Patriots new OC - Alex Van Pelt

[Ivan]

The best player in this draft is Harrison, we would be fools to pass him by if he is available at number
3.

Daniel’s and Williams scare me as far as qb’s go.

If maye and harrison are on the board at 3, what can we get from Arizona to move down one pick????

Name any championship franchise built around a WR?

 

[DarrylS]

After the '21 debacle of Wilson #2, Lance #3, Fields #11 and Jones #15 am a tad skeptical about any QB in this years draft, move back a couple of slots pick up some draft capital and start a rebuild with LT, WR, TE and receiving RB...
Thinking about the days when our offense was smooth and feared there was always whining about WR's (except when Moss was here), but always had a decent TE and receiving RB...
This team has to go back to what made them successful, a quick fix will probably impede their re-emergence...

Copied this from the draft forum, but consider:

2012: Trade back. Vikings traded pick #3 to the Browns for picks #4, 118 (4th), 139 (5th) & 211 (7th)
2013. Trade back. Raiders traded pick #3 to Dolphins for picks #12 & 42 (2nd)
2018: Trade back: Colts traded pick #3 to Jets for picks #6, 37 & 49 (2nds) & 2019 2nd rounder
2021: Trade back: Dolphins traded picks #3 to 49ers for picks #12, 2022 1st & 3rd and 2023 1st
2022: Trade back: Arizona traded picks #3 & 105(4th) to Texans for picks #12, #33 (2nd), 2024 1st & 3rd

2017: Trade up: Bears traded #3, 67 (3rd), 111 (4th) & 2018 3rrd to 49ers for pick #2

 

[Ivan]

Joe Alt over MHJ.

Once again, when has a championship team ever been built around a tackle? That’s not dismissing the importance of the position, but the browns drafted Joe Thomas, he had a HIF. career and they went through numerous QB’s and never won anything.

 

[Ivan]

After the '21 debacle of Wilson #2, Lance #3, Fields #11 and Jones #15 am a tad skeptical about any QB in this years draft, move back a couple of slots pick up some draft capitol and start a rebuild with LT, WR, TE and receiving RB...
Thinking about the days when our offense was smooth and feared there was always whining about WR's (except when Moss was here), but always had a decent TE and receiving RB...
This team has to go back to what made them successful, a quick fix will probably impede their re-emergence...

Copied this from the draft forum, but consider:

2012: Trade back. Vikings traded pick #3 to the Browns for picks #4, 118 (4th), 139 (5th) & 211 (7th)
2013. Trade back. Raiders traded pick #3 to Dolphins for picks #12 & 42 (2nd)
2018: Trade back: Colts traded pick #3 to Jets for picks #6, 37 & 49 (2nds) & 2019 2nd rounder
2021: Trade back: Dolphins traded picks #3 to 49ers for picks #12, 2022 1st & 3rd and 2023 1st
2022: Trade back: Arizona traded picks #3 & 105(4th) to Texans for picks #12, #33 (2nd), 2024 1st & 3rd

2017: Trade up: Bears traded #3, 67 (3rd), 111 (4th) & 2018 3rrd to 49ers for pick #2

It’s like Belichick never left. Just trade back and trade back ……..

 

[Ivan]

There is no argument that QB is the number 1 need and that Zappe Jones is not a strategic solution. The only debate is where and when to find the QB. If the Pats draft a tackle it is to protect the future QB.

You can great a really good LT in the second half of the first, or 34th pick, and the same goes for WR’s, which will run into the 3rd and fourth rounds. You can’t get your QB that way. And if they don’t get their QB then all that tackle is protecting is the worst QB’s in football, as Joe Thomas did throughout his entire career.

 

[Uptown]

Can anyone confirm this?..

 

[Ivan]

Thank you. My aim is to stay on top of the facts.

And he confused amaze with stupefy, which is the effect facts have upon him.

 

[DarrylS]

It’s like Belichick never left. Just trade back and trade back ……..

Why not, as there are so many holes to fill??

 

[Ross12]

Given how vital the run game is to AvP's schemes, maybe it's better to prioritize OTs.

Say we trade #3 w/ LAC or NYG and pick up Alt. We can then use their trade picks to move up and pick up Guyton at end of 1st. That'll give them twin towers at T. Pick up a WR in the 2nd/3rd. Bring in a vet bridge QB, a WR1, TE1 a stud RB, FS in FAcy. Pick up other O and D positions w/ remaining picks.

The only ? is there a franchise QB in '25 to target (Ewers?) and could we even reach that QB from wherever we end up picking.

I guess it's just **** it, IWWT.

I’ve preached almost the exact same plan here but I’m also really wary of finding a franchise QB later… Part of me feels like you gotta take your shot when you have your pick this high, then build up what you can elsewhere, even if it’s incomplete. If the guy you get isn’t “the guy” then you’ll have another chance to pick high soon.

Different trains of thought I guess. I think the one you covered is the most logical but also is the one that leads you to becoming the Steelers or Titans of recent times. Good in most areas but QB is meh. Leads to being just over .500, a playoff berth, but not much more, for a while. Eventually, you end up in the doldrums again anyway.

 

[Ross12]

Can anyone confirm this?..

Not exactly. They were trying to blend zone run schemes into their existing offense, and simplify the route concepts so that it was easier on receivers. Essentially they were trying to push their existing offense towards a West Coast offense (AVP’s offense) without completely changing it. It was a good idea in theory. The problem was that they had absolutely no ****ing idea what they were doing and did a horrible job teaching it, and the implementation was overly basic and bad. Eventually they had to lean back towards the standard historical offense and run schemes.

The other issue was that this change took pre-snap control away from Mac, but one of Mac’s strengths was his intelligence and ability read the defense before the play and adjust the protection or change the play to take advantage of what he was seeing. They moved back to BOB in 2023 which gave Mac these controls back but also scrapped all of the zone run concepts and re-complicated the route running and thinking that the receivers need to do.

Hopefully that makes sense. Essentially Patricia, Judge and Bill went kinda-sorta-halfway towards this kind of offense in 2022 but didn’t know what they were doing and did a terrible job of it, and largely switched back as the season went on.

 

[borg]

Still gettin goosebumps.
Can't believe we got AVP

 

[pats99]

The main thing I have concerns on is that Van Pelt had a lot of success with zone run concepts but he had a pretty good OL. NE has a bad OL and that OL has no experience with zone… For all we know, the inner “core” of starters that we assume don’t need replacing (Strange-Andrews-Sow) may not be a fit in the new scheme.

That said, Strange is very athletic and I think may actually be a better fit for a zone scheme than power. Sow is probably fine.

Another thing occurred to me - they traded for Tyrone Wheatley Jr, who was Cleveland’s reserve RT last preseason. So he might be plug-and-play at RT?

Hmm, wonder if ~ "running back whisperer" Stump Mitchell, (fired along with Van Pelt) going to be our Running Backs coach.

Actually not just Stump Mitchell. Didn't realize that Elliot Wolf was assistant GM before coming over to the Pats.
So lets speculate on what our staff might/could be.
Yikes, a lot of Cleavland Browns connections.

Elliot Wolfe our new GM. (before joining Pats, he was assistant GM of Cleavland, currently Pats director of Scouting)
Alex Van Pelt offensive coordinator (fired from Cleavland, our new OC, Done)
Stump Mitchell (fired from Cleavland) RBs coach
Chad O'Shea (remember this up and coming guy, currently WR coach at Cleavland (is he avail, are we looking for something new here)

 

[Ross12]

Actually not just Stump Mitchell. Didn't realize that Elliot Wolf was assistant GM before coming over to the Pats.
So lets speculate on what our staff might/could be.
Yikes, a lot of Cleavland Browns connections.

Elliot Wolfe our new GM. (before joining Pats, he was assistant GM of Cleavland, currently Pats director of Scouting)
Alex Van Pelt offensive coordinator (fired from Cleavland, our new OC, Done)
Stump Mitchell (fired from Cleavland) RBs coach
Chad O'Shea (remember this up and coming guy, currently WR coach at Cleavland (is he avail, are we looking for something new here)

I actually wouldn’t mind Chad O’Shea coming back.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

You can great a really good LT in the second half of the first, or 34th pick, and the same goes for WR’s, which will run into the 3rd and fourth rounds. You can’t get your QB that way. And if they don’t get their QB then all that tackle is protecting is the worst QB’s in football, as Joe Thomas did throughout his entire career.

I agree that the highest percentage to find a QB is to pick high in the draft. All of the QB discussions and draft history has made it clear that drafting a QB is no sure thing and knowing that a certain QB draft class will be great is also unreliable. A team needs to be aggressive when given the opportunity to pic a QB while being disciplined enough to avoid wasting a pick. FWIW I hope the team has a player in mind and get him with the 3rd pick.

History doesn't really tell us much about right way to go. Teams have failed and succeeded with either option. Joe Thomas is an extreme case of sad. Even then, the Browns would have been worse if they used that pick on another QB that did not work out. Archie Manning is the other end of the spectrum, where he was a great QB who suffered through a lost career. The Pats have already played the QB lottery once, lets hope it comes out better this time.

 

[upstater1]

Can anyone confirm this?..

Yes, they did go West Coast, and they did go zone blocking, simplified the offense. But here are the problems: an offense is much much more than simply scheming, play calling, or even overall strategies. It's mostly the attention to detail by every player, the cues they pick up about what the man they're matching is doing, the techniques they'll use to execute the play. Without that, you're a fish out of water when you adopt a new scheme.

This is why the offense went wrong. Not because Patricia didn't understand the scheme (of course he did) but he was incapable of teaching the details that go toward making the scheme work.

This is exactly what scares me about the team going away from Belichick's style of teaching. The attention to details is fundamental to the style of play that was here for many years. Bend but don't break, taking advantage of what the defense is giving, these may be concepts of the past. We'll be like other teams that are ultra aggressive, all out mentality, a strategy that relies on the talent of the players much more than anything else. In other words, they'll be like every other team.

 

[upstater1]

I agree that the highest percentage to find a QB is to pick high in the draft. All of the QB discussions and draft history has made it clear that drafting a QB is no sure thing and knowing that a certain QB draft class will be great is also unreliable. A team needs to be aggressive when given the opportunity to pic a QB while being disciplined enough to avoid wasting a pick. FWIW I hope the team has a player in mind and get him with the 3rd pick.

History doesn't really tell us much about right way to go. Teams have failed and succeeded with either option. Joe Thomas is an extreme case of sad. Even then, the Browns would have been worse if they used that pick on another QB that did not work out. Archie Manning is the other end of the spectrum, where he was a great QB who suffered through a lost career. The Pats have already played the QB lottery once, lets hope it comes out better this time.

They have to go QB in the first UNLESS they are 75% convinced Jayden Daniels will not be a QB in this league.

If they are 50% doubtful, I feel bad for them, because they are then gambling with their futures, and they have to take him anyway/

If they have doubts about 25% of his game and its translatability to the NFL, they better take him.

I can't imagine any team will pass up the chance to take Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. It's Daniels who is the question mark.

 

[upstater1]

I’ve preached almost the exact same plan here but I’m also really wary of finding a franchise QB later… Part of me feels like you gotta take your shot when you have your pick this high, then build up what you can elsewhere, even if it’s incomplete. If the guy you get isn’t “the guy” then you’ll have another chance to pick high soon.

Different trains of thought I guess. I think the one you covered is the most logical but also is the one that leads you to becoming the Steelers or Titans of recent times. Good in most areas but QB is meh. Leads to being just over .500, a playoff berth, but not much more, for a while. Eventually, you end up in the doldrums again anyway.

The Bills too. 25 years of heartache. 18 years without playoffs. They spent a lot of #1 and #2 draft picks on QBs. It wasn't until they took Josh Allen at the 6th pick that they hit. EJ Manuel, Trent Edwards, JP Losman, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Todd Collins. 4 1st rd picks, 2 2nd picks wasted. But Manuel and Losman were late in the round, Johnson and Bledsoe were obviously starters elsewhere, and 2nd rounders are 2nd rounders.

Let's not talk about the Jets though: yikes! Sanchez, Darnold, Wilson. They are the reverse of the Bills.

 

[upstater1]

It’s like Belichick never left. Just trade back and trade back ……..

But of course, Belichick traded back when he had 2nd round values in the late first round.

The 6 times he picked in the top, he never traded out of the meat of the 1st round (including last year with Gonzalez). Heck, in deep drafts, he even traded up to the edge of the 1st round grades with Chandler Jones and Donte Hightower.

He went purely by grades, not by the pressure to fill holes and needs on the roster.

 

[upstater1]

And by the time you have spent 2 off-seasons on the O, the D is gone. You can't focus your assets on one side of the ball like that.

25 Free Agents on the D side of the ball in '24 and '25

You simply have to hit on the best players, you have to hit on your picks.

This is the main thing.

People would probably be surprised to learn we spent 16 picks on offense the last 3 years, and only 11 on defense. Most of the FA signings were on offense.

Before people say that the draft picks on O were low picks, they were not, two firsts and a second. The draft value between both sides of the ball was the same.

The difference is that they hit on the draft picks on D and the FAs like Matthew Judon. Whereas on offense we have Mac Jones and Tyquan. Rham and the OL are basically the only things we have to show for drafting. The offense was not neglected at all, as much as it just became a failed evaluation process.

The defense looks great because they brought on Barmore, Dugger, Gonzalez, Marcus Jones, Peppers, Judon, Keion, Mack Wilson, Anfernee, Uche... So many good picks, trades, and FAs.

On offense, I maintain our QBs make everyone look bad. While I don't think Tyquan would work out on any team, I'd have high confidence that players like Hunter Henry, JuJu, Parker, Bourne, Rham, would work out if only we had a QB. A good QB would also make Onwenu, Strange, Sow and Andrews look much much better than they looked this past year.

The Patriots have thrown away some good young OL in the past who ended up going elsewhere and having strong careers, like Froholdt and Fleming. They shouldn't do this again just because there are dysfunctions elsewhere on the offense.

 

[upstater1]

If next year was going to be a good QB draft then it might be a different question, but it’s supposed to suck at QB, which means that 26’ will be the next real opportunity to get one, and that means waiting until at least 27’ for them to really start contributing. Additionally this is a great tackle and WR class, so they can take the swab at 3, then move up for either OT or WR and get a starter ther, and then just load up at the positions of need with the rest of the draft and free agency.. This is why I want them to address the QB with that 3rd pick, and I’m fine with any one of the 3.

I'm a big fan of Drew Allar at Penn State. He has horrible support there (poor OC, no WRs) but he looks fantastic. I like the fact that even with no WRs and with OCs that get fired in the middle of the year, he hardly ever throws an INT. He's one to watch. 6'5" 250 doesn't throw INTs. Can run.


Drew Allar highlights, capped off with a 70 yard throw on the money: drew allar highlights - Google Search