Patriots 2013 Training Camp: Day 6, Thursday August 1

[Ring 6]

More hyperbole.... go figure

Are you saying he is closer to the best than to a bad nfl QB? If so, have a nice day, it would be pointless to continue

 

[sb1]

"Can't throw a forward pass" is not objective analysis... its hyperbole... and its used a lot. There's claims that there are extremes on both sides... people saying he sucks and can't play at all and people who say he's the best. The problem is I can point to post after post after post of the former (heck... just listen to Adam on the PFW podcast yesterday), but you'd be hard pressed to find a single post from any of the HORDES of Tebow "zealots" like me saying he's the best... or even using crazy terms like great or above average... you won't find it.

I haven't seen anyone say "Tebow is the best" but I have seen people get slammed for "hating" Tebow if they say something that falls even just a tiny bit short of smooching TT's backside.

That's just as ridiculous IMO.

 

[Ring 6]

Well Andy if you don't see bigotry against Tebow after going through this entire thread than we'll have to agree to disagree. The bigotry against Tebow by some is very strong.

It's not bigotry. May be dislike. What characteristic of tebow are people bigoted against?
Lack of skill isn't a class of bigotry.

 

[g8orballboy]

Are you saying he is closer to the best than to a bad nfl QB? If so, have a nice day, it would be pointless to continue

Not in the least... but i also don't think he's as close to the bad nfl qb side of the spectrum as you do either. Here's where I feel he fits:

Worst Ever................................Average.............................HOF Caliber
|---------------------------X---------|-------------C----------------------|

X = Current, C=Ceiling

Here's what many people truly believe

......Worst Ever............................Average...............................HOF Caliber
X--------|--C--------------------------------|------------------------------------|


Thats what drives me insane. But to your point... I don't think its fair to be called a hater just because you may believe this:

Worst Ever...............................Average...............................HOF Caliber
|---------X-------------------C-------|------------------------------------|


Edited for format

 

[Ring 6]

big·ot·ry

/?b?g?tri/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled [big-uh-tree] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun, plural big·ot·ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

This is what is ridiculous. Tebow apologists want to bring bigotry into it to somehow dismiss negative opinions.
It is actually an insult to people who truly face bigotry in the real world, but ultimately its the Tebow pom pom wavers way of belittling legitimate analysis.

 

[Ring 6]

Not in the least... but i also don't think he's as close to the bad nfl qb side of the spectrum as you do either. Here's where I feel he fits:

Worst Ever Average HOF Caliber
!---------------------------X---------!-------------C----------------------!

X = Current, C=Ceiling

Here's what many people truly believe

Worst Ever Average HOF Caliber
X !C-----------------------------------!------------------------------------!


Thats what drives me insane. But to your point... I don't think its fair to be called a hater just because you may believe this:

Worst Ever Average HOF Caliber
!---------X-------------------C-------!------------------------------------!


Edited for format

Yeah, you lost me there. Tebow can't throw the football accurately at the NFL level. That is a fatal flaw and therefore he is not a quality NFL QB. His skillset, which would be gimmickry at this level, does not equate to the way the game is played at the NFL level. If any of your little charts there presume to say he is more than a 3rd string QB I would disagree.
If BB didn't take a chance as a #3 project he would not be in the NFL. Thats the real bottom line.

 

[Snake Eyes]

It's not bigotry. May be dislike. What characteristic of tebow are people bigoted against?
Lack of skill isn't a class of bigotry.

C'mon Andy, you're smarter than that. PLENTY of people hate him because of his outspoken commitment to his faith.

 

[Ring 6]

C'mon Andy, you're smarter than that. PLENTY of people hate him because of his outspoken commitment to his faith.

I do not agree, and the discussion is about him playing football. Are you truly trying to tell me that people who really think he is a good QB run around saying he sucks because of his religion?
That is exactly the point. He is being judged fairly as a football player.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Not in the least... but i also don't think he's as close to the bad nfl qb side of the spectrum as you do either. Here's where I feel he fits:

Worst Ever................................Average.............................HOF Caliber
|---------------------------X---------|-------------C----------------------|

X = Current, C=Ceiling

Here's what many people truly believe

......Worst Ever............................Average...............................HOF Caliber
X--------|--C--------------------------------|------------------------------------|


Thats what drives me insane. But to your point... I don't think its fair to be called a hater just because you may believe this:

Worst Ever...............................Average...............................HOF Caliber
|---------X-------------------C-------|------------------------------------|


Edited for format

Sign me up for the third one. He's effective in a limited role in some capacities, but at age 26, I don't buy that he's suddenly going to succeed in reinventing how he throws the ball, after 5 years in the NFL of failing to do that. He's old enough, at this point, that his hypothetical ceiling just shouldn't be the debating point that it tends to be. At 21, I could have bought it, but at 26 he basically is what he is as a player. The changes that he would need to undertake to become a league-average NFL quarterback just aren't going to happen, IMO. They would have already if they were going to.

 

[Ring 6]

Sign me up for the third one. He's effective in a limited role in some capacities, but at age 26, I don't buy that he's suddenly going to succeed in reinventing how he throws the ball, after 5 years in the NFL of failing to do that. He's old enough, at this point, that his hypothetical ceiling just shouldn't be the debating point that it tends to be. At 21, I could have bought it, but at 26 he basically is what he is as a player. The changes that he would need to undertake to become a league-average NFL quarterback just aren't going to happen, IMO. They would have already if they were going to.

Every player in the league could be an allpro if you take the most important skill at their position and ignore or eliminate their deficiency. Thats why I don't get the 'if he threw differently' argument. He doesn't. If he learns to thenreevaluate.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

C'mon Andy, you're smarter than that. PLENTY of people hate him because of his outspoken commitment to his faith.

Facts. I don't think all of his critics come from that place, but there are more than enough examples out there.

 

[Ring 6]

Facts. I don't think all of his critics come from that place, but there are more than enough examples out there.

You think their evaluation of him as a qb is tainted and people lie about his ability because of it?
That is what would make bigotry pertinent to talking about him as a football player.

 

[sb1]

C'mon Andy, you're smarter than that. PLENTY of people hate him because of his outspoken commitment to his faith.

Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick are extremely outspoken and committed to their faith.

So was Reggie White. Minister of Defense anyone?

Funny how nobody "hates" them.

So I don't buy Tebow is "hated" for his faith at all. It has a lot more to do with his abilities on the field, combined with the irrational Tebowite "You are a HATER" response to anything that falls just short of smooching Tebow's rumpside.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

You think their evaluation of him as a qb is tainted and people lie about his ability because of it?
That is what would make bigotry pertinent to talking about him as a football player.

Yes and no. Some of them have enough knowledge of the game to see his flaws compared to most NFL signal callers but usually their bigotry shows in the extreme hyperbole while assessing said flaws.

For instance "Tim Tebow is the worst QB in the league and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn" while that statement acknowledges Tebow's below average accuracy at times which is true, is he really the worst? Couldn't he be just as good a backup as Joe Webb if not better? It's the over the top magnification of what he is poor at that usually gives it away. The same goes for the Tebow zealots for the most part.

 

[g8orballboy]

Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick are extremely outspoken and committed to their faith.

So was Reggie White. Minister of Defense anyone?

Funny how nobody "hates" them.

So I don't buy Tebow is "hated" for his faith at all. It has a lot more to do with his abilities on the field, combined with the irrational Tebowite "You are a HATER" response to anything that falls just short of smooching Tebow's rumpside.

By your definition then I guess I should call myself a hater then... since I'm certainly not kissing his you know what. Hard for me buy into your argument when I'm also critical of him. I just see a ton of potential and unique talent. He's a WELL below average passer and a great power runner (something you don't often see from the qb position)... i guess that means i'm kissing his @$$? ridiculous argument is ridiculous.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes and no. Some of them have enough knowledge of the game to see his flaws compared to most NFL signal callers but usually their bigotry shows in the extreme hyperbole while assessing said flaws.

For instance "Tim Tebow is the worst QB in the league and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn" while that statement acknowledges Tebow's below average accuracy at times which is true, is he really the worst? Couldn't he be just as good a backup as Joe Webb if not better? It's the over the top magnification of what he is poor at that usually gives it away. The same goes for the Tebow zealots for the most part.

But who actually says he is the worst QB in the league and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. That's a strawman just like the bigot argument.
Clearly he is one of the worst because he is struggling to be employed in the league as a QB and seems to be on the only team that will give h a shot.
If 31 teams don't want you then in fact you are one of the worst

 

[sb1]

By your definition then I guess I should call myself a hater then... since I'm certainly not kissing his you know what. Hard for me buy into your argument when I'm also critical of him. I just see a ton of potential and unique talent. He's a WELL below average passer and a great power runner (something you don't often see from the qb position)... i guess that means i'm kissing his @$$? ridiculous argument is ridiculous.

My point is his faith had very little to do with why he gets criticized.

Why doesn't Kaepernick get slammed for his tattoos of biblical verses?

The idea that Tebow is somehow being persecuted or attacked for his faith is complete nonsense.

And - not referring to anyone in particular- I've seen a theme that if you have concerns about his abilities and you are not convinced he's going to make this team better then that logically means you hate the guy. Which is also nonsense.

 

[g8orballboy]

My point is his faith had very little to do with why he gets criticized.

Why doesn't Kaepernick get slammed for his tattoos of biblical verses?

The idea that Tebow is somehow being persecuted or attacked for his faith is complete nonsense.

And - not referring to anyone in particular- I've seen a theme that if you have concerns about his abilities and you are not convinced he's going to make this team better then that logically means you hate the guy. Which is also nonsense.

He's a polarizing figure... plane and simple. His religion is just part of the complex formula that makes up why people love an/or hate him. It is NOT the sole reason. But to say that there aren't those out there that dislike him based on his religion alone is also ignorant.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

But who actually says he is the worst QB in the league and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. That's a strawman just like the bigot argument.
Clearly he is one of the worst because he is struggling to be employed in the league as a QB and seems to be on the only team that will give h a shot.
If 31 teams don't want you then in fact you are one of the worst

I don't want to accuse you of being obtuse but if you want to find examples of those kind of statements against Tebow they really aren't hard to find. I agree he is ONE of the worst at certain tangible abilities, there are plenty of sub par passers on NFL rosters. Joe Webb who started a playoff game for the Vikings was one of them. He was pretty terrible as well.

Players don't make it on NFL rosters for a plethora of different reasons. But it isn't always skill or lack thereof. Tebow isn't a starter but I would wager that the reluctance to sign him as a backup has more to do with the circus and how it could impact the locker room. Example, if you have a struggling entrenched young starter Tebow is the last thing your team needs. How many teams are carrying 3 QB's? I think Tebow is as bad/good as most of those guys as far as long shot projects go, absent the stuff he brings with him.

I have other points but I really hate posting from my iPhone

Edit: when I talk about reading statements about Tebow I was referring to his critics in general on the Internet and in debates not just this forum.

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm not exactly paying close attention but it seems to me people aren't really ripping tebow as much as they are just saying he isn't good. That isn't ripping that is a reasonable opinion.

Then Andy, you're right about not exactly paying close attention . It goes far, far beyond people saying that he isn't good. Just look at Chasa's posts in this thread and extrapolate from there.

My point is his faith had very little to do with why he gets criticized.

Why doesn't Kaepernick get slammed for his tattoos of biblical verses?

The idea that Tebow is somehow being persecuted or attacked for his faith is complete nonsense.

And - not referring to anyone in particular- I've seen a theme that if you have concerns about his abilities and you are not convinced he's going to make this team better then that logically means you hate the guy. Which is also nonsense.

Really SB1 ? Show us any instance of this happening ? Of someone offering an honest/factual critique and being lambasted by any Tebow supporter.


You all have this erroneous notion that we Tebow fans think that he is God's gift to the NFL and that we run around and attack anyone who dares say that Tebow has flaws or might not be that good.

Thing is, you can't find any real evidence of this happening. What you will find is supporters coming to his defense when someone on the other side of the aisle makes over the top hyperbolic statements.