Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this year

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Your premise assumes BB believes he can keep getting hits on the late first rounders that he has traded away. Clearly they have been far from perfect but I think the trading down method has worked better than most teams draft methods and over the long run has served the team well.

My premise is that his first round choices have delivered production to date, while his later round choices have been much more of a mixed bag. Now, if you wanted to project forward, you could either point to the idea of falling back to the mean, or you could point to the string of successes as indicative of future performance. The way you look at it will determine what you choose as a preference. I think that BB's earned the credit of his first round picks, which means I'd rather not risk the trade down(s) at this point, because the draft tallies for rounds two and three have been spotty for as far back as 2006.

I am in the minority who think if Belicheck can trade either first round pick for a first round pick next year and a second this year he should take it and run. I think the second rounders he as picked over the last few years have been pretty good - Gronk, Chung, Spikes

I don't know about majority or minority but, if you're going to talk about second rounders, talk about all of them:

Vereen - MIA
Dowling - MIA
Cunningham - MIA
Brace - MIA
Butler - Gone
Wheatley - Gone
Gronk
Spikes
Chung
Vollmer


100% > 40%, and the percentage gets much worse on the defensive side of the ball when you look at it by unit (2 for 7). And, since it's the defensive side of the ball that needs the upgrading, that's not a good sign at all. The numbers just don't bear out the idea that dropping down is a good choice right now. Whether they can flip those numbers, and whether Vereen/Dowling can alter those numbers going forward, are questions we won't know until sometime in the next few years.

And the 3rd round is where it hits the skids, with a 1 for 7 production hit (Ridley).

 

[aabtec]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Free agency is before the draft. He'll pick through the free agents and then look at the draft board. I doubt he feels any particular pressure about the draft.

He needs to find players. They don't need to be found via the draft.

Bingo. They do need to find players. The fact of the matter is the big $$$'s are not in the Upper Bowl of the stadium but in the Corporate Suites and the lower bowl with Corporate season tickets.

I know of two companies that are not going to renew their Corporate Boxes/Suites. They did the cost benefit analysis and decided to get Corporate Boxes/suites at the garden. They have more opportunities to entertain clients at the Bruins/Celtics games.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Come on, now.... This team just got beat largely because it had a bunch of steaming piles all over the defensive side of the ball and couldn't stop a struggling Giants team down the stretch. The trade down route has been an absolute disaster on the defensive side of the ball.

In the Super Bowl,

in a dome,

on a fast turf

those "steaming piles" held Manning to ONE more point than they scored

in a cold rain,

on the west coast,

against arguably the best defense in the NFL in the NFCCG.

They held the Giants offense to 17 LESS points than they scored on the road, outdoors, against a HUGELY talented but underperforming Clay Matthews, BJ Raji and Charles Woodson.

Go ahead and keep drumming your wrong drumbeat.

 

[Sydney]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Pressure? Not a chance. BB never was and never will be the guy that doesn't look for value. If that value happens to be in high draft picks then he will do it, but that's only an if. I expect him to be aggressive this offseason, but more likely in the sense of free agency or trades. We could still use an elite defensive end, OLB, wide out, and anyone in the secondary. You can have a mentally tough group of overachievers and it is certainly possible to win it all like that, but I think BB is tired of the limitations. We are still rebuilding and that was more apparent than ever when we parted ways with guys like Sanders and Meriweather earlier this year. With Brady this team will never be out of contention, but there is a lot we can do to improve our chances.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

In the Super Bowl,

in a dome,

on a fast turf

those "steaming piles" held Manning to ONE more point than they scored

in a cold rain,

on the west coast,

against arguably the best defense in the NFL in the NFCCG.

They held the Giants offense to 17 LESS points than they scored on the road, outdoors, against a HUGELY talented but underperforming Clay Matthews, BJ Raji and Charles Woodson.

Go ahead and keep drumming your wrong drumbeat.

Try actually reading the entire post chain before spouting off. It'll make you look less silly.

 

[BB4PRez]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

My premise is that his first round choices have delivered production to date, while his later round choices have been much more of a mixed bag. Now, if you wanted to project forward, you could either point to the idea of falling back to the mean, or you could point to the string of successes as indicative of future performance. The way you look at it will determine what you choose as a preference. I think that BB's earned the credit of his first round picks, which means I'd rather not risk the trade down(s) at this point, because the draft tallies for rounds two and three have been spotty for as far back as 2006.



I don't know about majority or minority but, if you're going to talk about second rounders, talk about all of them:

Vereen - MIA
Dowling - MIA
Cunningham - MIA
Brace - MIA
Butler - Gone
Wheatley - Gone
Gronk
Spikes
Chung
Vollmer


100% > 40%, and the percentage gets much worse on the defensive side of the ball when you look at it by unit (2 for 7). And, since it's the defensive side of the ball that needs the upgrading, that's not a good sign at all. The numbers just don't bear out the idea that dropping down is a good choice right now. Whether they can flip those numbers, and whether Vereen/Dowling can alter those numbers going forward, are questions we won't know until sometime in the next few years.

And the 3rd round is where it hits the skids, with a 1 for 7 production hit (Ridley).

Your analyis is incorrect. First 100% in the first round is not true. Maroney and Meariweather were misses.

Since 2006

Maroney - gone
Meariweather - gone
(no pick in 2009)
McCourty
Mayo
Solder

You can add Welker as an 07 2nd. Second you chose the % analysis knowing the actual numbers do not play out. The Pats presently have 5 starting caliber players from second round picks and 4 guys who are on the roster. Over the same time period they have 3 starters in the first.

Meariweather and Maroney both had value, but they are gone. Even without adding Welker as a 2nd in that time period the Pats are getting more roster contibuters by trading down. Also to early to call Varreen and Dowling mistakes.

Misses will happen. By trading down the pats are getting twice the players to take a shot at. If BB didn't think it was working he wouldn't continue to do it. Perhaps BB's greatest strength is that he is not afraid to cut a high round draft pick if the guy was a mistake. I plan on rooting for this team for a long time and trading down has proven to be the better long term strategy.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Your analyis is incorrect.

No, it's not

Firt 100% in the first round is not true. maroney and Meariweather were misses.

No, they weren't. Reading is important, and context matters.

You can add Welker as an 07 2nd.

No, you can't.

Second you chose the % analysis knowing the actual numbers do not play out. The Pats presently have 5 starting caliber players from second round picks and 4 guys who are on the roster. Over the same time period they have 3 starters in the first.

This point is meaningless in context, as you must know. Your numbers are also off, since I was (a) talking about a limited time frame, and (b) noting productive choices, not just players who were currently on the roster.

Meariweather and Maroney both had value, but they are gone.

Irrelevant to the point made

Even without adding Welker as a 2nd in that time period the Pats are getting more roster contibuters by trading down.

Absolutely untrue.

Also to early to call Varreen and Dowling mistakes.

Read what I actually wrote about them instead of just making an assumption.

Misses will happen. By trading down the pats are getting twice the players to take a shot at. If BB didn't think it was working the wouldn't do it. Perhaps BB's greatest strength is that he is not afraid to cut a high round draft pick if the guy was a mistake.

Your first point is misleading, which you surely know, and BB's not always right, as the defensive picks have demonstrated. As for BB's greatest strength, you can't make that argument and still call Meriweather and Maroney misses. You're contradicting yourself there, since they were starters until they got axed.

I plan on rooting for this team for a long time and trading down has proven to be the better long term strategy.

No, it hasn't.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

People still in denial about this defense, that amazes me. NY's shortest drive was 9 plays long. Not one single 3 and out.

 

[Jlaff]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

People still in denial about this defense, that amazes me. NY's shortest drive was 9 plays long. Not one single 3 and out.

The defense did spend almost the entire first quarter on the field. Way to start out tired..

 

[PatsFan24]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

He feels no pressure.

How do you know this?

 

[PatsFan24]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

A struggling giants team?? They won the Super Bowl. How many of you are still drinking?

 

[BB4PRez]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

No, it's not



No, they weren't.



No, you can't.



This point is meaningless in context, as you must know.



Irrelevant to the point made




Absolutely untrue.



Read what I actually wrote about them instead of just making an assumption.



Your first point is misleading, as you must know, and BB's not always right, as the defensive picks have demonstrated. As for BB's greatest strength, you can't make that argument and still call Meriweather and Maroney misses. You're contradicting yourself there, since they were starters until they got axed.



No, it hasn't.

Maroney and Meariweather are not on the roster and certainly would not be picked again with hindsight. Maroney is out of the league and Meariweather is riding the bench. Vareen, Dowling, Cunningham and Brace are not washed out yet.

If the Pats trade a second round pick to pick up a restricted free agent like a Welker I see a value to having that second round pick. You say you no - that doesn't make sense.

I have not contradicted myself. The premise is simply that drafting mistakes will happen. They may happen on a lower percentage of the time with higher picks but they still happen and if you double the number of picks you are adding more value to the team over the long term.

The fact that your replies are supported by no reasoning tells me you are not worth the time.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

No, it's not



No, they weren't. Reading is important, and context matters.



No, you can't.




Irrelevant to the point made




Absolutely untrue.



Read what I actually wrote about them instead of just making an assumption.







No, it hasn't.

The typical Deus Irae post.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

The typical Deus Irae post.

..... followed by the typically useless Shmessy response.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

Maroney and Meariweather are not on the roster and certainly would not be picked again with hindsight. Maroney is out of the league and Meariweather is riding the bench. Vareen, Dowling, Cunningham and Brace are not washed out yet.

None of that is relevant to the discussion of which players gave real production. Whether you think they're dreamy in 2011+ or not, Meriweather and Maroney had legitimate productive years for the team. None of the second round quartets you mention above did that. The closest those second rounders come is Cunningham, who wasn't productive but flashed a time or two.

If the Pats trade a second round pick to pick up a restricted free agent like a Welker I see a value to having that second round pick. You say you no - that doesn't make sense.

Welker wasn't a draft pick. It's really simple. He was a restricted free agent who ended up being a traded player. Furthermore, what the hell would that have to do with a trade down?

I have not contradicted myself. The premise is simply that drafting mistakes will happen. They may happen on a lower percentage of the time with higher picks but they still happen and if you double the number of picks you are adding more value to the team over the long term.

You did contradict yourself, and I noted how. It's not my fault that you didn't bother to read the analysis I did (particularly the "production" part which was the entire basis of it) and just jumped in half-****ed.

The fact that your replies are supported by no reasoning tells me you are not worth the time.

My replies are reasoned. Your claims are mostly wrong, some with you posting them despite knowing them to be wrong. Welker, seriously?

 

[shmessy]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

..... followed by the typically useless Shmessy response.

You wrote:

"Come on, now.... This team just got beat largely because it had a bunch of steaming piles all over the defensive side of the ball and couldn't stop a struggling Giants team down the stretch. The trade down route has been an absolute disaster on the defensive side of the ball."

I responded, showing CLEARLY that the patriots defense wasn't the problem during the SB. In fact, the Patriots defense actually performed better given the circumstances than any other team's defense did in the playoffs this year against the Giants.

You responded with the bewildering "Try actually reading the entire post chain before spouting off. It'll make you look less silly."

Uh, no Deus. You made a statement about the Pats defense. I clearly showed that to be erroneous. Then you somehow point in another direction and say - - 'hey look at that!'.

You can't defend the silliness of your original statement about the "steaming piles" of the Pats defense not being asble to stop the "struggling" Giants offense.

But I'm sure you'll respond with something substantive as always like "No, you're wrong."

You're empty words.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

My replies are reasoned. Your claims are mostly wrong, some with you posting them despite knowing them to be wrong. Welker, seriously?

No.

BB4Prez hit the nail on the head. Your modus operandi is to make statements without giving rational.

It's empty and worthless.

 

[PittPatriot]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

People still in denial about this defense, that amazes me. NY's shortest drive was 9 plays long. Not one single 3 and out.

The bottom line is they did not surrender points (or at least a minimal number of points).
If you are looking for a shut out from this (I know you can't possibly be) then they are sorry to disappoint.
The Patriots are built to score 30 and surrender less than 30. The defense did their job. Once again…the offense could not come through and score in the games most critical moments. We've rehashed Patriots football 2005 to current in this board - each year it ends with the offense performing well below their averages on the year…or unable to pick up a critical 1st down in 4th quarter (2006 AFCCG). I am not saying this defense does not need upgrading - but I am proud of their performed in SB46.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

You wrote:

"Come on, now.... This team just got beat largely because it had a bunch of steaming piles all over the defensive side of the ball and couldn't stop a struggling Giants team down the stretch. The trade down route has been an absolute disaster on the defensive side of the ball."

I responded, showing CLEARLY that the patriots defense wasn't the problem during the SB. In fact, the Patriots defense actually performed better given the circumstances than any other team's defense did in the playoffs this year against the Giants.

You responded with the bewildering "Try actually reading the entire post chain before spouting off. It'll make you look less silly."

Uh, no Deus. You made a statement about the Pats defense. I clearly showed that to be erroneous. Then you somehow point in another direction and say - - 'hey look at that!'.

You can't defend the silliness of your original statement about the "steaming piles" of the Pats defense not being asble to stop the "struggling" Giants offense.

But I'm sure you'll respond with something substantive as always like "No, you're wrong."

You're empty words.

If you watched the game, you know that the defense failed to stop the Giants down the stretch, which is what I posted. Therefore, you know that part of my comment was correct.

I'm sorry that you can't handle that.


Furthermore, we were in the midst of discussing the problems with the drafting strategy, and I was noting the issues with the defensive drafting that led to the safety/corner situation, among others. I'm sorry if you couldn't figure that out. Perhaps remedial English would be a good idea for you.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Peter King, when asked if BB feels "pressure" to use all his draft picks this yea

The bottom line is they did not surrender points (or at least a minimal number of points).
If you are looking for a shut out from this (I know you can't possibly be) then they are sorry to disappoint.
The Patriots are built to score 30 and surrender less than 30. The defense did their job. Once again…the offense could not come through and score in the games most critical moments. We've rehashed Patriots football 2005 to current in this board - each year it ends with the offense performing well below their averages on the year. I am not saying this defense does not need upgrading - but I am proud of their performed in SB46.

Bingo.

If someone told me before the SB that the Pats defense would give up 21 points to the Giants, I would gladly grab that scenario.

That was the least the Giants scored in the playoffs other than during a storm outdoors in SF against the best D in the NFL. And THAT was merely one point less.

The Patriots D put in the BEST performance of any of the 4 teams that faced the Giants in the playoffs.

Anyone stating that the Pats giving up 21 points to the Giants in a dome as the reason why they lost should have their heads examined.