Pondering the "Patriot Way"...

[captain stone]

I believe that only one the first year, and none the second.

In any case, a player who is even close to probowl quality in his second and third years is NOT a bust.

Being elected a "Pro-Bowler"(snicker) becomes exponentially easier after the first time,
kinda like Massachusetts politicians.
And Stomper was not then, is not now, and will not ever be even close to real Pro-Bowl quality.

Bill lost his way on that pick, plain & simple.

 

[captain stone]

Hindsight is always 20/20 in regard to taking another player in the draft, but why exactly do you feel that Meriweather was such a horrible choice?

Aside from Polamulu, no one had more turnovers caused in the AFC during the time that Meriweather was here. I don't remember a ton of character concerns like you seem to be insinuating, but I could be wrong.

Stomper was an already-known bad guy in college, e.g. this meeting of the minds v. FIU:
UM-FIU - YouTube

And to make matters worse, he wasn't the best availble player at the pick, not by a long shot.
Of course, had Bill drafted Antoine Bethea with just one of his Three 6th-rounders in 2006, then
the need to even consider Stomper in the 1st round in 2007 would have been eliminated.

 

[jmt57]

From Tom E. Curran:
Curran: Hernandez couldn't walk the walk | Comcast SportsNet - CSNNE.com

Has the Patriots’ organization cultivated the notion of a so-called “Patriots Way?”

No doubt.

Not on the football side, necessarily, where the highest compliment Bill Belichick pays a player is often “football is important to him,” but the organization has propagated the idea that they hire great young men and, when they go outside that box, it’s done very carefully with the expectation the player will come out clean after his baptism in the Patriots culture and be an upstanding citizen or be gone.

That’s what they want. That’s what they are committed to. But to succeed in the NFL, a player has to embrace the side of his personality that welcomes physical violence, extreme toughness and a “baddest man on the planet” persona. Being a sweet person is at cross-purposes with being a great football player. Many, many, many NFL players -- the vast majority -- can toggle back and forth between the two personas. They are mature enough to understand the difference, the demands of their job as professionals and the responsibilities they have to the people paying them millions.

The Patriots have a group of outstanding people on their football team. Tom Brady, Jerod Mayo, Vince Wilfork, Logan Mankins, Devin McCourty, Matt Slater, really, I could go on and on.

And they have had those players for more than a decade in an abundance. The Vrabels and Bruschis and Phifers. The Harrisons, Izzos and Lights.

They have also had players who grew up and grew into their maturity. Willie McGinest being the most prime example, in my opinion.

They have a lot of players who seem to have more character than I had at 25. And probably more than I had at 40, too.

But it’s not going to be universal. Never can be. And pretending it is, and wearing your moral superiority on your sleeve is whistling past the graveyard. It also is going to make folks take a certain amount of glee when that narrative blows up in your face.​

 

[patsfanincleveland]

From Tom E. Curran:
Curran: Hernandez couldn't walk the walk | Comcast SportsNet - CSNNE.com

Has the Patriots’ organization cultivated the notion of a so-called “Patriots Way?”

No doubt.

Not on the football side, necessarily, where the highest compliment Bill Belichick pays a player is often “football is important to him,” but the organization has propagated the idea that they hire great young men and, when they go outside that box, it’s done very carefully with the expectation the player will come out clean after his baptism in the Patriots culture and be an upstanding citizen or be gone.

That’s what they want. That’s what they are committed to. But to succeed in the NFL, a player has to embrace the side of his personality that welcomes physical violence, extreme toughness and a “baddest man on the planet” persona. Being a sweet person is at cross-purposes with being a great football player. Many, many, many NFL players -- the vast majority -- can toggle back and forth between the two personas. They are mature enough to understand the difference, the demands of their job as professionals and the responsibilities they have to the people paying them millions.

The Patriots have a group of outstanding people on their football team. Tom Brady, Jerod Mayo, Vince Wilfork, Logan Mankins, Devin McCourty, Matt Slater, really, I could go on and on.

And they have had those players for more than a decade in an abundance. The Vrabels and Bruschis and Phifers. The Harrisons, Izzos and Lights.

They have also had players who grew up and grew into their maturity. Willie McGinest being the most prime example, in my opinion.

They have a lot of players who seem to have more character than I had at 25. And probably more than I had at 40, too.

But it’s not going to be universal. Never can be. And pretending it is, and wearing your moral superiority on your sleeve is whistling past the graveyard. It also is going to make folks take a certain amount of glee when that narrative blows up in your face.​

Haters gonna hate.

Considering how little the organization talks.......Curran is self projecting.

That's why the media loves the Ravens and Jets so much.

Those goons never shut up.

 

[supafly]

Stomper was an already-known bad guy in college, e.g. this meeting of the minds v. FIU:
UM-FIU - YouTube

And to make matters worse, he wasn't the best availble player at the pick, not by a long shot.
Of course, had Bill drafted Antoine Bethea with just one of his Three 6th-rounders in 2006, then
the need to even consider Stomper in the 1st round in 2007 would have been eliminated.

I'll definitely agree with you that Meriweather was the most controversial 1st round pick lately--possibly ever in the Belichick era, but it's hard to speculate as to how close they were to trading that pick and what other players were on their board at the time.

I don't seem to feel the same as you do regarding the "problem child" that Brandon Meriweather had proven to be prior to the selection, but I see where you're coming from at the same time. In hindsight, it's possible to think that they may have learned something from some of their mistakes in the 2006 and 2007 high round picks as they promptly traded away their 1st in 2009--only a couple of yrs later.

As long as they learn from mistakes, that's really all that matters to me, but I at the time I don't remember there being quite as much controversy (aside from the fight/helmet stomping incident) in terms of him being a bad character player or guy.

 

[mgteich]

I strongly disagree. 2007 was an awful draft. We needed a safety. Meriweather was solid value. After all, he made the Pro-Bowl twice (once as an alternate). I believe that he was considered a solid pick in all the re-drafts.

He would have been draft higher, except for the two incidents. Both were thoroughly investigated by the patriots.

Brandon Meriweather, Miami (Fla.), NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Personally, I think that pick was NOT controversial at the time, or in hindsight, although one can almost always find a better pick in hindsight.

If you want to discuss controversial picks, I would suggest the first round tight end picks as better candidates than Meriweather,

I'll definitely agree with you that Meriweather was the most controversial 1st round pick lately--possibly ever in the Belichick era, but it's hard to speculate as to how close they were to trading that pick and what other players were on their board at the time.

I don't seem to feel the same as you do regarding the "problem child" that Brandon Meriweather had proven to be prior to the selection, but I see where you're coming from at the same time. In hindsight, it's possible to think that they may have learned something from some of their mistakes in the 2006 and 2007 high round picks as they promptly traded away their 1st in 2009--only a couple of yrs later.

As long as they learn from mistakes, that's really all that matters to me, but I at the time I don't remember there being quite as much controversy (aside from the fight/helmet stomping incident) in terms of him being a bad character player or guy.

 

[supafly]

I strongly disagree. 2007 was an awful draft. We needed a safety. Meriweather was solid value. After all, he made the Pro-Bowl twice (once as an alternate). I believe that he was considered a solid pick in all the re-drafts.

He would have been draft higher, except for the two incidents. Both were thoroughly investigated by the patriots.

Brandon Meriweather, Miami (Fla.), NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Personally, I think that pick was NOT controversial at the time, or in hindsight, although one can almost always find a better pick in hindsight.

If you want to discuss controversial picks, I would suggest the first round tight end picks as better candidates than Meriweather,

The first round TE picks as in who? Ben Watson? Who else was taken in the first round? And why would Watson be a "controversial" pick in the sense that I'm using in terms of character?

Basically, if you re-read my posts in this thread I think you will see that we are strongly in agreement. All I'm saying to Captain Stone is that I can agree with and respect the fact that Meriweather's choice may have been the most controversial recent pick character-wise in round one, especially considering that we've been taking captains, 4 yr starters, and high character guys in the majority of the years.

I was actually the one that pointed out first the fact that there wasn't much contoversy surrounding the Meriweather pick in terms of his character concerns, hence my quote of : "at the time I don't remember there being quite as much controversy (aside from the fight/helmet stomping incident) in terms of him being a bad character player or guy."

And that was just in the post that you were responding to. I had much more to say on behalf of the team's pick on the last page. Basically, I find nothing wrong with it--but at the same time I can respect his opinion that it at least was probably "the most controversial pick in terms of character issues" in the Belichick era. If it wasn't in the entire Belichick era, it at the very least was lately. I don't remember anyone else that was that controversial, especially not Watson, unless your definition of 'controversial' is just by production and need alone, where we'd be having two completely different discussions.

There's no doubt that 07 was a poor draft, and we had a need at the position. I was actually the one who pointed that out on the last page.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Haters gonna hate.

Considering how little the organization talks.......Curran is self projecting.

That's why the media loves the Ravens and Jets so much.

Those goons never shut up.

Well said.
The opposition is going to take glee for anything that sees the Patriots fall. The Patriots win WAY more than their share. That in itself is going to cause hostility. That in itself is going to cause glee over anything that causes a Patriot stumble. The Patriots could draft/sign nothing but the most upstanding and law abiding types, certify every player with the Boy Scouts of America. If they still win too often they will fault the Patriots for that fact too. I'd bet there would be articles about the high and mighty Patriots deserve their fall from their moral high horse for not giving the less fortunate a chance. Or articles about the Patriots deserving their fall because they are not tough enough/whimpy(sic).

Right or wrong it is human nature for the team to take a PR hit regarding AH. It is understandable that the Patriot brass is going to evaluate what they did wrong and try not to make that mistake again. But I hope like hell that the AH situation doesn't cause some false and phoney 'Patriot Way' rule to infiltrate who we draft/sign. Having a few guys with "street" toughness is, imho, almost required to be successful in the NFL. And there simply is no way that every future player will never do something wrong off the field/embarrass the team. But ************! I hope that gangland murderer is never again one of those issues! Given that context, oddly, assault outside a strip club, illegal possession of a firearm or DUI (among others) seems almost acceptable.

 

[DarrylS]

Gonna cross post this from another thread..

As I was out and about yesterday, had the misfortune of listening to Mustard and Johnson, and a they entertained a caller that demanded that Kraft and Belichick come back from their vacations and address this matter via a press conference. Of course they followed along, and agreed, it was as though Kraft and BB were elected officials and we had a right to know what they knew.

Then they started to rant and rave about how if Seymour was on this team none of this would happen as he was part of the "Patriot Way", i.e. some type of enforcer. Then one of them lamented how the darkest day for the Patriots was the time that BB "benched" Seymour because he missed a friday practice after the death of his grandfather.

Of course the latter is pure hysteria and a lie, Seymour did miss the Friday practice after his grandfather's funeral, and did not start the game.. but came in on the third defensive series and was a huge force. At that time there was the mantra that no one player was bigger than the team, and this rule applied to everyone who missed a Friday practice..

So the mediots continue to lament the loss of the Patriot Way, their creation, and then criticize it because it was used effectively... this whole matter is getting dumbed down daily on the airwaves...
__________________

 

[shmessy]

Hernandez was a 1st round talent drafted in the 4th because of off-the-field issues. I think that this would have been much less likely to happen 5-7 years ago.

"With the 24th pick of the 2007 NFL draft, the New England Patriots select......Brandon Meriwether".

April 2007 was over 6 years ago.

And, there, we are talking a 1st rounder -- not a 4th.

(edit: OK, you somehow rationalized that as a screaming need position)


Let's look at another 4th round pick in the glory years like 2001:

Kenyatta Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then, how about 2006? Willie Andrews?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Andrews

Can we please dispense with the 100% incorrect statements that this kind of thing was less likely to happen with the Patriots more than 5-7 years ago?

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Well said.
The opposition is going to take glee for anything that sees the Patriots fall. The Patriots win WAY more than their share. That in itself is going to cause hostility. That in itself is going to cause glee over anything that causes a Patriot stumble. The Patriots could draft/sign nothing but the most upstanding and law abiding types, certify every player with the Boy Scouts of America. If they still win too often they will fault the Patriots for that fact too. I'd bet there would be articles about the high and mighty Patriots deserve their fall from their moral high horse for not giving the less fortunate a chance. Or articles about the Patriots deserving their fall because they are not tough enough/whimpy(sic).

Right or wrong it is human nature for the team to take a PR hit regarding AH. It is understandable that the Patriot brass is going to evaluate what they did wrong and try not to make that mistake again. But I hope like hell that the AH situation doesn't cause some false and phoney 'Patriot Way' rule to infiltrate who we draft/sign. Having a few guys with "street" toughness is, imho, almost required to be successful in the NFL. And there simply is no way that every future player will never do something wrong off the field/embarrass the team. But ************! I hope that gangland murderer is never again one of those issues! Given that context, oddly, assault outside a strip club, illegal possession of a firearm or DUI (among others) seems almost acceptable.

This about sums it up.

 

[mgteich]

As is almost always the case when we have strong disagreement, there has been a misunderstanding. I apologize for misunderstanding your position.

====
This was your comment.

"I'll definitely agree with you that Meriweather was the most controversial 1st round pick lately--possibly ever in the Belichick era,"

There are many reasons for a pick being controversial besides stomping on a player during the heat of a game. For me, this does not come close to Hernandez's gang history and his incidents. But I certainly supported/welcomes his pick in the 4th.
=====================

In 2002, the patriots badly needed a top linebacker. We traded up in the first. Surely, we were going to get a linebacker or perhaps a defensive lineman. Instead, we drafted a blocking TE, Daniel Graham. Graham had a reasonable career for us, but the pick (at the time) was MUCH, MUCH more controversial than the pick of Meriweather.

The first round TE picks as in who? Ben Watson? Who else was taken in the first round? And why would Watson be a "controversial" pick in the sense that I'm using in terms of character?

Basically, if you re-read my posts in this thread I think you will see that we are strongly in agreement. All I'm saying to Captain Stone is that I can agree with and respect the fact that Meriweather's choice may have been the most controversial recent pick character-wise in round one, especially considering that we've been taking captains, 4 yr starters, and high character guys in the majority of the years.

I was actually the one that pointed out first the fact that there wasn't much contoversy surrounding the Meriweather pick in terms of his character concerns, hence my quote of : "at the time I don't remember there being quite as much controversy (aside from the fight/helmet stomping incident) in terms of him being a bad character player or guy."

And that was just in the post that you were responding to. I had much more to say on behalf of the team's pick on the last page. Basically, I find nothing wrong with it--but at the same time I can respect his opinion that it at least was probably "the most controversial pick in terms of character issues" in the Belichick era. If it wasn't in the entire Belichick era, it at the very least was lately. I don't remember anyone else that was that controversial, especially not Watson, unless your definition of 'controversial' is just by production and need alone, where we'd be having two completely different discussions.

There's no doubt that 07 was a poor draft, and we had a need at the position. I was actually the one who pointed that out on the last page.

 

[crew1954]

Here's my bottom line on this:

The US Army has a much more stingent enrollment policy than the Patriots or any other NFL team, has way more access to all sorts of information, runs extensive psychological tests and still ends up with people like this:

US soldier goes on trial for Afghan civilian murders | Law | guardian.co.uk

Every Police department in the US vets applicants much more thoroughly than the NFL including much more extensive psycholigical profiles and still they miss people like:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/n...lty-in-cannibal-case.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

These organizations, with many more resources, miss these types, with the stakes much higher when they miss: police officers and soldiers are granted the means and authority to kill others. In addition soldiers and escpecially LE officers have much longer careers than the 2-3-4 year average for NFL players

Yet people are expecting an organization of entertainers, the Patriots, to do a better job.

 

[supafly]

As is almost always the case when we have strong disagreement, there has been a misunderstanding. I apologize for misunderstanding your position.

No problem, mg. If anything I certainly also apologize if I came off as representing both sides.

That wasn't my intent, it was just to let Captain Stone know that I did agree with part of his analysis and to meet him halfway a bit.

Either way, we definitely agree on the big picture. I don't believe that Meriweather's criticism now was nearly anywhere on the same level at the time that it happened (much like Hernandez actually).