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Pats have Slowest Skill Position Players - Why it May not Matter

2021 Patriots Season:
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Sun
Sep 12th

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DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
What does draft picks have to do with athleticism? The Patriots discovered great value finding Jones and Jackson, no doubt largely due to their very good and undervalued athleticism that other teams overlooked. It’s almost as if you’re making my point for me.

And yes, I’m digging a massive hole suggesting pro athletes benefit from being bigger, faster, quicker and stronger... I’m way out on a limb.

Why are you changing the subject? We're talking about the Draft and how worthless combine measurables are to drafting players who have NFL success later. All 3 dbacks you mentioned, the Patriots had to get via trade or undrafted free agents. Because we have a total graveyard of high draft picks at CB and WR who are terrible, and it's because of really dumb reliance on combine metrics to justify the pick by idiots in the front office who don't understand statistics. (problem fixed now but before). We had to find CBs (Gilmore, Revis, JC, Jones, Butler) and WRs (Welker, Edelman, Meyers) elsewhere because we sucked at drafting CBs and WRs for 17 years since Deion Branch and Asante Samuel. Once these udfa playera are put in front of Belichick he's able to look at 50 guys and find the 1 who can play and make the roster.

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Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Why are you changing the subject? We're talking about the Draft and how worthless combine measurables are to drafting players who have NFL success later. All 3 dbacks you mentioned, the Patriots had to get via trade or undrafted free agents. Because we have a total graveyard of high draft picks at CB and WR who are terrible, and it's because of really dumb reliance on combine metrics to justify the pick by people idiots in the front office don't understand statistics. (problem fixed now but before). We had to find CBs (Gilmore, Revis, JC, Jones, Butler) and WRs (Welker, Edelman, Meyers) elsewhere because we sucked at drafting CBs and WRs for 17 years since Deion Branch and Asante Samuel. Once these udfa playera are put in front of Belichick he's able to look at 50 guys and find the 1 who can play and make the roster.
The draft is just one way to build a roster and why do measurables only apply to the draft, they don't, they apply to all rookie acquisitions. They don't draft a guy in the third round and say "problem solved." If BB has a position to fill he drafts someone, signs a value vet free agent and often brings in an UDFA or two to compete for that one job... the best player plays.

The average career in the NFL lasts three years, the draft is a total crapshoot. Meanwhile in the old days the draft lasted as long as 15 rounds, Troy Brown was taken in the 8th round... it doesn't even exist anymore. The goal is to build the best team possible and despite their ineptitude (according to you) they've had the best defensive backfield in the NFL for years.

It's stunning how something can be wildly successful and also be horrible.

Also how a pro athlete being fast, agile, strong or explosive is irrelevant. I already said athleticism does not equate to a good player, it doesn't change the fact the best players in the league are also the best and smartest athletes. Tyreek Hill is dangerous because he is a freakish athlete in a league of good athletes, and he has the football smarts to apply it on the field... he isn't the same player without the 4.2 forty speed. Everything else you hope you can teach a player, you'll never teach a player raw athleticism. Saying athleticism is a non-factor is ridiculous... it's literally in the name... pro athlete.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I already said athleticism does not equate to a good player, . Everything else you hope you can teach a player, you'll never teach a player raw athleticism. Saying athleticism is a non-factor is ridiculous... it's literally in the name... pro athlete.

Nope.

The only thing right you've said in a thousand words of diahhrea was athleticism doesn't equate to being a good player. So why do you keep digging a hole and say the combine is important. It's not.

Also, nope, you can't teach everything else to a player who comes in super athletic. Chad Jackson and NKeal Harry are total busts. The thing you can't teach players are core skills around football: pocket presence, route moves to get open, etc. These are only found on football tape not some lazy combine stat.

Athleticism is only useful as one factor to help explain something, like: "can a wide receiver get open?" And sometimes the answer is yes because he's quick. But then you don't be a dumbass and say "this guy has a great 3cone" as the core reason to filter guys. Again it's moronic low-IQ John Carroll thinking when you don't understand how to use statistics or information.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Nope.

The only thing right you've said in a thousand words of diahhrea was athleticism doesn't equate to being a good player. So why do you keep digging a hole and say the combine is important. It's not.

Also, nope, you can't teach everything else to a player who comes in super athletic. Chad Jackson and NKeal Harry are total busts. The thing you can't teach players are core skills around football: pocket presence, route moves to get open, etc. These are only found on football tape not some lazy combine stat.

Athleticism is only useful as one factor to help explain something, like: "can a wide receiver get open?" And sometimes the answer is yes because he's quick. But then you don't be a dumbass and say "this guy has a great 3cone" as the core reason to filter guys. Again it's moronic low-IQ John Carroll thinking when you don't understand how to use statistics or information.
Instead of answering with something new, I'm going to copy/paste the exact thing you responded to above, broken down into small sound bytes in the hopes your reading comprehension improves.

"I already said athleticism does not equate to a good player." So yep, not nope... said this very thing in my initial post.

"Everything else you hope you can teach a player, you'll never teach a player raw athleticism." The hope is an important distinction here.

"Saying athleticism is a non-factor is ridiculous... it's literally in the name... pro athlete." The cone/shuttle is a direct measurement of quickness, the forty is a measurement of inline speed, the vertical leap is a measurement of explosion, the bench press is a measurement of upper body strength... wtf are we doing at this point?

Measurables... it's literally in the word... a lot like "pro athlete" describes exactly what we're looking for. It's sheer coincidence that the absolute best players, the All Pros are all incredible athletes as well as smart... it's serendipity.

Athleticism matters, otherwise we'll surely see some guys out there with beer guts who run 4.9 forties playing WR... any day now... right.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
"Saying athleticism is a non-factor is ridiculous...

Why do you keep making things up. More odd interpretation coming from you. Nobody said a fat 5.3 guy can play WR. But pointing to a guy's 3cone or 40-time or jump height to assume he can play WR or get open, is wrong. The vast majority of draftees who are super fast or quick or can jump cannot play WR at a high level in the NFL. So using a combine measurable as a core reason to draft a guy is brain dead backwards logic.

Again, they have looked at this using science and statistics which I know go over your head, but to boil it down for children like you, for positions that require the least thinking (RB, DT, DE) there is minor correlation with a couple measurables (10-yard, long/broad jump). Every other position requires multiple position-specific skills to succeed that there is zero association with a combine measurable and NFL success in the other positions.
 

NYCPATS4LIFE

In the Starting Line-Up
Bill ignored the wr position once again in the draft. Supposedly this draft was loaded at wideout. He picked up a wr in the 7th round. Had a chance to draft a guy like tylan wallace earlier. He decided to go after two tight ends and not two wrs in free agency. This team still lacks speed. I expect more teams to play us in man coverage until they can beat man coverage.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Bill ignored the wr position once again in the draft. Supposedly this draft was loaded at wideout. He picked up a wr in the 7th round. Had a chance to draft a guy like tylan wallace earlier. He decided to go after two tight ends and not two wrs in free agency. This team still lacks speed. I expect more teams to play us in man coverage until they can beat man coverage.
Not for nothing dude but the Pats drafted a kid in the 7th that ran a 4.4 and Tylan Wallace ran a 4.5... not that speed is important according to some.
 

NYCPATS4LIFE

In the Starting Line-Up
Why do you keep making things up. More odd interpretation coming from you. Nobody said a fat 5.3 guy can play WR. But pointing to a guy's 3cone or 40-time or jump height to assume he can play WR or get open, is wrong. The vast majority of draftees who are super fast or quick or can jump cannot play WR at a high level in the NFL. So using a combine measurable as a core reason to draft a guy is brain dead backwards logic.

Again, they have looked at this using science and statistics which I know go over your head, but to boil it down for children like you, for positions that require the least thinking (RB, DT, DE) there is minor correlation with a couple measurables (10-yard, long/broad jump). Every other position requires multiple position-specific skills to succeed that there is zero association with a combine measurable and NFL success in the other positions.

Harry ran a 4.53 at the combine but he looks so slow off the line. He looks like he’s lumbering down the field. That was one of his knocks going into the draft. Very slow off his breaks.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Why do you keep making things up. More odd interpretation coming from you. Nobody said a fat 5.3 guy can play WR. But pointing to a guy's 3cone or 40-time or jump height to assume he can play WR or get open, is wrong. The vast majority of draftees who are super fast or quick or can jump cannot play WR at a high level in the NFL. So using a combine measurable as a core reason to draft a guy is brain dead backwards logic.

Again, they have looked at this using science and statistics which I know go over your head, but to boil it down for children like you, for positions that require the least thinking (RB, DT, DE) there is minor correlation with a couple measurables (10-yard, long/broad jump). Every other position requires multiple position-specific skills to succeed that there is zero association with a combine measurable and NFL success in the other positions.
Belichick specifically said Deion Branch's quickness was evident in his agility drills, this is true of any player smart enough to play the game.

Once you know a player is smart enough, their athleticism is what's left. There's no need to be insulting, if you can't explain why being fast isn't a good thing without hurling insults maybe you'd better accept my invite to agree to disagree. BB rattled off Deion Branch's shuttle time fourteen years after watching him workout... he called it quickness. But he's wrong according to you... I'll have to defer to your wisdom and accept BB is a dunce for thinking this way.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Ever heard of Taylor price? Wallace is also very quick off the line. Robert Woods also ran a 4.50
You said "the team lacks speed" then bemoaned the fact they didn't take a WR slower than the one they took in the 7th.

Tylan Wallace getting drafted ahead of Eli Nixon means nothing. Only what they do from here on out. Nixon is a good WR prospect.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Not for nothing dude but the Pats drafted a kid in the 7th that ran a 4.4 and Tylan Wallace ran a 4.5... not that speed is important according to some.

Again pure idiocy but it's like talking to a (dumb) brick wall that just doesn't get it. Sure there are a hundred rookie prospect WRs who run 4.5 or faster, but to cite the 4.5 as the reason to draft? More backwards logic.... It will be fun seeing your head be super confused when Bourne and Meyers (both 4.6, 4.68 guys) keep playing ahead of Harry.

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NYCPATS4LIFE

In the Starting Line-Up
Again pure idiocy but it's like talking to a (dumb) brick wall that just doesn't get it. Sure there are a hundred rookie prospect WRs who run 4.5 or faster, but to cite the 4.5 as the reason to draft? More backwards logic.... It will be fun seeing your head be super confused when Bourne and Meyers (both 4.6, 4.68 guys) keep playing ahead of Harry.

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Harry might be one of the worse receivers ever taken in the first round.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Again pure idiocy but it's like talking to a (dumb) brick wall that just doesn't get it. Sure there are a hundred rookie prospect WRs who run 4.5 or faster, but to cite the 4.5 as the reason to draft? More backwards logic.... It will be fun seeing your head be super confused when Bourne and Meyers (both 4.6, 4.68 guys) keep playing ahead of Harry.
Yeah, tossing insults that ought to do it. Citing 4.5 as the reason to draft... who did that? I provided his entire workout. Harry was starting all last season before Cam threw him a hospital ball, he also caught the only TD's among all the WR's besides Gunner. Maybe he'll never be good enough to justify his draft position, maybe he'll be an outright bust... but it's more likely to be because of concussions or because he isn't smart or technically savvy enough rather than an inability to run 4.5.

Fansites... the only place on the planet being a good athlete is unimportant.
 
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Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Wallace is better than nixon. Better prospect.
We'll see, what's unfortunate for him is he's going to a team with one of the most inaccurate passers in the league, who passes less than just about anyone and Wallace is a smaller target. I'd rather have Tre Nixon in the 7th than Wallace in the 4th, he isn't that much better a prospect... if at all.
 

NYCPATS4LIFE

In the Starting Line-Up
We'll see, what's unfortunate for him is he's going to a team with one of the most inaccurate passers in the league, who passes less than just about anyone and Wallace is a smaller target. I'd rather have Tre Nixon in the 7th than Wallace in the 4th, he isn't that much better a prospect... if at all.

Again we shall see. Wallace played in a better conference.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Yeah, tossing insults that ought to do it. Citing 4.5 as the reason to draft... who did that? I provided his entire workout. Harry was starting all last season before Cam threw him a hospital ball, he also caught the only TD's among all the WR's besides Gunner. Maybe he'll never be good enough to justify his draft position, maybe he'll be an outright bust... but it's more likely to be because of concussions or because he isn't smart or technically savvy enough rather than an inability to run 4.5.

Fansites... the only place on the planet being a good athlete is unimportant.

Look I appreciate your passion. Makes for a lively place. Being a good athlete seems to matter most for RB and DLine. The other spots , it's more like bare minimum cutoffs (like maybe 4.7 or 4.8 for WRs). And those guys are still good athletes because being a good athlete isn't defined by a tenth of a second on a 40 yard run that rarely happens in football. Beyond that it's a total crapshoot. Equal distribution of good players who run a 4.4 through 4.6. being good at an artificial drill does not mean a player can play football at their position. I think the smartest teams put players through their own personal workouts and ideally against some dummy competitiom (like against their bottom depth or PS players).

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