DRAFT Patriots select WR Tyquan Thornton at 50.

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I hear Bill pollen talk about speed and he said that the difference between a 4.35 guy and a 4.45 guy wasn't that much, but a 4.2x guy and a 4.4 guy was a big deal

For sure. Everyone runs 4.4 nowadays so again it's the little things that really separate guys. That said I remember Josh Boyce was a burner but couldn't utilize his speed in-route. Hopefully TT hits the grind running, literally.

 

[sturmrider]

I've been following this thread and find everyone's opinion interesting. I happened to be on youtube and found this video posted back in January it shows both some of his faults and some of his positives. Should be an interesting receiver for us, I have high hopes.

 

[BTTA]

You're making too many generalizations about the WR position without taking into consideration that type of offense they were running. When they were running Multi-WR sets, the Pats always had 5 wide.

The short-yardage extra blocker load is going to either a TE or an OL.

The Pats WILL be carrying 5WR on the 53 man roster. They'll be Bourne, Agholor, Parker, Thornton, and Meyers. The only way it doesn't happen if Agholor is traded or the Pats rescind the RFA offer before Meyers signs it.

The only thing I agree with is that the analysis is useless until TC

OK. In this configuration, how do you distribute the 25 offensive players across the positions? (Including at least two for special teams guys, like Slater and Bolden).

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I think right now the rank ordering highly speculative given the addition of 2 WR's and the subtraction of 2 (Harry and Gunner). I think it will depend a lot on who Mac ends up being the most productive with, which depends on talent, position, and scheme. And inevitably, injuries. Parker is likely to miss time, and it might even affect Mac's ability to rely on him even when he is playing. And someone else will likely miss significant time.
We'll carry (maybe) 5, and stash others as possible. Let's see who's healthy by the end of camp. That might cure any embarassment of riches. We've lost 2, we added Thornton, 1/3 of D'Eric King, Parker, and guess what another TE, which has only the slightest bit to do with it but is funny to take note of

Mac's expected second year leap also matters wrt receivers, particularly if he has strengthened his arm and/or is focusing on improving his deep game. The coaching and game plan changes might also end up strongly affecting the weightings.
So, variables: Has he "gotten better" (strengthened his arm, done yoga, eaten avacados, whatever)... Does he have targets he did not have in 21?... Will he have time he did not have in 21? I think the answer to the 2nd and 3rd questions are yes. I think it's likely he makes year 2 progress in his own right too.

To me, Mac's comfort level to throw to a receiver will be the primary determinant, and we should see that emerge by the end of a full preseason for Mac as the starter.
Camp will show us... well, camp. He's also the presumptive starter, but... and I can't believe I'm saying this... if the diff between Zappe and him is night and day in Zappe's favor, he might be moving to montana soon. Oh never mind, I'm trying to say since it's conceivable he loses the job, it's really NOT necessarily a full preseason of Mac as the starter. But I mean, Mac's job to lose, far and away. But you know what BB says if asked before week 1 of camp... "competition is good at every position..."

Meyers ended up being the major beneficiary last season because of Mac's conservatism, but Bourne ended up winning that on a per attempt basis --which is why Bourne ended up as the #1 DVOA wide receiver in the league last year.
Bolding added because that is eye-popping... but it's more about how big the dropoff is to the next guy, not the absolute measure of the receiver. He's pretty good, but to view him as "best in league" in something is truly inspiring... but only until you realize it means "yeah we got nothing after those guys"
It's all about the decisions Mac ends up making, and how aggressive or conservative he is this year.

It'll be fun to watch all of this sort out. Yep - good post

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Yea I'm really not trying to put it all on Thornton but he's got the market share of upside in this draft for us.

Some maybe wondering why "upside" or "ceilings" matter?

The talent level throughout the league is consistent, razor thin margins. Both playing and coaching. So when you have guys that bring or have a little extra it counts big time. And needless to say matters.

We should know early on bc his skill set is different than the rest save Agholor.

Thornton is easy to get high on out of the gate. That time is eye-popping, no matter how much you say footballs not a track meet.

PLUS, at least in his college film, there are a LOT of shots of him going up and getting a ball in traffic despite the dreaded spectre of contact. He doesn't play like he's skinny.

All of that's great, and I cant convince myself to be wary... but eventually I'll take my reality-based lumps as needed

Also high on Strange, and the same applies. I've talked myself into "why not successful drafting?" probably based on the Groh Hypothesis. Just a homer right now, waiting for my "D'OH" moment.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Imagine WR1. Pickup football game. 5 guys are standing there, Bourne, Agholor, Parker, Thornton, and Meyers. You got first pick, Who are you picking?

I'm sorry those guys are laughing when I step up to pick anybody.

 

[DaBruinz]

OK. In this configuration, how do you distribute the 25 offensive players across the positions? (Including at least two for special teams guys, like Slater and Bolden).

Why are you assuming there will be only 25 offensive players? The Patriots have used anywhere from 23 to 27 on offense over the years. Just like they've carried anywhere from 9-11 Offensive line players on the 53. It varies.

To even attempt to do what YOU want would be nothing but a silly wild assed guess. Especially with James White's status being up in the air since recent reports weren't promising that he'd be ready for Training Camp.

Maybe you should go back and look at the Roster tracking threads from the last few years to see just how many RBs and WRs the Patriots have carried.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Why are you assuming there will be only 25 offensive players? The Patriots have used anywhere from 23 to 27 on offense over the years. Just like they've carried anywhere from 9-11 Offensive line players on the 53. It varies.

To even attempt to do what YOU want would be nothing but a silly wild assed guess. Especially with James White's status being up in the air since recent reports weren't promising that he'd be ready for Training Camp.

Maybe you should go back and look at the Roster tracking threads from the last few years to see just how many RBs and WRs the Patriots have carried.

I'd add that there are more than a few with intriguing swiss army knife potential and some special teams chops. Another thing I want to know about this bunch is, can D'Eriq King do enough stuff well enough that he catches on. Same thing with RBs, we have at least 2 new guys and at least 2 guys that COULD be an every-down back... but wait, special teams! I might just be football starved but this year is somehow super intriguing to me that way.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'd add that there are more than a few with intriguing swiss army knife potential and some special teams chops. Another thing I want to know about this bunch is, can D'Eriq King do enough stuff well enough that he catches on. Same thing with RBs, we have at least 2 new guys and at least 2 guys that COULD be an every-down back... but wait, special teams! I might just be football starved but this year is somehow super intriguing to me that way.

"Swiss Army Types"
Malcolm Perry - WR/RB
D'Eriq King - WR/RB/QB
Marcus Jones - CB/WR/KR/PR
Ty Montgomery - RB/WR

Of those 4, I think that only Marcus Jones has a spot on the roster, barring injuries.
The Pats could go into the season with only Harris and Stevenson as Veteran RBs with Strong and KHarris as having the other two slots with James White starting on the PUP. Though White on the PUP COULD open the door for Montgomery.

I still am surprised we've not seen Agholor moved. I'm also surprised that Meyers hasn't signed his RFA Tender offer. Other teams can no longer sign him unless the Pats rescind their offer.

 

[Kasmir]

I'm skeptical about Zappe. I watched his every TD tape (62!) and he looked awesome, but on the admittedly few Shrine Bowl reps I saw he looked terrible, and at least he looks like he'll need a lot of work to be comfortable under center. A low floor / medium ceiling guy: a project.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm skeptical about Zappe. I watched his every TD tape (62!) and he looked awesome, but on the admittedly few Shrine Bowl reps I saw he looked terrible, and at least he looks like he'll need a lot of work to be comfortable under center. A low floor / medium ceiling guy: a project.

What does Zappe have to do with Thornton?

 

[Wozzy]

Tyquan Thornton intrigues me more than just about every rookie they brought in. His college stats are really efficient, especially at a school that threw the 3rd fewest times in the conference and with a QB who was challenged with inaccuracy... he caught a lot of TD's and contested balls.

Thornton is challenged mobility-wise, if his agility drills are accurate, but he has an odd skill set that a few really great WR's in history also had.

Obviously speed, a guy that fast doesn't necessarily have to challenge you in and out of breaks, but he challenges you vertically if he's a talented route runner and can clear press coverage. He gets separation north and south, he runs to spots on the field and Mac has to hit those spots. But his film shows him to be physical for his slight frame, he uses his hands to clear jams, he blocks in the run game well and often... physicality a good sign.

His vertical leap is great at 38.5" inches, so he can go up to get balls. But something that maybe doesn't get talked about enough is his wingspan. He has really long arms (33 3/8's") for a 6'2" tall guy, longer than any WR on the team.

A 6'2" tall WR with 4.2 speed, 39" vertical leap and arms as long as a pterodactyl... all Mac has to do is throw it high and far... this kid should be able to go get it. He can snatch high balls out of the air on slants and deep outs without jumping. He could be really interesting if he develops.

 

[Kasmir]

What does Zappe have to do with Thornton?

I lost the quote from PatsFanInVA's post that I was trying to reply to. Just restored it manually.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Tyquan Thornton intrigues me more than just about every rookie they brought in. His college stats are really efficient, especially at a school that threw the 3rd fewest times in the conference and with a QB who was challenged with inaccuracy... he caught a lot of TD's and contested balls.

Thornton is challenged mobility-wise, if his agility drills are accurate, but he has an odd skill set that a few really great WR's in history also had.

He's not the most elusive guy rn but this is a good way of looking at it. If he can really maximize his strengths it shouldn't matter that much.

Obviously speed, a guy that fast doesn't necessarily have to challenge you in and out of breaks, but he challenges you vertically if he's a talented route runner and can clear press coverage.

I'd say one of his best attributes after being ridiculously fast is getting off press. Whether that translates to the NFL or not remains to be seen. And yea Mac needs to utilize him and Agholor for that matter.

His vertical leap is great at 38.5" inches, so he can go up to get balls. But something that maybe doesn't get talked about enough is his wingspan. He has really long arms (33 3/8's") for a 6'2" tall guy, longer than any WR on the team.

Only guys with 32 + arms were Burks, D Williams, Ezukanma, Pierce, Woods, London. I believe him and Williams (34/35?) might of had the longest but could be wrong.

A 6'2" tall WR with 4.2 speed, 39" vertical leap and arms as long as a pterodactyl... all Mac has to do is throw it high and far... this kid should be able to go get it. He can snatch high balls out of the air on slants and deep outs without jumping. He could be really interesting if he develops.

Compared to the rest of the group, his skill set sticks out. Back to Agholor, he's not an elite guy but both have legit 4.2-4.3 speed. This should really open up the MOF if things work out.

 

[Salsalife]

I'm taking TT, Full stop. I know this kids gonna be WR1. Gotta think of names for him now. Twin Turbo i like alot. TT express, Tetris...Bye Bye Ty, TNT.

I'm sorry those guys are laughing when I step up to pick anybody.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

"Swiss Army Types"
Malcolm Perry - WR/RB
D'Eriq King - WR/RB/QB
Marcus Jones - CB/WR/KR/PR
Ty Montgomery - RB/WR

Of those 4, I think that only Marcus Jones has a spot on the roster, barring injuries.
The Pats could go into the season with only Harris and Stevenson as Veteran RBs with Strong and KHarris as having the other two slots with James White starting on the PUP. Though White on the PUP COULD open the door for Montgomery.

I still am surprised we've not seen Agholor moved. I'm also surprised that Meyers hasn't signed his RFA Tender offer. Other teams can no longer sign him unless the Pats rescind their offer.

You need a suitor for Agholor. Teams could be skeptical about his value if they don't have a long-ball-throwing god, and forget the Bills because no. There's still time... especially because we haven't seen what guys have in camp. If all our new WRs are more bunk than binky, the best bet might be to see what he's got in '22, at least reap the benefit of a make-or-break year performance. (Although Parker is a safe-ish bet). I think you're right that we only keep Marcus Jones at the WTF position, although D'Eriq is calling to me binkily at the WTAF position.

I'm skeptical about Zappe. I watched his every TD tape (62!) and he looked awesome, but on the admittedly few Shrine Bowl reps I saw he looked terrible, and at least he looks like he'll need a lot of work to be comfortable under center. A low floor / medium ceiling guy: a project.

With Zappe the question is whether to believe the level of competition or believe the crazy numbers. 95% of people would say the level of competition, and this jibes with the tape from the Shrine Bowl saying "nut uh, I look good against a bunch of Webelows too." By the way, the Boy Scouts really struck out on the "tweener" name there, especially given subsequent developments. But I digress. Most likely he's just not what his stats say because nobody is. But hell he's kind of binkying at me too with those crazy numbers

I'm taking TT, Full stop. I know this kids gonna be WR1. Gotta think of names for him now. Twin Turbo i like alot. TT express, Tetris...Bye Bye Ty, TNT.

TyThor - sort of Nordic
T.T. Boy - sort of porndic
TyTh - sort of catholic
Must See TT so don't blink
TT
T2: Judgement Day
T squared as in E=MTsquared, that's right I equated the T to the speed of light... equation swag
The T Train
VelociT
VelociTy
Thornton Hears a WhoDat = when playing N.O.
Thornton Hears a WhoDey = when playing Cincinatti
Thornton Hires a Ho = when Mr. Kraft takes the kid to Florida

ok that's all I got. Dont like the twin turbo but I dont think I like any of these any better.

 

[VJCPatriot]

So what would you consider acceptable numbers (given the high likelihood he's the #5)?

If TT can't rise above the #5 guy, that's an indictment on the draft pick because quite honestly our WRs are not worldbeaters.

Our Best WR right now is arguably Kendrick Bourne, primarily a slot from last year, and maybe Devante Parker IF healthy.

Agholor was a disappointment and didn't even crack 500 yards despite getting paid double digit millions.

Parker is an unknown but could be really good if healthy. But that's a big IF.

The Pro comparison I'm hearing for Tyquan Thornton is Brandin Cooks.



Thornton is a little bit skinnier than Cooks but also a little taller.
Cooks had a decent rookie season with 550 yards and 3 TDs but didn't really start reeling off those 1,000 yard seasons until year 2.

If TT can at least show promise his rookie year and then starts putting up good numbers similar to Cooks after that,
I think we'd be pretty happy with that pick.
He can't be putting up N'Keal Harry numbers though, that would be an absolute disaster.

 

[upstater1]

If TT can't rise above the #5 guy, that's an indictment on the draft pick because quite honestly our WRs are not worldbeaters.

Our Best WR right now is arguably Kendrick Bourne, primarily a slot from last year, and maybe Devante Parker IF healthy.

Agholor was a disappointment and didn't even crack 500 yards despite getting paid double digit millions.

Parker is an unknown but could be really good if healthy. But that's a big IF.

The Pro comparison I'm hearing for Tyquan Thornton is Brandin Cooks.

View attachment 43035

Thornton is a little bit skinnier than Cooks but also a little taller.
Cooks had a decent rookie season with 550 yards and 3 TDs but didn't really start reeling off those 1,000 yard seasons until year 2.

If TT can at least show promise his rookie year and then starts putting up good numbers similar to Cooks after that,
I think we'd be pretty happy with that pick.
He can't be putting up N'Keal Harry numbers though, that would be an absolute disaster.

Just FYI, but Davante Adams and Chris Godwin caught 38 and 34 balls and 400+ and 300+ yards respectively their rookie years.

We have 4 good receivers already on the team. Meyers caught 83 balls last year!! Agholor had 900 yards the year before. If anything, Thornton should target Agholor's reps. His best chance. Because he's not beating out Meyers and his 83 receptions. Nor is he beating out Bourne, who is our "best" as you say.

And with Hunter Henry and increased incorporation of Jonnu Smith into the scheme, there's even less space for him.

He's here because he's the future hopefully, and we'll need to transition away from Agholor and maybe one of the 3 others soon.

 

[DaBruinz]

Our Best WR right now is arguably Kendrick Bourne, primarily a slot from last year, and maybe Devante Parker IF healthy.

Not sure where you got that Bourne was primarily a "slot" guy, but that's incorrect.

Bourne lined up 232 times in the slot and 372 times wide.

I think that with Bourne, Parker and Thornton, the Patriots have 3 guys who can run their route trees from ANY of the positions on the field. Which makes them that much harder to cover. We saw how extremely hard Edelman was to cover. Imagine 3 guys with the ability (to some extent or another) to do this? (and no, I'm not saying that they have Edelman's elusiveness, just the ability to run the 9 different routes)

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

If TT can't rise above the #5 guy, that's an indictment on the draft pick because quite honestly our WRs are not worldbeaters.

Our Best WR right now is arguably Kendrick Bourne, primarily a slot from last year, and maybe Devante Parker IF healthy.

Agholor was a disappointment and didn't even crack 500 yards despite getting paid double digit millions.

Parker is an unknown but could be really good if healthy. But that's a big IF.

The Pro comparison I'm hearing for Tyquan Thornton is Brandin Cooks.

View attachment 43035

Thornton is a little bit skinnier than Cooks but also a little taller.
Cooks had a decent rookie season with 550 yards and 3 TDs but didn't really start reeling off those 1,000 yard seasons until year 2.

If TT can at least show promise his rookie year and then starts putting up good numbers similar to Cooks after that,
I think we'd be pretty happy with that pick.
He can't be putting up N'Keal Harry numbers though, that would be an absolute disaster.

Maybe it is symantics, but 5" in extra height to me is a lot taller, not a "little taller". Different player due to his height and wing span. As tall as TT is, plus arm length and vertical, he is much more of a red zone threat. TT is not as quick but I think we need more of a vertical and red zone threat than a jitter bug. Really like the potential and am trusting Groh on the scouting. With Mac throwing a great long ball this could be fun like we have not seen in over 12+ years.

Still think we need a "fatty" and an EDGE, but TT might be a lot more fun.