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Pats give Branch permission to seek Trade

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Miguel said:
I can't believe that Chayut actually has a chance of coming out of this smelling like a rose.

No matter how it comes down, in order to for Deion to get onto the road out of Foxboro, he will have to pass through the BB/SP on ramp. I think they will also notice a very expense toll booth there as well.

I'll place my money on the side of the Patriots, no matter how it ends up, faring quite well after all is said and done.

The only way Chayut will makes out is if the Patriots are totally satisfied - good luck Jason, go out and find us a deal we cannot refuse.
 
Chayut has already
1.) shown that it does actually benefit a Patriot player to holdout.
2.) gotten his client the opportunity to learn his value on the free market without being tagged. That kind of information will be invaluable.

And he still has the chance of getting his client a deal better than the Patriots' offer.
 
Miguel said:
Chayut has already
1.) shown that it does actually benefit a Patriot player to holdout.
2.) gotten his client the opportunity to learn his value on the free market without being tagged. That kind of information will be invaluable.

And he still has the chance of getting his client a deal better than the Patriots' offer.

Don't forget:

3) Cost his client hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.

I agree that Chayut has a chance to come out of this smelling like a rose, if he gets Branch the big contract or gets him traded with the big contract.

However, he also can come out of this smelling awful if he can't get the big deal, or he can get it but the Pats refuse to trade him.

This move puts all the onus on the agent. Even if he comes up with the deal, the Patriots don't have to agree to trade him and haven't given up the right to franchise him. They can still sit on him if they wish.

The only difference is where they were at a stalemate before, there are now negotiations taking place (even if they are with other teams).
 
Miguel said:
Chayut has already
1.) shown that it does actually benefit a Patriot player to holdout.
2.) gotten his client the opportunity to learn his value on the free market without being tagged. That kind of information will be invaluable.

And he still has the chance of getting his client a deal better than the Patriots' offer.

This market ain't as 'free" as it would've been three months ago, as some other posters pointed out.

Plus the only way Branch CONSUMMATES a better deal is if it works for the Patriots. Branch has not benefited yet. Why don't you wait to see the deal he gets to actually sign before you declare him a beneficiary?

All the pressure is on Chayut.

All the power is with the Patriots.

I can't agree with your statement yet.
 
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shmessy said:
This market ain't as 'free" as it would've been three months ago, as some other posters pointed out.

All Branch needs is one team.

Plus the only way Branch CONSUMMATES a better deal is if it works for the Patriots.

A better deal still makes Chayut look good, irregardless if it also works for the Patriots.
Branch has not benefited yet. Why don't you wait to see the deal he gets to actually sign before you declare him a beneficiary?

No IMO, he has already benefited.
 
Re: I don't understand the joy felt over the stance the Pats are taking on Branch....

mikey said:
I also don't understand all the "joy" over the action of the team.

That's because by your posts you have demonstrated time and again you haven't the faintest clue as to what the Patriots formula for success entails.
 
Re: I don't understand the joy felt over the stance the Pats are taking on Branch....

PatsWickedPissah said:
That's because by your posts you have demonstrated time and again you haven't the faintest clue as to what the Patriots formula for success entails.
I wish you were more to the point when your talking to Mikey, you can't expect him to understand if your going to use "entails", "faintest", and especially, "clue."
 
Miguel said:
M: All Branch needs is one team.
_____________________________

S: One team to pay him as a top-5 WR while simultaneously pleasing the Patriots with what they give up? Yeah, that's not expecting too much.



M: A better deal still makes Chayut look good, irregardless if it also works for the Patriots.
_____________________

S: Key part of that sentence is "a better deal" - BTW, NOTHING happens if it doesn't "work for the Patriots". "Irregardless if it works for the Patriots"?????? Am I missing something here?


M: No IMO, he has already benefited.
_________________

S: Okee dokee. Who are you and what have you done with Miguel?

Ten characters
 
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Miguel said:
A better deal still makes Chayut look good, irregardless if it also works for the Patriots.

This, to me, is a key issue. There are arguably two goals here on the Patriots' side:

- Settle the Branch mess without giving up value

- Avoid setting precedents that will encourage this tactic in the future

Branch & Chayut make holding out look good if they end up with a better deal than the Patriots were offering. Suppose the deal also happens to leave the team with Anquan Boldin and 5 draft picks. Ok, well and good for the Patriots, who cares. It's not a zero sum game. The goal isn't to hurt the other guy, it's to help yourself. If Branch comes out of this with an outsized deal that replaces his 2006 salary, holding out worked. Nasty precedent, that.
 
patchick said:
This, to me, is a key issue. There are arguably two goals here on the Patriots' side:

- Settle the Branch mess without giving up value

- Avoid setting precedents that will encourage this tactic in the future

Branch & Chayut make holding out look good if they end up with a better deal than the Patriots were offering. Suppose the deal also happens to leave the team with Anquan Boldin and 5 draft picks. Ok, well and good for the Patriots, who cares. It's not a zero sum game. The goal isn't to hurt the other guy, it's to help yourself. If Branch comes out of this with an outsized deal that replaces his 2006 salary, holding out worked. Nasty precedent, that.
Excellent point, that. Except that if the player makes out AND the team makes out then it only sets a precedent that you can BUY your way off the team if you can find another team to pay your toll.
 
patchick said:
This, to me, is a key issue. There are arguably two goals here on the Patriots' side:

- Settle the Branch mess without giving up value

- Avoid setting precedents that will encourage this tactic in the future

Branch & Chayut make holding out look good if they end up with a better deal than the Patriots were offering. Suppose the deal also happens to leave the team with Anquan Boldin and 5 draft picks. Ok, well and good for the Patriots, who cares. It's not a zero sum game. The goal isn't to hurt the other guy, it's to help yourself. If Branch comes out of this with an outsized deal that replaces his 2006 salary, holding out worked. Nasty precedent, that.

I thought there is already a precedent with Richard Seymour.

As for Branch's value, he has already helped us win 2 Super Bowls. How do you put a value on that?

.
 
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shmessy said:
Plus the only way Branch CONSUMMATES a better deal is if it works for the Patriots. Branch has not benefited yet. Why don't you wait to see the deal he gets to actually sign before you declare him a beneficiary?
All he said was:

Miguel said:
I can't believe that Chayut actually has a chance of coming out of this smelling like a rose.
 
Awesome move...time for Deon to shut up or put up. I think he'll be in for a surprise.
 
Miguel said:
Chayut has already
1.) shown that it does actually benefit a Patriot player to holdout.
2.) gotten his client the opportunity to learn his value on the free market without being tagged. That kind of information will be invaluable.

And he still has the chance of getting his client a deal better than the Patriots' offer.

It is way too early to state that there will be any benefit to this. While Chayut may be giddy at the prospect, his joy could be very short lived. And his client is probably puking in the john tonight. This is not what the kid in the Burton interview had in mind when he said just a few nights ago he thought both sides would do the right thing.

The invaluable information may turn out to be very bad news.

The chance he has of getting his client a better deal is pretty slim. Let's look at the early front runners:

Eagles - are tighter than the Pat's and horde draft picks like gold. Donovan needed TO's talent minus the attitude. Deion is no TO.

Denver - Just signed Walker to a 5 year $40M+ deal with $15M in option bonuses in 2007 and 2008. Traded a 2 for him but as part of the deal they are requiring him to play for his 5th year Packers rookie deal salary of $2.1M in 2006. Shanny doesn't need a #1, he needs a #2 behind his 1 and 1A. Think he'll open the can of worms a big deal for Branch with 2006 money in it would create with Walker? After just extricating himself from Lelie? Will a small but savvy read and react WR have an impact with Jake the Snake or a rookie behind center?

Seahawks - well they are perpetually in the market for WR's who can actually catch the ball. But again, Branch's skill set takes time and the right offensive system to produce value. With no camp or pre season, how much of an impact can the twig have for any of these teams? Givens may not be a #1 but his skillset was more portable.
 
shmessy said:
M: A better deal still makes Chayut look good, irregardless if it also works for the Patriots.
_____________________

S: Key part of that sentence is "a better deal" - BTW, NOTHING happens if it doesn't "work for the Patriots". "Irregardless if it works for the Patriots"?????? Am I missing something here?
Not wanting to speak for Miguel, but I see what he is saying.

If Chayut gets a team to agree to pay Branch 7 years, $50 mil, with $15 mil up front, Chayut looks good. If the Patriots refuse to make the trade, then THEY are the ones who are preventing the deal from going through. Branch and Chayut now have the high moral ground. All the folks who are saying that Chayut is hurting Branch's future will now point to the Patriots as the ones who are hurting Branch's future. The trade doesn't actually have to go through for Chayut to look good. He did his part.

The Patriots are gambling that Chayut will NOT be able to broker a deal better than what the Patriots have already offered. I agree that this is the most likely course, but there is a chance that some team will pony up big bucks. Look what Patten and Givens got.
 
14thDragon said:
This is the most brilliant move I have ever seen. This better then brilliant, it is inspired.

How do you teach a player what his real value is, let him try the waters. Since it is dependent upon finding a trade that would work with a the Patriots, they can always decline and keep him on the roster.

He wants to be paid market value, see what the market is willing to give him.

I also like the September first clause. So he does not really have time to brow beat anyone. It is a week on the auction block and see who bids.

Agreed. They are good

Most teams implode after one SB because of contracts.

Pats are still in control, (Seymour, Brady), while finding creative ways to not get bulldozed. It sucks, but they can score enough to win.
 
I'll just go ahead and add the bricks because I've never seen a debate on this board that didn't instantly become personal. :bricks:



let me first say that I have a ton of respect for BB as a personnel decision maker. IMO, rings are more on the players than the coaches...but coaches who change the game become HoFers....Bill Cowher is not a HoFer...how has he changed the game?

The overarching hallmark of Bill's career is that he's consistently made incredibly courageous and smart personnel decisions in an era where those decisions had to be made. He's revolutionized the way FOs operate. He's made decisions that were in the best interest of the team, despite being HIGHLY unpopular -- even suicidal...this aspect is way more impressive to me than his occasionally overrated Xs/Os genius, teaching genius, or scouting/draft genius -- not that he's a slouch in those areas either...but did he make Lawrence Taylor and Tom Brady look great, or did they make him look great?

having established my respect for Bill the PERSONNEL MANAGER, I will now express my frustration for both sides that this deal is not getting done.

the fact is Deion's agent is fielding calls right now...this won't take a week...and, like the FO, they won't deal with this behind closed doors...we'll hear about the proposal in a press release the same time Bill will.

is anyone considering the fact the cap is about to SKYROCKET...and maybe we're low-balling Deion hoping he'll submit to the value paradigm of the current cap level?, or else look "stubborn" to ignorant media/fans.

is anyone considering how humiliating this tactic is? Deion's not returning with his tail between his legs to help this team...this is no olive branch, it's a kick in the balls. He's not getting great money in late August, the Pats know this, but he has pride and I doubt Tom's phone calls are going to do the trick at this point.

is anyone considering chemistry?...it matters. It's worth value. We should not overpay, but we should adjust our value paradigm in-line with the current cost of securing the FUTURE services of a reliable receiver like Deion, who has been a tremendous asset on and off the field for us.

is anyone considering that if Branch releases a statement tomorrow saying he wishes to go to team X (philly?, NYJ?, etc...) that we have two lousy options:

1. veto trade, get disgruntled unproductive receiver for '06.
2. allow him to leave, and get very little in return.

where is the leverage?...seems to be with Deion to me.

where is the brilliant plan here? Is the brilliant plan to go into the season without Deion because he's a cancer and we need to get rid of him? Anyone who believes that is a total reactionary who deserves their own talk radio show.

it's not a question of whether we NEED Deion, it's a question of how much worse off we are. Give him an extra million -- still in line with Givens money -- and go win the ******* super bowl.

Deion and Tom have chemistry -- in this passing system "rapport" is more valuable than sheer athleticism, because we don't rely on HoF receivers to make huge plays, but rather the unspoken communication that comes from experience.

I'm not saying he's an all-pro, but you can't throw away chemistry and expect to rebuild it overnight. Jackson is potentially a much more dangerous receiver than Deion, but we're still better off with both of them.

We can overcome the loss of Givens, but both Givens and Branch at once? Not sayin' the offense will suck by any means, but is it as good without Deion?

A week ago I was certain a deal would be done...now I'm convinced he'll leave.

This team may indeed still be good enough to go all the way (every team has holes -- this is something the media has trouble understanding), but we're definitely worse off than we would've been with him. And given the fact that our QB stuck his neck out there, you just don't want to send the message to the rest of your players that you can't get a deal done with a SB-MVP, with a sterling clubhouse record, who's still playing on his el cheapo rookie contract.

You people may hate Deion...he may be dead to you...but he's not dead to this team...he's one of the most beloved players in the clubhouse. And unlike Lawyer, his skills aren't diminishing.

There will be ripples if he leaves...I'm not saying it will split the team, but we will have to deal with it...and ripples like this can -- and have -- sapped the momentum and energy out of many a season.

again, I'm not saying the FO is wrong or right...and perhaps we should've stayed hardline with him...Borges will call it "arrogance"...not me...but I don't see any brilliance here.

I guarantee Tom is flying off the walls...he's too ambitious to let it destroy HIS future...but that doesn't mean he's a happy camper.

I'm not changing my avatar over this, but it's definitely a kick in the gut.
 
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brady2brown said:
If the Patriots refuse to make the trade, then THEY are the ones who are preventing the deal from going through. Branch and Chayut now have the high moral ground. All the folks who are saying that Chayut is hurting Branch's future will now point to the Patriots as the ones who are hurting Branch's future. The trade doesn't actually have to go through for Chayut to look good. He did his part.

Not true. The Patriots wouldn't be "preventing the deal". They would be refusing to accept less compensation to give up their contractual rights to the player.

They don't have to agree to a trade unless they like the terms. They have a valid contract with Deion, even if he does not wish to honor it. They don't have to do anything but pay Deion for this year if he plays, and then Franchise him after that if they wish to hold onto those rights.

Those are their collectively bargained rights.
 
Miguel said:
Chayut has already
1.) shown that it does actually benefit a Patriot player to holdout.
2.) gotten his client the opportunity to learn his value on the free market without being tagged. That kind of information will be invaluable.

And he still has the chance of getting his client a deal better than the Patriots' offer.
1) What has he shown ? The Pats haven't given in to a bigger offer. Branch has a sizable liability for fines which might give the Pats some actual leverage if Branch is interested in a couple hundred thousand dollars. The Pats haven't given in at all to the demand that they give up the option to franchise. The Pats have not given in to adding a 'sweetener' to his current year's deal. He hasn't avoided any injury risk to speak of because the Pats showed last year that they would protect him during training camp and preseason games anyway. If he hasn't been following a full preseason conditioning program, he may have actually increased his chance of injury (including a possible career ending one). Not going thru training camp repetitions with Brady cannot have helped his readiness to perform well at the start of the season which might hurt his stats this year. By giving other receivers more 1st team training camp and preseason game reps he gives them a chance to develop more rapport and confidence with Brady which might result in Brady feeling comfortable in using other receivers at the expense of Branch's opportunities. In the same vein, the Patriots coaches may be more comfortable about reducing Branch's overall reps on the field which would decrease his stats - especially if they felt they were reducing the risk of losing him for a portion of the season to injury. If the Patriots show that they can run a highly productive offense without Branch, that may raise some serious questions in other teams' estimations as to whether Branch is, by himself, all that powerful a weapon. I rather doubt that there is any particular benefit to getting permission to seek a trade - the Pats are highly unlikely to accept any trade offer that would not have been at least as good as something they would have negotiated should they have been exploring a Branch trade. In fact, you could probably argue that if they had reached a point where they were considering a trade as their best option, Branch has done them a favor because his seeking a deal is probably more likely to get a good offer than if the Pats appeared to be in a weak position of giving up on him and trying to get a fire sale deal. You could argue that he has done them something of a favor by making an example of himself that appears at the moment to be showing that there is no benefit for any other players to try the same thing. I can't think of anything that would benefit Branch - but I may just have missed some obvious things.

2) I'm not so sure that offers under these conditions will indicate all that much about what offers might be made under free agency. We know any offer would have to include compensation for the Patriots which means the cost would be higher than for free agency, so the money portion of the offer to Branch might not reflect what a team would be willing to pay in free agency. Since a number of #1 receivers have already been acquired by various teams, it seems that the demand has to be considerably less at this point in time which should translate into lower offers anyway. If teams have any inclination to negotiate (which teams like Washington may not) it seems like Branch is in a weaker negotating position since at this point he just may seem to want to get out. I don't know if the lateness of joining a team after virtually all of preseason would decrease what teams might want to pay. If anything, I might wonder if any offers under these conditions might not tell the Patriots more about what the possibilities would be for what they might get for Branch if they franchise him next year.

This strikes me as a classic one-sided negotiation - when one side will not compromise, the other side is powerless to achieve any advantage or desired resolution. As long as the Patriots are willing to go into the season without Branch, Branch has no leverage whatsoever - he plays under the Patriots terms or he loses money. Or the Patriots will get a very lucrative compensation package for him.
 
brady2brown said:
Not wanting to speak for Miguel, but I see what he is saying.

If Chayut gets a team to agree to pay Branch 7 years, $50 mil, with $15 mil up front, Chayut looks good. If the Patriots refuse to make the trade, then THEY are the ones who are preventing the deal from going through. Branch and Chayut now have the high moral ground. All the folks who are saying that Chayut is hurting Branch's future will now point to the Patriots as the ones who are hurting Branch's future. The trade doesn't actually have to go through for Chayut to look good. He did his part.

The Patriots are gambling that Chayut will NOT be able to broker a deal better than what the Patriots have already offered. I agree that this is the most likely course, but there is a chance that some team will pony up big bucks. Look what Patten and Givens got.
If the Patriots don't accept the trade offer, Branch gets no more money this year or even a long term deal to protect against injury - wasn't that the whole point of what Branch/Chayut were after ? Somehow or another a 'moral' victory doesn't seem like it does the first thing for Branch. And I'm pretty sure the Patriots could care less about moral ground. But maybe I just don't understand.
 
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