Pats have Slowest Skill Position Players - Why it May not Matter

[Deus Irae]

Well, that might be the dumbest thing I've read this year. And I usually kinda like Perry, but man, that was Roseanne Barr's "She Devil" bad.

That's quite possibly the meanest thing anyone's ever posted on this board.

 

[JMC00]

 

[Joker]

That's quite possibly the meanest thing anyone's ever posted on this board.

obviously you've forgotten thousands of my screeds over the years here at PF...and that's OK...I'm a kinder , gentler Joe these days...

 

[tasmlab]

0.1 second difference between number 1 and number 32 looks like close to parity to me.

 

[Scotty]

Thought this thread would be well into double figures by now , maybe its a slow "burner"

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Quickness is more important than speed, unless you're a track and field sprinter.

 

[DarrylS]

"Last year, @MoveTheSticks dug up old 40 times", are the operative words here.. how old are "old 40 times"?? When did they gather the #'s at the NFL combine in whatever year they went?? Some of these so called "scribes" need to qualify their source, as his conclusion seems somewhat foolish..

 

[SlowGettingUp]

This PFF analysis suggests Pats have very strong receiver and blocking talent when measure by WAR:

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[Steve102]

This kind of media coverage is where I want a "meh" emoji.

I am not even clicking it. Who cares? Show me some games. cheezus.

 

[mgteich]

Is our position that we are just as happy having the players with the slowest times as we would be with players with average or relatively fast times.

This discussion seems to be similar to discussion of player's Wonderlic tests. Are they the best determination of football smarts? Of course not! Would you really be just as happy with a team with the lowest average score, rather than a team with an average score, or an score above average.

 

[Wozzy]

Damiere Byrd is one of the fastest guys in the NFL, Cam can't throw it in the ocean... so a small WR is worthless.

As is a really big jumpball WR who needs the ball put where only he can get it. I really wish we had super fast and quick players like AJ Brown instead of N'Keal Harry...

N'Keal Harry
Height: 6027
Weight: 225
40 Yrd Dash: 4.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 27
Vertical Jump: 38.5
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.28
3-Cone Drill: 7.05

AJ Brown
Height: 6004
Weight: 226
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 36.5
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.25
3-Cone Drill: 7.00

Mike Evans
Height: 6046
Weight: 231
40 Yrd Dash: 4.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 37.0
Broad Jump: 00'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.08

Mike Williams
Height: 6036
Weight: 218
40 Yrd Dash: 4.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 15
Vertical Jump: 32.5
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle:
3-Cone Drill:

Before anyone mentions that I need to look at AJ Brown's production, tell me what Brown did with Marcus Mariota at QB... nothing is the answer. As soon as Tannehill became the starter AJ Brown transformed into a stud. WR's don't pass to themselves, this isn't to say Harry will turn into Brown with a great passer like we hope Mac Jones will become... but it's possible.

All of the other Patriot WR's have better mobility than these ^ guys, Agholor and Tre Nixon are also fast. They're not assembling a track team. The biggest weakness on the 2020 Patriots was passing... solve the QB problem and the weapons will magically find their missing talent.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Actually we have a fast in four directions guy already on the roster - in the 2020 combine this 3-cone would have been good for second overall, and the short shuttle would have been top among WRs.

View attachment 32800

I appreciate you sharing information. But these athletic cards mean... nothing. Can they actually play football and perform in the couple key football skills relevant for their specific position ???

.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Damiere Byrd is one of the fastest guys in the NFL, Cam can't throw it in the ocean... so a small WR is worthless.

As is a really big jumpball WR who needs the ball put where only he can get it. I really wish we had super fast and quick players like AJ Brown instead of N'Keal Harry...

N'Keal Harry
Height: 6027
Weight: 225
40 Yrd Dash: 4.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 27
Vertical Jump: 38.5
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.28
3-Cone Drill: 7.05

AJ Brown
Height: 6004
Weight: 226
40 Yrd Dash: 4.49
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 19
Vertical Jump: 36.5
Broad Jump: 10'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.25
3-Cone Drill: 7.00

Mike Evans
Height: 6046
Weight: 231
40 Yrd Dash: 4.53
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 12
Vertical Jump: 37.0
Broad Jump: 00'00"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.26
3-Cone Drill: 7.08

Mike Williams
Height: 6036
Weight: 218
40 Yrd Dash: 4.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 15
Vertical Jump: 32.5
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle:
3-Cone Drill:

Before anyone mentions that I need to look at AJ Brown's production, tell me what Brown did with Marcus Mariota at QB... nothing is the answer. As soon as Tannehill became the starter AJ Brown transformed into a stud. WR's don't pass to themselves, this isn't to say Harry will turn into Brown with a great passer like we hope Mac Jones will become... but it's possible.

All of the other Patriot WR's have better mobility than these ^ guys, Agholor and Tre Nixon are also fast. They're not assembling a track team. The biggest weakness on the 2020 Patriots was passing... solve the QB problem and the weapons will magically find their missing talent.

There's no correlation between these 40 or cone times, with who is actually good at football .... there is an over emphasis on the wrong data. It's akin to going after QBs who can throw a 70 yard pass (who cares).

.

 

[patfanken]

In creating separation quickness and technique far outstrip speed as a factor. For example Edelman ran a very pedestrian 4.52 at his pro day. And we all should know by now that proday times are usually better than combine times because the combine times are done electronically and pro day times are usually hand timed. BUT Edelman knocked his 3 cone (6.6) out of the park. Edelman had a career because he was QUIICK rather than fast. He had a career because he was tough not because he was fast. He had a career because he worked on his craft and had great technique in his routes, not because he was fast.

The other element that is rarely spoken about, but is so important is acceleration. the reality isn't about how fast you are but how quickly you can reach your maximum speed. this might be dated, but to me the best example of the importance of acceleration was Barry Sanders. Sanders was a 4.6 40 guy and some say that was being generous. But what made Sanders the best RB of his day was the fact that he could get from 0 to his top speed in a nanosecond. His explosiveness was legendary. Jerry RIce is another great example of a 4.6 who excelled.

So when you go to Gillette for TC this summer, look at the WR drills and see who shows both quickness and acceleration. Because that is what creates separation, not speed.

 

[slash83]

Except the year we had Moss and Stallworth our WRs core has never been full of speed demons.

 

[zimmy]

The important thing is to find guys who can separate - speed is secondary to that. But it's probably worth mentioning that Agholor ran a 4.44 at the combine, so he is plenty fast enough, and Jonnu Smith is considered one of the fastest TEs in the league and the best after the catch. Agholor's highlight package last year showed a guy who could consistently beat corners deep.

Harry's problem isn't his speed - it's very similar to other successful receivers like Thomas, Evans etc - it's that he's too leaden footed in and out of his breaks and lacks explosiveness. Meyers is slower than Harry (4.63) but can get open through his route running. Keenan Allen ran a 4.6 for example too and operates in a similar way.

I actually have some hopes for Harry this year as a WR3/4 type. He'll never be the WR1 we hoped for but I still think he can contribute on an NFL team if we play to his strengths more. I would have loved to have got a Jaylen Waddle type but not at the expense of our QB of the future. I'm pretty confident we'll add a young receiver to pair with Jones in next years draft.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

But what made Sanders the best RB of his day was the fact that he could get from 0 to his top speed in a nanosecond.

The 10 yard split is best demonstration of this. Interestingly, this 10 yard split seems to highlight good offensive tackles prospects too.

A link I posted elsewhere suggests vertical jump as a good measure for WRs:

Notably strong vertical jump performances from wide receiver prospects: Davante Adams (39.5" in 2014), Allen Robinson (39" the same year), Odell Beckham Jr. (38.5" the same year), Julio Jones (38.5" in 2011) and Mike Wallace (40" in 2009).

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The 10 yard split is best demonstration of this. Interestingly, this 10 yard split seems to highlight good offensive tackles prospects too.

A link I posted elsewhere suggests vertical jump as a good measure for WRs:

Notably strong vertical jump performances from wide receiver prospects: Davante Adams (39.5" in 2014), Allen Robinson (39" the same year), Odell Beckham Jr. (38.5" the same year), Julio Jones (38.5" in 2011) and Mike Wallace (40" in 2009).

This logic does not work. One can also come up with a list of players with a bad vertical jump or 40 who are good players....

I suspect the coefficient of correlation between any combine metric to actual football performance is very low to non existent.

.

 

[Wozzy]

There's no correlation between these 40 or cone times, with who is actually good at football .... there is an over emphasis on the wrong data. It's akin to going after QBs who can throw a 70 yard pass (who cares).

There's a correlation between measurables and who is good/great at football, but having good/great measurables does not ensure one is good at football. I would argue that bad measurables almost always guarantees a player won't be able to play at an NFL level. There are a few outliers, but when you delve deep into their backstories you find there were extenuating circumstances as to why they didn't perform at their peak... injuries etc.

Profootballreference and nflcombineresults used to post combine results on a spreadsheet, one could toggle for the best/worst scores among all the major measurables in descending or ascending order. When one did this the top (best scores) were a who's who of All Pro's/Pro Bowlers and top players... when you toggled or scrolled down the bottom you found the busts, the nobodies and failures.

The reason the draft is a crapshoot is the human condition. Chad Jackson had amazing measurables, he had a flawless combine performance, he had good production in college... when he became a pro he let it all go to his head and became a screwup, lazy, unfocused and eventually injured.

You can't measure or quantify "desire" or "football smarts." Some players no matter how talented are just satisfied getting that one pro contract. After four years of highschool and college some of their bodies are being held together by duct tape and a desire for one contract or to say they “made it.” But at the end of the day if a player has the intangibles their ability to run a 4.2 forty, jump 40 inches in the air, to change direction with amazing cone/shuttle times is what makes them amazing players rather than average players... the god given stuff.