeated practices , won't my throwing power improve? I know I am making it sound simplistic , but isn't that the case?

There is a reason why NFL GMs look for guys with big arms. Right or wrong - they understand that throwing is an athletic event. And while certainly people can improve their athleticism - there is a limit that depends on your frame and genetics and so on. For example Tom Brady claims to have taken 0.1 seconds off his 40 yard dash. But he can train forever and he will never run a 4.3.

It really depends on your potential and your current ability. Going with a weight lifting comparison - most men with training could likely bench 300lbs. But the guy benching 400lbs - he might be already beyond your potential - even if you put everything into it.

So going back to Mac - he fell because he didn't have the best arm. Now if everyone thought he did have the potential to have a huge arm just with some training - he would not have fallen. Basically the Patriots are saying - this Mac Jones guy I think we can coach him up enough to be an excellent QB. Other teams are saying - even if we coaching him up - his arm is to weak. Let's pass on him.

Who will be right? We will find out. My point is its not some 'likely scenario" that Mac Jones will greatly improve his arm strength. It would be unusual.

I will say that I think modern coaches in baseball have gotten really good at squeezing out throwing potential.

When I was a kid almost no one threw 100MPH. Nowadays seems like they have dozens of guys who can hit that kind of velocity. That's because baseball coaching has gotten much better. They know how to analyze the throwing motion - what muscles to strengthen and stretch and how to work on the kinetic chain for maximal velocity. So now it seems like a big tall kids can hit 100mph - where in the old days some weakness might have kept them in the low 90s.

Mac Jones has a small frame and normal length arms - so not sure he can ever be a guy with a cannon. But heres to hoping the Patriots got it right and those other guys got it wrong.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

???

Claims about Brady's arm weren't accurate. From the beginning, his arm was stronger than those who questioned it had claimed. And Brady won the distance competition of the QB challenge in 2003.

And the Brady comparison is brought up just about every time someone mentions Jones' arm strength, and has been talked over ad infinitum.

Maybe it is the wording. Coming out of college many, rightly or wrongly, thought Brady's arm strength was poor. Not in 2003, in 1999/2000. Since so many questioned Brady's arm strength coming out of college, it is doubtful they were all wrong.

Many question Mac's arm strength. They are not wrong - Mac could improve his throwing velocity. But in 3 years Mac's arm might be quite strong, but right now it could improve.

I agree discussing Mac's arm strength leads to a Brady arm strength discussion which is only marginally relevant. We will be stuck with Brady comparisons for 10 or 20 years.

 

[BigPeteG]

Funny, I never saw that, there was plenty of hang time in his younger years(which btw is touch when it's needed).
I guess people that watch all the College tape and are evaluators are stupid.
I did NOT see a Huge arm at all in his early years, he got stronger as he worked on his legs/core/shoulder/mechanics/footwork.
He even mentioned working on these things over the years.

People are asking Why folks are getting fussed about them questioning Mac's arm, why are other people getting fussed about folks discussing TFB's arm when he came up?

I love what Tom did here, he's a Hero, but that doesn't change anything.

Again there was not some universal consensus that Brady had a weak arm. ESPN called Mac Jones a "statue". Mac Jones is not a statue. Some scouts are good - some are hacks.

 

[BigPeteG]

Funny, I never saw that, there was plenty of hang time in his younger years(which btw is touch when it's needed).
I guess people that watch all the College tape and are evaluators are stupid.
I did NOT see a Huge arm at all in his early years, he got stronger as he worked on his legs/core/shoulder/mechanics/footwork.
He even mentioned working on these things over the years.

People are asking Why folks are getting fussed about them questioning Mac's arm, why are other people getting fussed about folks discussing TFB's arm when he came up?

I love what Tom did here, he's a Hero, but that doesn't change anything.

He won the long throw contest in 2003. It doesn't really matter what you see..now does it? Throwing velocity is an objective measurement.

 

[*ChungFu*]

I would.love to see Mac develope a Howitzer, but the fact that many past and present NFL QBs with that big arm virtually SUCK, it just may be a bit overrated, huh?

 

[jimnance]

The maximum distance the ball travels is related to the velocity it has when the ball leaves the hand and the launch angle. Josh wasn't making those throws because he needs to make them in the game - he was doing to prove he can create very high velocity throws.

And please stop with the revisionist history on Brady. Brady was a fantastic high school catcher with a terrific arm. He was drafted by the Expos and the believed he would have been fantastic - hitting both with power and having great ability to throw people out.

Brady had huge arm from day 1.

Tom Brady Best Throws | 2001-2020 | - YouTube

Having a strong throwing arm has very little to do with distance.
Brady could always throw it deep I never said he couldn't.
But those throws are not the ones that matter.
What he couldn't do his first few years was consistently zip the line drive intermediate throws in tight windows. That was something he worked on year after year until he could throw lasers.
You are the one with revisionist history.
He started by working with Tom House. He worked tirelessly on mechanics- which improving on that alone will increase velocity. He worked on leg strength which increases throwing velocity. He worked on flexibility/pliability which increases velocity. And he did targeted shoulder & arm work to increase strength.
Tom Brady in 2014 threw the intermediate throws with more zip and less arc than he did 2003. A lot more.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

There is a reason why NFL GMs look for guys with big arms. Right or wrong - they understand that throwing is an athletic event. And while certainly people can improve their athleticism - there is a limit that depends on your frame and genetics and so on. For example Tom Brady claims to have taken 0.1 seconds off his 40 yard dash. But he can train forever and he will never run a 4.3.

It really depends on your potential and your current ability. Going with a weight lifting comparison - most men with training could likely bench 300lbs. But the guy benching 400lbs - he might be already beyond your potential - even if you put everything into it.

So going back to Mac - he fell because he didn't have the best arm. Now if everyone thought he did have the potential to have a huge arm just with some training - he would not have fallen. Basically the Patriots are saying - this Mac Jones guy I think we can coach him up enough to be an excellent QB. Other teams are saying - even if we coaching him up - his arm is to weak. Let's pass on him.

Who will be right? We will find out. My point is its not some 'likely scenario" that Mac Jones will greatly improve his arm strength. It would be unusual.

I will say that I think modern coaches in baseball have gotten really good at squeezing out throwing potential.

When I was a kid almost no one threw 100MPH. Nowadays seems like they have dozens of guys who can hit that kind of velocity. That's because baseball coaching has gotten much better. They know how to analyze the throwing motion - what muscles to strengthen and stretch and how to work on the kinetic chain for maximal velocity. So now it seems like a big tall kids can hit 100mph - where in the old days some weakness might have kept them in the low 90s.

Mac Jones has a small frame and normal length arms - so not sure he can ever be a guy with a cannon. But heres to hoping the Patriots got it right and those other guys got it wrong

He won the long throw contest in 2003. It doesn't really matter what you see..now does it? Throwing velocity is an objective measurement.

THREE YEARS after he trained hard at the NFL Level to get stronger, he's probably STILL working with his old coach... he's never been afraid to work, he was insulted.

BTW, When he was coming out, IF he had a HUGE arm, with his obvious smarts and toughness in college, he would NEVER have dropped to the 6th rd, nor had Drew fn Henson fighting him for starting QB job.
No Way No How.
He didn't, he was a slow skinny mediocre armed smart qb.

No Shame in where he was, he had EVERYTHING else you'd want, Henson was a strong armed BUM.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Burrow showed more in college with his arm though.

Macs arm isn't bad at all. It's solid. I don't know if he can make those coverage breaking throws though.


The thing that concerns me the most - and what you guys are forgetting about - is that Mac Jones wasn't being held back I think. I think he actually had a good amount of control of the playcalling and audibles. So that makes his play a little more concerning.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maybe it is the wording. Coming out of college many, rightly or wrongly, thought Brady's arm strength was poor. Not in 2003, in 1999/2000. Since so many questioned Brady's arm strength coming out of college, it is doubtful they were all wrong.

Go watch Brady's games from 2001. You can decide for yourself.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

1st year rookie at the NFL Level, without the talent disparity that he enjoyed at Bama at OL OR WR.
It's not like he had 4 stud receivers this year, he had decent players looking to move up. edit: In a tough system they didn't know- not sure Jonnu knows it now.
Lawrence was Crap, Wilson was garbage, Lance couldn't unseat JG, ànd fields couldn't unseat Perennially Mediocre Andy Dalton.


I think he did ok, but trust me, I screamed at the TV plenty (NOONE ever listens...that pisses me off! ).
Hoping for advancement this year.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I agree. Mac's big problem is he's not in total command, and so you don't see him step into throws. You kind of see him diagnose what is going on and he throws flat-footed, and it's impressive because he's pretty accurate


I want to see him step into the pocket and rifle that ball. Get a good base.

The key missing piece is crappy OLine play does not allow for proper feet for Max. Mac is lethal with enough time. Maybe stop benching their best OLine player Onwenu for 9 weeks and force-playing mediocre Wynn at LT for optics/politics. Start Trent Brown at LT and Onwenu to RT.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

He won the long throw contest in 2003. It doesn't really matter what you see..now does it? Throwing velocity is an objective measurement.

Ya, NOONE(including SCOUTS)that WATCH INTENTLY for these particular things see anything, they're all dumb.
So am I, I knew he had a suspect arm in 01, BB KNEW that Tom's BRAIN and LEADERSHIP were more important in that offense.

IF he was a WINNER(Proven), smart guy with great work/ film ethic, AND had a Huge Arm, he NEVER would have dropped to 199.

Not A Chance in hell.

Edit: Btw- I already answered this one, at that point he had 3 years of Professional Level training, and was still working on mechanics with his old QB Coach- which he's actually alluded to over the years.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

I don't recall the game, but I seem to recall Michael Bishop coming into the game to throw a Hail Mary once.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it's in my brain.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Appears that these were incorrect in some ways, but these were the thoughts on Brady coming out.

1. Scouting report
Notes: Baseball catcher and football quarterback in high school who was drafted by the Montreal Expos in the 18th round of the June 1995 baseball draft. Opted for football and redshirted at Michigan in '95. Saw limited action in '96 and '97 and started the past two years. Completed 3 of 5 passes for 26 yards, no touchdowns and one interception in '96, 12-15-103-0-0 in '97, 214-350-2,636-15-12 in '98 and 180-295-2,216-16-6 in '99, when he often shared time with super sophomore Drew Henson. Went all the way against Alabama in the Orange Bowl and completed 34-46-369-4. Unlike many Michigan quarterbacks, Brady is a pocket-type passer who plays best in a dropback-type system.

Tom Brady Positives: Good height to see the field. Very poised and composed. Smart and alert. Can read coverages. Good accuracy and touch. Produces in big spots and in big games. Has some Brian Griese in him and is a gamer. Generally plays within himself. Team leader.

Negatives: Poor build. Very skinny and narrow. Ended the '99 season weighing 195 pounds and still looks like a rail at 211. Looks a little frail and lacks great physical stature and strength. Can get pushed down more easily than you'd like. Lacks mobility and ability to avoid the rush. Lacks a really strong arm. Can't drive the ball down the field and does not throw a really tight spiral. System-type player who can get exposed if he must ad-lib and do things on his own.

2. Arm Strength: Initially thought to be Brady’s weakness, especially when entering the NFL

3.Here are comments on Brady from five talent evaluators leading up to the 2000 NFL draft:
Scout: Awful. Not even on my board. Weak. He’ll make somebody a good husband or a good medical salesman.
Scout II: Has a quick, (former Michigan QB Brian) Griese-type release.
Quarterback coach: Backup. Could be a #2 in this league for a long time. Has the size but not enough arm.
Offensive coordinator: More instinctive than (Michigan State QB Bill) Burke. Makes better decisions, makes more plays.
General manager: Like him. Just wish he was a better athlete.
4.

View attachment 40213

5. From Kiper​

Pros:​

• Smart
• Big-game signal-caller
• Efficient
• Stands tall in the pocket and doesn't get nervous
• Works through his progressions well and doesn't try to perform beyond his capability
• Brady is accurate and throws a catchable ball and knows when to take some heat off the ball when he throws it

Cons:​

• Lacks mobility
• Could have problems if forced to throw the football down the field
• Does not have the total package of skills for an NFL quarterback
• Ran a 5.24 40-yard dash
• Had a 24.5 inch vertical jump

Thanks for posting this.

I usually remember criticism being lobbied towards Brady's build, not as much with his arm. I guess he had a few more critics of his arm than I remember.

I guess we have to see in year 2 of Mac. Because Brady in 2001 still pushed the ball downfield more than we give him credit for.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm still trying to figure out why "Mac's arm is less than average. Hopefully it'll get better. He just needs to be able to make all the throws." is so threatening to people around here.

Some of what you present as established fact is vague, re. Mac's arm being "less than average" and needing "to be able to make all the throws." His passing is highly accurate, much better than average. What throws did he prove incapable of making? None I can identify. Some of his misfires blamed on "lack of arm strength" were attributable to timing issues/post-snap miscommunication. But certainly, it appears that greater arm strength is vital to his becoming a genuine difference-maker vs. capable game manager.

 

[Tunescribe]

I don't recall the game, but I seem to recall Michael Bishop coming into the game to throw a Hail Mary once.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it's in my brain.

I think that was at the end of the last game in 2000, vs. Miami in Foxboro. Both teams had left the field and were hitting the showers when refs called them back to finish the last second or two left on the clock. The Pats were behind by 3 and I think that's when Bishop was assigned to heave a Hail Mary that fell incomplete. I was at that game but like everyone else left the stadium when we thought it was over, I listened to that last play on my car radio.

 

[skinnydog]

The main reason that blurb is useless (I wouldn't even call it an "article") is the source isn't identified. People see "AFC exec" and assume it's someone of reliable authority. OK, most agree Mac needs to strengthen his arm but is it actually "weak" like this alleged exec claims? Yeah, "weak" enough to amass 3,800 yards with a 67.6 completion percentage and 15th-ranked 92.5 rating in his ROOKIE campaign. Gimme a break. And amazingly, this weakling didn't miss a single snap to injury through 18 games.

Kind of glad he came out of college with a “weak” arm. Otherwise, he would not have been the 5th QB taken and been there for the Pats to draft. That said, as of now, he has a weaker than average arm, but he seems above average in terms of accuracy. i Don’t think it’s Chad Pennington weak. Again, as of now, the lack of arm strength makes some throws more difficult and gives the defense more time to react while the ball is in the air etc. I fully expect he can work on improving that this offseason. And he already has really good touch on his throws. Some QBs with rocket arms come into the league and always throw fastballs to receivers even when they should be toning down the velocity. Jones already makes all of those sort of throws really well. With a little more arm strength, he’ll be a really complete passer. Now, if the Pats could find a way to give him a really good receiver to throw to . . .

 

[WhatJustHappened]

I think that was at the end of the last game in 2000, vs. Miami in Foxboro. Both teams had left the field and were hitting the showers when refs called them back to finish the last second or two left on the clock. The Pats were behind by 3 and I think that's when Bishop was assigned to heave a Hail Mary that fell incomplete. I was at that game but like everyone else left the stadium when we thought it was over, I listened to that last play on my car radio.

Like I said, I didn't remember the particulars(and didn't want to look it up), just that I could vaguely remember it happened.

Thanks Tune.

 

[Tunescribe]

Kind of glad he came out of college with a “weak” arm. Otherwise, he would not have been the 5th QB taken and been there for the Pats to draft. That said, as of now, he has a weaker than average arm, but he seems above average in terms of accuracy. i Don’t think it’s Chad Pennington weak. Again, as of now, the lack of arm strength makes some throws more difficult and gives the defense more time to react while the ball is in the air etc. I fully expect he can work on improving that this offseason. And he already has really good touch on his throws. Some QBs with rocket arms come into the league and always throw fastballs to receivers even when they should be toning down the velocity. Jones already makes all of those sort of throws really well. With a little more arm strength, he’ll be a really complete passer. Now, if the Pats could find a way to give him a really good receiver to throw to . . .

It might be splitting hairs, but saying his arm is "weaker than average" while having above-average accuracy doesn't compute when evaluating his season statistically. He ranked 14th in yards per attempt and averaged about 235 yards per game; overall, his QBR placed him at 15 among active quarterbacks. I'd say his arm is "average," all indicators pointing to a capable game-manager skill level. Unquestionably, improved arm strength will be required for Mac to become a genuine difference maker who can carry a team and come from behind down multiple scores.

 

[sb1]

???

Claims about Brady's arm weren't accurate. From the beginning, his arm was stronger than those who questioned it had claimed. And Brady won the distance competition of the QB challenge in 2003.

And the Brady comparison is brought up just about every time someone mentions Jones' arm strength, and has been talked over ad infinitum.

Yeah the idea Brady had a weak arm at the beginning of his career was a myth. His arm strength was always excellent.