Pats and Wilfork close to a deal for an extension?

[chasa]

Vince's cost is not $11 million. Vince's cost is a perfectly reasonable $7.5 million. And your choosing to ignore an entire career because of 2+ games isn't really a good thing in a case like this.

7.5 + the prorated bonus, on top of the Injury On top of the fact that we made it to the AFCCG after losing him And a funk ton of other players, oh and hes on the wrong side of 33.

Our defense right now is better then it was last year, even if Vince never takes a snap. If you can take that 7.5 million and find a way to work it into some depth at DE it would be more beneficial that the vince of today.

People need to stop looking at past production when eyeing the future. Unless vince had some injury nobody was talking about to start the season, he looked real slow for a healthy guy.

He's had a great career here, And I hope he stays, but at a cost that makes the TEAM stronger, not the other way around. If you want a huge check because you were great once, join the nba where guys with Achilles injuries can get 30 million a year to ride the pine.

 

[Rob0729]

Vince's cost is not $11 million. Vince's cost is a perfectly reasonable $7.5 million. And your choosing to ignore an entire career because of 2+ games isn't really a good thing in a case like this.

Several things:

- Teams look at the cap hit of a player not the base salary paid out. He may only be getting $7.5 million of new money, but his cap hit is $11 million.

- I disagree that $7.5 million for a 33 year old player coming of a major injury that has ended careers and has weight issues is perfectly reasonable. For Wilfork two years ago? Absolutely. For 2014 Wilfork? Not even close.

- What Wilfork has done during his career is irrelevant now. It is his value to the team today. And let's face it, it isn't $7.5 million worth. There is good chance that Wilfork will never be more than a subpar NT ever again and NTs are becoming less and less important to the league.

- The bottom line is the Pats cannot afford to carry Wilfork's $11 million cap hit. They need more cap room and he is the easiest and most effective way to free up cap space.

 

[Deus Irae]

7.5 + the prorated bonus, on top of the Injury On top of the fact that we made it to the AFCCG after losing him And a funk ton of other players, oh and hes on the wrong side of 33.

Our defense right now is better then it was last year, even if Vince never takes a snap. If you can take that 7.5 million and find a way to work it into some depth at DE it would be more beneficial that the vince of today.

People need to stop looking at past production when eyeing the future. Unless vince had some injury nobody was talking about to start the season, he looked real slow for a healthy guy.

He's had a great career here, And I hope he stays, but at a cost that makes the TEAM stronger, not the other way around. If you want a huge check because you were great once, join the nba where guys with Achilles injuries can get 30 million a year to ride the pine.

The bonus doesn't matter if you're talking about additional cost.
Vince is/was an All-Pro the year before he got hurt.

Your position makes no sense.

 

[ausbacker]

The bonus doesn't matter if you're talking about additional cost.
Vince is/was an All-Pro the year before he got hurt.

Your position makes no sense.

I find it offensive to this board that everyone who shares an opinion that differs from yours is labeled foolish or nonsensical. I don't have to agree with the comments of another to understand the rationale behind them.

I have made it known I would like Wilfork extended at a rate that rewards Wilfork's Patriots career but also keeps in mind the reality that he may not return to what he once was. It is reasonable to swing either way on Vince Wilfork.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Vince is/was an All-Pro the year before he got hurt.

I actually don't care what a player has done lately, I'm interested in what he will do soon.

 

[Gwedd]

I would very much like to see Vince Wilfork back in a Patriots uniform.

Having said that, his current contract is fairly (considering the needs of the team) untenable at this point. If he's all about the money, then he's welcome to go somewhere else. BUT, New England still owns his rights for another season, so his options are pretty limited.

He's perfectly within his rights to ask for his release. New England is perfectly within it's rights to keep him. I don't have an answer to this. I wish I did. My suggestion is to wait and see how his leg performs in training camp. That's IF he shows up at training camp. He could pull a Mankins, but that wouldn't be to his advantage. Not at his age, and not coming off that injury.

I hope it works out well to everyone's advantage, but I'm not holding my breath. The cards right now are in New England's favour. Vince is basically bluffing with a pair of deuces.

 

[Deus Irae]

I actually don't care what a player has done lately, I'm interested in what he will do soon.

Since you can't know what he'll do in the future, you can only look to the past and present for guidance. Since there's currently no football "present", as it's the offseason, that leaves only the past.


Thanks for playing, though!

 

[FalconHeavy]

I find it offensive to this board that everyone who shares an opinion that differs from yours is labeled foolish or nonsensical. I don't have to agree with the comments of another to understand the rationale behind them.

I have made it known I would like Wilfork extended at a rate that rewards Wilfork's Patriots career but also keeps in mind the reality that he may not return to what he once was. It is reasonable to swing either way on Vince Wilfork.

hey aus, don't bother wasting your time arguing with deus. ignore button is your friend

 

[mayoclinic]

Since you can't know what he'll do in the future, you can only look to the past and present for guidance. Since there's currently no football "present", as it's the offseason, that leaves only the past.

And when the past is irrelevant, you have nothing to go by. Hard to pay $7.5M with nothing to go by.

Thanks for your always insightful analysis!

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

DI is such a badass

 

[Brady6]

So you decide to post a pic of an overweight guy that looks nothing like wilfork ?

Click the link it was on twitter.

 

[Deus Irae]

And when the past is irrelevant, you have nothing to go by. Hard to pay $7.5M with nothing to go by.

Thanks for your always insightful analysis!

You and I have gone over this multiple times, Mayo, and we both acknowledge the problem with finding a value for Wilfork due to the injury. I'm not the one who was talking about only the future, and making no sense in the process:

I actually don't care what a player has done lately, I'm interested in what he will do soon.

Take it up with him. But saying the past is irrelevant? Come on, now.

 

[mayoclinic]

You and I have gone over this multiple times, Mayo, and we both acknowledge the problem with finding a value for Wilfork due to the injury. I'm not the one who was talking about only the future, and making no sense in the process:

Take it up with him. But saying the past is irrelevant? Come on, now.

But it is, at least in terms of making any assessment regarding Wilfork in 2014 (obviously not in terms of the emotional and leadership impact Wilfork has had on the team). We'd all gladly take Wilfork circa 2010-2012 at $7.5M and be grateful for it, but we just don't know at this juncture that the guy who is getting that salary is going to have much relationship to that player. As you say, there is a fundamental "problem with finding a value for Wilfork due to the injury", and that's the basic dilemma.

 

[Deus Irae]

hey aus, don't bother wasting your time arguing with deus. ignore button is your friend

This one will be odd. The person you quoted is someone I have on ignore. You imply that you have me on ignore, and I'm going to use your post to respond to the first person, who responds to me despite knowing that I have him on ignore. Here goes:

If you'd take the time to read my posts for content, instead of just looking to nip at my ankles, Ausbacker, you'd have seen this:

....I've talked about this before. They have multiple options, and they are all reasonable.

• Release - **** move, but reasonable
• Extend with new money - Risky, sentimental (and potentially stupid) move, but reasonable
• Status quo - a bit constricting in terms of FA moves, but certainly reasonable

The best solution, in terms of protecting both sides, is an extension that pushes money into next year and offers legitimate compensation for VW's talents, but doesn't kick in any (or at least much) new money unless VW shows the ability to play on the field. I just don't know how they'd go about crafting that contract in a way that passed the sniff test, and I don't care to research it. Miguel may be more interested in doing so at some point.

My response to Chasa was specific to his comments. It makes no sense to talk about an $11 million dollar cost and the pro-rated bonus, for example, when the number at question is $7.5 million, and he's talking about a "COST" that makes the team stronger. When it comes to making the team stronger, the available money is the $7.5m, not the $11m. The additional $3.5m "COST" doesn't matter in context.

If you're going to nip at my ankles while on ignore, at least get it right, since I usually don't see what you're posting and can't correct your screw ups in cases like that. And, if you find this offensive, please feel free to put me on ignore.

 

[patfanken]

And when the past is irrelevant, you have nothing to go by. Hard to pay $7.5M with nothing to go by.

Thanks for your always insightful analysis!

Don't bother, Mayo. DI is in full contrarian mode right now. It won't matter what you say.

Actually, Vince's intransigence in taking some sort of cut/restructure is starting to piss me off a little. I understand the vast contribution he's made to the Pats over the years, but he's been paid very well in return. Its been a very MUTUALLY beneficial relationship. Where is the anger coming from....if it exists as reported?

We still haven't heard word one about when he's likely to be ready to play football, nor have we heard what his demands are. Did he REALLY thing the Pats were going to keep him at an $11.6MM cap number this season?

Again, I think we should give him what he wants. Let him go, and use the almost $8MM in additional cap space to fill in some gaps in our depth, which have already been discussed and WILL be discussed ad nauseum for the rest of the off season

 

[MassPats38]

I've talked about this before. They have multiple options, and they are all reasonable.

• Release - **** move, but reasonable
• Extend with new money - Risky, sentimental (and potentially stupid) move, but reasonable
• Status quo - a bit constricting in terms of FA moves, but certainly reasonable

The best solution, in terms of protecting both sides, is an extension that pushes money into next year and offers legitimate compensation for VW's talents, but doesn't kick in any (or at least much) new money unless VW shows the ability to play on the field. I just don't know how they'd go about crafting that contract in a way that passed the sniff test, and I don't care to research it.

I'm not claiming to have read all thirty pages of the thread, so forgive the repetition.

Without the medical data, which is far and away the most important information in this equation, you cannot offer a reasonableness assessment. If you are privy to those facts, then please enlighten me. This scenario is caveat emptor to the nth degree, and you are saying the Pats should buy in more with an extension (guaranteed money or guaranteed salary, you choose), site unseen - that would be reasonable to you? Throw due diligence to the wind because he might be able to play at some point?

You don't know if Wilfork will play another down at this point. You could draft a Peyton Manning deal, guarantee a year's salary and then put an injury clause for the balance, but what would you base a guaranteed salary on - the pre-injury performance? Remember even Manning went through physical drills and proved he could play before the Broncos signed him to that deal. Wilfork? There is no evidence publicly offered that says he can even play at this point. The hope of recovery, despite years of loyal service, is bad business, especially with an injury like this when all the medical data suggests the player (1) will not return or (2) will never play as well again.

I would agree that if the Pats are displeased with the medical data to date, then a release would be appropriate. If Wilfork can find a taker under those circumstances, then so be it. Otherwise, he has a standing offer. Wilfork may have been offered an incentive laden contract with due regard to his health, and he may have rejected that proposal as insulting. If he was offered a snap-based incentive clause and he refused, then I would label him as unreasonable at that point provided the deal approximated the payments to a healthy Wilfork if he cleared all hurdles.

 

[Deus Irae]

But it is, at least in terms of making any assessment regarding Wilfork in 2014 (obviously not in terms of the emotional and leadership impact Wilfork has had on the team).

That is not correct. His previous level of play is not irrelevant. If he'd been a stiff in 2012, and followed that up with 2013, he'd already be unemployed. Instead, we have 4 baseline issues/reference points:

1. First team All Pro as recently as 2 seasons ago, and a top talent most of his career
2. Looked off last season prior to the injury
3. The injury, and general recovery percentages
4. His age/Weight/rehab dedication

All of those are relevant when trying to assess what makes sense for both sides. It's an issue of weighing them all together, looking at the numbers, and trying to find a (hopefully) mutually acceptable solution.

We'd all gladly take Wilfork circa 2010-2012 at $7.5M and be grateful for it, but we just don't know at this juncture that the guy who is getting that salary is going to have much relationship to that player. As you say, there is a fundamental "problem with finding a value for Wilfork due to the injury", and that's the basic dilemma.

Yes, there's a fundamental problem. I think most of us are in agreement with this. To make it worse, even if VW were to return and struggle this season, it wouldn't necessarily mean he was done. He might need the year to bounce back. It's conceivable that he could be a better player in 2015 than in 2014.

• Extend the player and watch him go bad, and it's a disaster.
• Extend the player and watch him bounce back, and you're brilliant.
• Cut the player and watch him go to a rival and flourish, and it's a disaster.
• Cut the player and watch him fail to recover, and you're brilliant.

This is the sort of decision that gets these guys (coaches/GMs) the big bucks or, in the case of less secure people, gets them fired..

 

[patfanken]

This one will be odd. The person you quoted is someone I have on ignore. You imply that you have me on ignore, and I'm going to use your post to respond to the first person, who responds to me despite knowing that I have him on ignore. Here goes:

If you'd take the time to read my posts for content, instead of just looking to nip at my ankles, Ausbacker, you'd have seen this:


My response to Chasa was specific to his comments. It makes no sense to talk about an $11 million dollar cost and the pro-rated bonus, for example, when the number at question is $7.5 million, and he's talking about a "COST" that makes the team stronger. When it comes to making the team stronger, the available money is the $7.5m, not the $11m. The additional $3.5m "COST" doesn't matter in context.

You couldn't be more wrong. $11.6 is EXACTLY the number for Vince Wilfolk this season. THAT's his monetary value this year. That is what his comparative cost is to the team.

That they are only paying him around $8MM in actual dollars this season is the number that's irrelevant in determining his value. That $8MM figure ONLY becomes relevant if/when Vince is released, because that's the approximate amount of space that will open up.

If you're going to nip at my ankles while on ignore, at least get it right, since I usually don't see what you're posting and can't correct your screw ups in cases like that. And, if you find this offensive, please feel free to put me on ignore.

WOW, could you possibly be more pompous with this remark. I guess we are all just little bugs to you, "nipping at your godlike ankles" Talk about being an egomaniac.

BTW: In case you ever do read this. Much like the "Nixon enemies list", being on your "ignore list" is considered an HONOR, for most of the board! Not to worry though, because eventually you'll have no one to debate but yourself.....which of course will be perfection in your eyes. Since it seems the only one worthy to debate you.....is you.

 

[Deus Irae]

....Without the medical data, which is far and away the most important information in this equation, you cannot offer a reasonableness assessment. If you are privy to those facts, then please enlighten me. This scenario is caveat emptor to the nth degree, and you are saying the Pats should buy in more with an extension (guaranteed money or guaranteed salary, you choose), site unseen - that would be reasonable to you? Throw due diligence to the wind because he might be able to play at some point?...

No, I'm noting that it would be reasonable to extend the deal in the hopes that he'd bounce back, because they almost certainly don't know one way or another right now, and they may feel that they want some room but don't want to give up on Vince. Vince isn't doing reverse dunks. Vince isn't in the hospital with his Achilles tendon needing reattachemnt. He's somewhere in the middle and, in all likelihood, a long way from being rehabbed enough for people to make a concrete assessment about his final physical state. There's a gamble here.

Given the current projections of their 2015 cap space, the money is there to take a reasonable risk on Wilfork, if they choose. I'm not sure where your use of "sight unseen" came from, though, since I think we can agree that they'd check him out as best they could before making such a decision, and he's reportedly been in the locker room recently enough to clean his things out after discussions broke down.

 

[Rob0729]

I think after 30 pages, I think I came to the conclusion that I think everyone can agree with - Deus has trouble playing nice with others.