PFT: Bill "has shopped" Mac

[PatsSince74]

“Protective of his cronies to a fault”

Yes, so protective that the two “cronies” you reference have either been demoted or entirely let go.

Go ahead and figure that one out.

How did we manage to get from: “Mac reportedly struggled with hard coaching going back to 2021, his rookie season” … to this?

Whew - TLDR follows...
Wading thru all these comments on a rumor, finding some interesting guesswork, & interesting factual comparisons, has been - interesting.
Granted that this time of year needs (?) drama to fill up space, it's also true of all organizations - sports, military, business - that losing tends to bring out negativity in participants.
Food for gossip?
Winning doesn't quite make everyone involved a genius, but, certainly weaknesses or blunders are forgiven.
Also forgotten may be how much trial-&-error goes into winning, the costs & lapses.
Personnel decisions, totally considered, are the most complex & difficult to make for any group that competes for rewards.
I wish someone would do up a spreadsheet to track, let's say, all NFL GM's trades/drafts/cuts/extensions, etc., for the past 25 years.
Use a simple metric, like "made the 53-man roster," started x-number of games, lasted x-years with that team.
Or something similar.
So much "modern" stats are based on assumptions, when you look at them closely.
&, of course, how well have DVOA, DYAR, EPA, etc., actually predicted results?
How about a spreadsheet for Draft Experts, prediction vs players actually taken - & those players' success?
Discussing & ranting about "our" Patriots is a fine pastime; just shows (I hope) that we love football generally & the Pats especially.
3 overlooked points (?):
1. Who does Robt. Kraft think will coach better than Bill Belichick? &, per the possible above GM comparison, who's been better at personnel?
2. RK as Owner always has a "higher authority," just like a military commander - Pats fans, especially season tkt. holders, advertisers, in a sense, all of us (just as Joint Chiefs have Congress, public opinion, press). An Owner's statements have multilevel meanings.
3. The (elsewhere discussed) near-failure of a 2022 consistent offensive line would seem imho to be the one really valid failure of BB as GM.
& Yes, Mac can't lead by indulging his emotions, even if due to a good competitive drive.
& Yes, the MP/JJ coaching experiment failed.
We note the years of BB criticisms that he's too rigid, Patriot Way is for the past, etc.
So, he experiments with a fully collaborative OC approach; & rejects it (not mid-season, which would be truly stupid). He trusts smart people he knows well - don't we all?
Great leaders have different styles, some nicer than others; they are judged by results.
All whom I've ever observed run a tight ship; anything else destroys morale - & tough, positive morale is exactly what is required for the inevitable tough times.
As incredibly hard as it is to build a winning organization, getting it thru the inevitable losses & back to winning in a new environment is probably harder.
6 SB's deserves maybe gratitude forever?
TB/BB/RK trio unique & deserve our thanks.
Perhaps RK, in a sense, most deserving imho, chain of command starts w/ him.
My guess is BB would agree, if pressed on the point.
& no diminishing TB - but imagine him w/ another HC?
Or, say, Aaron Rodgers w/ BB?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

There have been confirmations to a few journalists now that there were indeed trade discussions.

I saw more journalists denying there were any trade discussions than the few confirming trade discussions.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Thanks for recommending Dom Easily, Mikey...Great job there... Did you pound the table for Glitch Richards & Cyrus the Virus too?

Yes. He admitted to Cyrus, I do not know about Richards.

 

[50-yard-line]

2020 = 7-9
2021 = 10-8
2022 = 8-9

Compare the rosters. There are lots of factors in records. 2020 might have been BB's best "coaching" year. Last year was, by most accounts, the Pats WORST coaching year.
Talent-wise, depth-wise, age-wise, do you really think the Pats roster isn't better?

Pretty much the same results. The jury is still out on the talent level being higher right now. TBD.


You named the top 3 QBs in the NFL so of course they're better than everyone else. But the remaining list of true franchise QBs is a lot longer than just Rodgers and Herbert. Add Hurts, Jackson, Watson, Lawrence, Murray, Cousins, Stafford, Tua, Dak, and Fields. Perhaps Geno, Goff, and Carr as well? We'll see too if Payton doesn't rejuvenate Wilson.

Which is my point - everyone you named could win a Superbowl, and then so could Purdy, Mac, Zappe, etc. We just don't know yet.

Sorry, your argument isn't valid when you remove the QB who won 30% of the Super Bowls over the last 23 years. Especially considering he did it with 100% roster turnover in New England and finally with a different franchise. Add in the other elite QBs you're conceding and you're up to 52%.

That's exactly my entire argument, though. Brady/BB was an outlier, a unicorn (although Reid/Mahomes? Book's not in yet). If not for Brady/BB/Patriots, this new argument that only the very best QB, as opposed to team, can get there in the "new" NFL. The QB is more important than before, but as YOU show below, even guys we think of as chumps can get on a roll and win it all.
Which is the whole point of my post.

Roethlisberger is a HOF QB... does that count as elite?

Eli will get HOF consideration. Personally I'm not putting him in the HOF but he beat the Patriots twice, he played great in his two SB postseasons, and overall he was an excellent postseason QB.

Flacco had one of the best postseason runs of any QB in the history of the league in 2012.

You're underrating Russell Wilson. He may have choked in SB 49 but he was an elite franchise QB in Seattle.

Peyton 50, Brad Johnson, and Dilfer all won with historically great defenses (which is much rarer than elite QBs over the last 23 years).

Consider all QB participants in the SB over the last 23 years and then your argument really falls apart because you're adding Brady x3, Peyton x2, Warner x2, Mahomes, Burrow, Hurts, Ryan (in an MVP season), Gannon (in an MVP season), etc.

I think you missed my point by a country mile.

 

[RIpats88]

It's still amazing to me that people can still blame Mac 100% for last year now knowing what we know about the Patricia/judge debacle.

The amount of dysfunction would be hard for a veteran QB let alone a 2nd year QB. The question is did they ruin him for good.

It's clear by Krafts comments and the fact that they brought in O'Brien to have autonomy to overhaul the offense that Patricia/judge were the main problems.

Now it's make or break time.

 

[Love The Drake]

So here it goes Mac Jones doesn’t have any elite traits.
Why do we we think he is a genius offensively what has been proven to show that.

Facts

. He’s not an elite, good or ok scrambler.
. Movement in the pocket abysmal.
. Toughness when getting hit well if he can’t scramble and he can’t use the pocket like Brady could that will mean he will get hit. Is he able to take that extra second knowing he will get hit yet deliver a clutch pass no.
. Can he make all the throws when the pocket is perfect no.
. Does he have the clutch gene when the chips are down he puts the team on his back and wins. Nope
. Does he elevate the players around him? Nope
. Does he listen to his coaches and respect the chain of command nope.
. Can his head coach trust him big nope.
. Does he manipulate a defense with his eyes? No
. Does he quickly go thru his progressions scanning the field? Nope
So we established his weaknesses let’s talk about his strengths.

. Competitor, doesn’t like to lose.
. Accurate with the football with his lack of throwing power he has a nitch of floating the ball in a spot where his receiver has the best chance to make the play on the ball.
. Likeable his teammates and rival players think he’s a great guy.
. Lead Alabama to many victories including a championship.
Now the caveat is that team was stacked and I saw an article that said that Bama team had arguably more talent than the Pats hard to argue that.
. Has decent height, size for the position.
. Works out we can see he’s not Levis in the weight room but he did lose his beer belly and we have to give him credit for that.

What do we have in him?

If Obrein is committed to stay 3 to 4 years Obrein can reel in the mechanics with the footwork issues, put solid game plans together and demand respect he will not be treated like Matty P.

What is this worth?

In my opinion Mac is a JAG
You can find this kid of talent and attributes in the mid late rounds of the draft.
Matter of fact if Mac played for almost any other program his limitations would of been on full display and he would of been a mid to late round draft pick.

I wouldn’t commit more than 10 mill a season to the kid because I believe the drop off between him and Zappe or a mid round rookie is next to non existent.

I’m a huge proponent that you don’t pay for mediocre talent just because you drafted it.

I don’t put a QB on a second contract without them being a top 10 caliber player.

In my opinion if we can get a third for Mac we take it and say thank you because putting him on a second contract will hold the franchise back.

 

[Love The Drake]

@archstanton543

Where are the lies in my assessment.
Respectfully it may be hard to see but where am I wrong?

 

[archstanton543]

@archstanton543

Where are the lies in my assessment.
Respectfully it may be hard to see but where am I wrong?

There would be no QB's in the league if mediocre talent didn't get second and third contracts. I'm not going to rehash what others have said, but you can win with mediocre talent at QB.

And we don't know for sure what Mac's ceiling is because he was set up to fail in his second year. We'll have a better idea this year but even then we may not know. Finding a good QB is hard. Finding an elite QB is extremely hard. If the Pats released Mac tomorrow, he'd be signed by another team so fast, it would make your head spin.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

It's still amazing to me that people can still blame Mac 100% for last year now knowing what we know about the Patricia/judge debacle.

The amount of dysfunction would be hard for a veteran QB let alone a 2nd year QB. The question is did they ruin him for good.

It's clear by Krafts comments and the fact that they brought in O'Brien to have autonomy to overhaul the offense that Patricia/judge were the main problems.

Now it's make or break time.

Who blames Mac 100% for last year?

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

“The idea that he’s shopping Mac is against everything he would do. But if somebody comes to him and says, ‘I’ll give you a one for Mac,’ does that mean he’s shopping him? No, that just means somebody asked the question. I think we’re in a semantic issue here.” — former NFL GM and Patriots assistant Michael Lombardi, speaking about Bill Belichick’s process, on “The GM Shuffle” podcast

 

[n1997y]

It's still amazing to me that people can still blame Mac 100% for last year now knowing what we know about the Patricia/judge debacle.

it’s crazy to blame Mac 100% for last year. But nobody is doing that.

it‘s crazy to give Mac a total pass for crapping the bed last year. But people are doing that.

 

[RIpats88]

it’s crazy to blame Mac 100% for last year. But nobody is doing that.

it‘s crazy to give Mac a total pass for crapping the bed last year. But people are doing that.

Are they though? I don't see anyone giving Mac a total pass. Just that it's hard to have an accurate picture given what else was around him at the time.

I do see a lot more people who week after week post about how bad he is and how zappe has to start.

 

[Crazy World of Troy Brown]

Click on this.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Click on this.

Yeah, Cousins did it with multiple contracts, 6 or 7. Lamar wants 1 contract to fully guarantee the whole amount. Lamar is obviously a better QB, but good enough for $240M guaranteed in 1 contract? That is the question.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Yeah, Cousins did it with multiple contracts, 6 or 7. Lamar wants 1 contract to fully guarantee the whole amount. Lamar is obviously a better QB, but good enough for $240M guaranteed in 1 contract? That is the question.

He has his mother as his agent, that's helping matters. It would be a shame if he didn't play this year over the contract issues. How much money do you need? And if he stays somewhat healthy, he'll make a boatload of money over his career.

 

[Ross12]

“The idea that he’s shopping Mac is against everything he would do. But if somebody comes to him and says, ‘I’ll give you a one for Mac,’ does that mean he’s shopping him? No, that just means somebody asked the question. I think we’re in a semantic issue here.” — former NFL GM and Patriots assistant Michael Lombardi, speaking about Bill Belichick’s process, on “The GM Shuffle” podcast

Now that quote makes me wonder if someone offered a one. Lombardi might know

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Now that quote makes me wonder if someone offered a one. Lombardi might know

Mac is not that good - you have to project to think Mac is going to be Top 10. I think Mac will be Top 10, even possibly peak at Top 5 IMO, but that is all projection, hope more than anything predictable. I value mental ability, 'reading defenses' and 'seeing the whole field', over physical ability, but there is so much involved in QBing. I doubt anyone is offering a 1st for Mac - it is a huge gamble at this point.

Overall it is all BS in my opinion. Everyone likes to "guess" about the Pats. Why? Because they know BB and the Krafts will not ever formally deny rumors so they are free to spout BS and never get called out about it.

 

[Ross12]

Mac is not that good - you have to project to think Mac is going to be Top 10. I think Mac will be Top 10, even possibly peak at Top 5 IMO, but that is all projection, hope more than anything predictable. I value mental ability, 'reading defenses' and 'seeing the whole field', over physical ability, but there is so much involved in QBing. I doubt anyone is offering a 1st for Mac - it is a huge gamble at this point.

Overall it is all BS in my opinion. Everyone likes to "guess" about the Pats. Why? Because they know BB and the Krafts will not ever formally deny rumors so they are free to spout BS and never get called out about it.

I agree with you, I doubt anyone offered a first, but it's an interesting comment. Maybe a team late in the first? Minnesota if they move on from Cousins? Tampa? Still, unlikely.

 

[Ross12]

I saw this tweet in this morning's Sunday column from Mike Reiss, it's good to see from Mac and makes you doubt he's trying to leave town. (What's up with the kid in the Nick Foles jersey though, come on man...)

 

[Love The Drake]

I saw this tweet in this morning's Sunday column from Mike Reiss, it's good to see from Mac and makes you doubt he's trying to leave town. (What's up with the kid in the Nick Foles jersey though, come on man...)

This is also positive PR for whatever teams he may be trying to appeal to.