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Pass rush?

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With Trey Flowers, Derek Rivers, Wise, etc., I'm less worried about a pass rush than I am by our linebackers inability to cover anyone. The Eagles with Foles did what they wanted to our back 7.
 
You can’t be serious.. that essentially proves my point. Eric Lee is not that good. At all.

Huh. Lee has appeared in six regular season NFL games in his career and played a total of 281 defensive snaps - all with the Pats beginning in wk-12 last season. He posted 19 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PDs, 1 INT an scored a safety.

But you can already tell that he's "not good". I have to wonder, if he'd been a rookie draft pick and had posted those numbers in the first six games of his NFL career, would you feel differently about him?
 
I'd be shocked if we don't take at least one edge rusher and at least one linebacker tomorrow and maybe someone that can cover a rb as well. Would be nice to know going into training camp that guys like Richards and E. Roberts will probably not make the team
 
Huh. Lee has appeared in six regular season NFL games in his career and played a total of 281 defensive snaps - all with the Pats beginning in wk-12 last season. He posted 19 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 2 PDs, 1 INT an scored a safety.

But you can already tell that he's "not good". I have to wonder, if he'd been a rookie draft pick and had posted those numbers in the first six games of his NFL career, would you feel differently about him?
Most of that was in one game. He’s extremely limited and basically overachieved at times last year. Did he do anything in the postseason when it mattered?
 
There are times when all of the wheelin' and dealin' does get a little puzzling.

On the other hand we have enjoyed a golden era of football...
 

Ndamukong Suh? 8 seasons, 0-1 in the playoffs. suspended for 3 games, fined 4 times totaling more than $200k. If you look in the dictionary for the definition of a douchebag, you'll find a picture of Ndamukong Suh.
 
Most of that was in one game.

No, it wasn't. His sacks occurred in three different games. He had a PD in two others. He had between 2 and 4 tackles in every game in a limited role.

He’s extremely limited and basically overachieved at times last year.

He's young (23). He was extremely inexperienced. He had no off-season or Camp with the Pats, but was put on the field in week-12 and played the first 25 defensive snaps of his NFL career. His 281 total regular season snaps were split almost exactly evenly between OLB and DE.

Did he do anything in the postseason when it mattered?

James Harrison was signed just before the regular season finale. In the post-season, Harrison took most of Lee's snaps and some from Marquis Flowers. Lee did have more tackles against JAX than Wise or Marquis Flowers, despite getting fewer snaps. Neither Lee nor (rookie) Wise played much in the SB.

Lee was effectively an NFL rookie who stepped in during week-12 without any development time in the Pats' system or schemes whatsoever. He made numerous mistakes (duh!), but was also in exactly the right spot to make a significant play on several different occasions (he achieved beyond all reasonable expectations, yes). He lost snaps in the post-season to a newly-signed veteran - one of the best OLB/DEs to ever play the game and a lock for the HoF.

I'm not saying that he's "great". At all. I'm just saying that he clearly demonstrated some potential and that it seems way too early to me for the summary judgment that "he's not good", as in "never will be." It seems only reasonable to me to wait and see how he responds to a full off-season of training from Pats coaches, and how he performs in the pre-season, before making an evaluation one way or the other.
 
The Eagles with Foles did what they wanted to our back 7.

1) That sentence just looks way too much like a prison memoir
2) Hey now, that Nick Foles is a Super Bowl winning quarterback!
3) We always want other QBs to at least not sip tea in the pocket, however, here are the Patriots' reg. season sack totals since 2001:
Statistics
(Italics - lost SB; bold - won SB)

2017...42
2016...34
2015...49
2014...40
2013...48
2012...37
2011...40
2010...36
2009...31
2008...31
2007...47
2006...44
2005...33
2004...45
2003...41

2002...34
2001...41

Clearly, for ease of analysis, I'm using regular season sacks as a proxy for whether we can pressure the QB. I invite anybody to compile the numbers for hurries, pressures, playoff stats instead of regular season, etc. - whatever you believe to be a more "true" proxy for whether we can competently rush the QB. If you can't be bothered to gather an alternative data set and explain why you'd use it, don't bother saying "yeah but that's a misleading data set."

I especially invite the same simple analysis as used here, but using opponent sacks as the key metric, to see whether protecting Brady is more or less important than generating pressure (once again, with the caveat that I know you can pressure without sacking.)

For purposes of this post, we'll continue using the best-known stat (sacks) and the largest data set (regular season) as our proxy for pass rush.

A few things are immediately apparent:

1) Our ability to sack the QB is range-bound.
Since 2001, our low is 31; our high is 49. We top out at "elite for a generally down sack year." We don't top out at "one for the ages."

For comparison, in 2017, Pittsburgh led the league with 56. We had 42. (Some years, the league leader gets 60+ sacks (e.g., 2013 Panthers); other years its in the 40s.)
2013 NFL Team Defense Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2) Within the Patriots range, 2017 was an up year.
We've had 5 seasons with more sacks than in 2017 (42). We've had 11 with fewer sacks than in 2017.

3) Using sacks as a proxy, pressure does not win championships for NE. Those 11 seasons with fewer sacks than 2017 included 4 out of 5 SB-winning seasons. In fact, 40-41 sacks of the opposing QB in the regular season seems most predictive of a SB win. *(2017 resulted in 42 sacks). This is nearly but not completely devoid of meaning; it does support that some other stat is the "key," to the extent that statistical breakdowns have predictive power. In the 2004 off-season, we were losing Ted Washington, with no idea of how well we could replace him. Granted, he clogged the interior so somebody else could do the fancy stuff. But it was an impact that had to be addressed. In 2004 we responded by drafting VW (And Benjamin Watson) in the first round, and the late Marquise Hill (DE) in the second. We also immediately plugged in Keith Traylor until we knew VW was VW, if I remember correctly. (Hill was something of an understudy/bargaining tactic vis a vis Richard Seymour). That investment yielded an actual increase in the proxy stat in 2004, but this dropped to a near-low for the series in 2005 (That said, T. Bruschi had his stroke, Ted Johnson left, Ty Law was released, etc., prior to 2005.)

4) However, the Patriots are the winningest team in the NFL during this time span.

If we accept sacks as a proxy for the importance of QB pressure in NE's defensive scheme in the Brady/Belichick era, we find a group that generally is able to get pressure in the top quarter of the league, sometimes among the top couple of teams in the league. Not bad, but a beatable group, certainly at the highest level.

When we evaluate an aspect of the game by the final game of the season, the SB, we "eye test" for something, "analyze" a "weakness," and "demand that it be shored up."

Or we might say, "Sure we can pile up the stats against weaker teams but when it comes down to it..." etc. Well, when it comes down to it, unexpected stars shine. No David Tyree, no loss in the 2008 SB. When it comes right down to it, outliers have an outsized influence on a very small data-set. Your superstar receiver might be handled efficiently, and your scrub might win the game; your rookie corner might make the game-winning interception. Etcetera. (BTW this principle illustrate further, as if we needed further proof, the greatness of TFB.)

All this begs the question of what you would fix before the present moment in time, and the related question of whether you'd be right to expend the resources in that way.

As regards injuries:
In any year, for any team, you can say "Yes, but ____ got injured in week ___." This explains fluctuations within a year, and drop-offs in the late season (in turn, something of a weak proxy for the post-season.)

However, these fluctuations cannot be predicted in advance, which is the key to planning for future results. For example, if you draft or otherwise acquire a whole passel of pass-rush talent in the off-season of 2018, there's no guarantee that they'll pan out, or that the best of them will be healthy by the post-season next year.

Aside: Getting guys back makes us think that we'll get back their pre-injury capabilities -- here, evaluation makes more knowledge available the closer you are to the team. I cannot evaluate whether we get 100% Hightower back, or 98% Hightower, or a guy named Hightower who used to be really good. I'm assuming we're getting back something like pre-injury Hightower, because I'm irrationally optimistic. (although for the sake of this proxy stat about pressure, Donta has never been personally responsible for more than the 6 sacks he tallied in 2014.)

Stats have only so much power. But I think in the case of pass-rushing, they paint a portrait of the highs/lows we can expect in the Pats' scheme combined with the personnel resources we commit to the pressure game. If McNabb had shown some urgency (and had some success while displaying urgency) in 2003, fans would have clamored to shore up the pass rush on the basis that it lost the SB. Instead, we clamored to shore up the pass rush in response to 2004 off-season departures and upcoming possible departures (Ted Washington, Richard Seymour.) As I recall, throughout the 3-out-of-4 run in the 2000ies, we clamored for mo' pass rush.

1-2 above characterizes the Pats' experience as a pass-rushing team over the seasons in the BB/Brady era. 3-4 above shows the effectiveness of the relative value the Pats place on the pass rush as evidenced in 1-2.

There's an argument to be made that a monstrous QB-pressure talent would be (/has been) muted in the Patriots' scheme, and that it is therefore a waste of upside to fixate on one outstanding pass-rusher; I'll leave that argument to more astute students of the game than myself. A total of less than 40 sacks "predicted" only 1 Super Bowl victory, in 2016. On the flip side, a group that compiles more than the pass-rush firepower of 2017 has proven unnecessary to win the SB, to the extent that our proxy stat has any predictive power.

Using only these broad strokes, the question appears to be not "will we be better than we were in 2017," but a combination of "will we be as good as we were in 2017" and "will our level of pass-rush competence be representative of our SB experience in 2018, if we appear in the 2018 SB." (The "if" in the second question is statistically more likely than not.)

Um... put me down for grab a guy if the value looks good, but don't panic about the pass rush or get green with envy about the team with the reigning sack king. It's not our thing.

(The same generally applies to QB pressure, IMHO. Granted, an untouched QB in a shoot-out that the Pats lost militates for improved pass rush to "win the last war." This perception is sharpened by a single play, the strip sack at (if memory serves) 2:21 left in the 4th quarter, the only sack in the game. But think a minute: Win that SB, and it's not a crying need. What prevents the strip sack? Protecting Brady, not sacking Foles. Either way, we're talking about back-filling to win a game in the past.)
 
I'd be shocked if we don't take at least one edge rusher and at least one linebacker tomorrow and maybe someone that can cover a rb as well. Would be nice to know going into training camp that guys like Richards and E. Roberts will probably not make the team

These are the defensive prospects with whom the Pats had pre-draft contact who are still on the board at the start of Day-3. These names represent 2/3rds of all the pre-draft contacts they had with defensive prospects.

ILB Christian Sam OV
ILB Jacob Martin OV

ILB Ben Nieman PDY
ILB Bo Bower PDY
ILB Jermaine Carter PDY
ILB Josey Jewell PDY
ILB Skai Moore PDY (BB)
ILB Jack Cichy PDY (Caserio)

Edge Ade Aruna PDY
Edge Kylie Fitts COM
Edge Duke Ejiofor OV, COM, WO
Edge Dorance Armstrong WO
Edge Josh Sweat OV

DL Chad Thomas PDY (BB)
DL Andrew Brown COM
DL Da'Shawn Hand COM
DL Jaylyn Holmes COM
DL Matt ****erson COM
DL Jullian Taylor OV
DL McKay Murphy PDY
DL Bilal Nichols WO
(* all interior rusher/3-4 DE types)

DT John Atkins PDY (BB)
(nose-tackle type)

CB Jalen Davis WO
CB Keion Crossen WO
CB Tremon Smith WO
CB Tyrin Holloway WO
CB Chris Seisay PDY
CB Nick Nelson PDY (Caserio)

SAF Damon Webb OV, WO
 
Lorenzo Carter, Sam Hubbard, multiple guys that would have been ideal. I get the the Titans swooped in on Landry, but we easily could have moved up a couple spots for him. We had plenty of capital to be aggressive.

Carter is a project as a pass rusher. Hubbard most likely not better than Rivers. Unless you wanted the team to throw the entire draft to get Chubb I am not sure what you expected from one of the weakest pass rushing drafts of the last decade.

People bring up Landry but he really was not a scheme fit and because of that not value that early.

This is also the point where we should bring up that the defensive scheme we have been running since the transition to Patricia (and maybe even longer) has devalued pure pass rushers that are hesitant or simply are unable to set the edge (think Chandler Jones).

The number of sacks in the last few seasons have shown that over an entire season we can manufacture pressure schematically when we want to. In fact, I would suggest you to watch some of the key third downs in the SB again and see how close Flowers and Harrison were to a sack/strip. If we only had a DT in the middle who could create space for them by taking on blocks they would have had a pretty good chance to hit home.

If you are a fan of the kind of aggressive defense that consistently attacks and has a lot of splash plays then maybe you should find a second team to follow because I am not sure you will ever see a BB coached team again that will go for that. Unless we tank the season post Brady and end up with very early picks that give us access to blue chippers.
 
1) That sentence just looks way too much like a prison memoir
2) Hey now, that Nick Foles is a Super Bowl winning quarterback!
3) We always want other QBs to at least not sip tea in the pocket, however, here are the Patriots' reg. season sack totals since 2001:
Statistics
(Italics - lost SB; bold - won SB)

2017...42
2016...34
2015...49
2014...40
2013...48
2012...37
2011...40
2010...36
2009...31
2008...31
2007...47
2006...44
2005...33
2004...45
2003...41

2002...34
2001...41

Clearly, for ease of analysis, I'm using regular season sacks as a proxy for whether we can pressure the QB. I invite anybody to compile the numbers for hurries, pressures, playoff stats instead of regular season, etc. - whatever you believe to be a more "true" proxy for whether we can competently rush the QB. If you can't be bothered to gather an alternative data set and explain why you'd use it, don't bother saying "yeah but that's a misleading data set."

I especially invite the same simple analysis as used here, but using opponent sacks as the key metric, to see whether protecting Brady is more or less important than generating pressure (once again, with the caveat that I know you can pressure without sacking.)

For purposes of this post, we'll continue using the best-known stat (sacks) and the largest data set (regular season) as our proxy for pass rush.

A few things are immediately apparent:

1) Our ability to sack the QB is range-bound.
Since 2001, our low is 31; our high is 49. We top out at "elite for a generally down sack year." We don't top out at "one for the ages."

For comparison, in 2017, Pittsburgh led the league with 56. We had 42. (Some years, the league leader gets 60+ sacks (e.g., 2013 Panthers); other years its in the 40s.)
2013 NFL Team Defense Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2) Within the Patriots range, 2017 was an up year.
We've had 5 seasons with more sacks than in 2017 (42). We've had 11 with fewer sacks than in 2017.

3) Using sacks as a proxy, pressure does not win championships for NE. Those 11 seasons with fewer sacks than 2017 included 4 out of 5 SB-winning seasons. In fact, 40-41 sacks of the opposing QB in the regular season seems most predictive of a SB win. *(2017 resulted in 42 sacks). This is nearly but not completely devoid of meaning; it does support that some other stat is the "key," to the extent that statistical breakdowns have predictive power. In the 2004 off-season, we were losing Ted Washington, with no idea of how well we could replace him. Granted, he clogged the interior so somebody else could do the fancy stuff. But it was an impact that had to be addressed. In 2004 we responded by drafting VW (And Benjamin Watson) in the first round, and the late Marquise Hill (DE) in the second. We also immediately plugged in Keith Traylor until we knew VW was VW, if I remember correctly. (Hill was something of an understudy/bargaining tactic vis a vis Richard Seymour). That investment yielded an actual increase in the proxy stat in 2004, but this dropped to a near-low for the series in 2005 (That said, T. Bruschi had his stroke, Ted Johnson left, Ty Law was released, etc., prior to 2005.)

4) However, the Patriots are the winningest team in the NFL during this time span.

If we accept sacks as a proxy for the importance of QB pressure in NE's defensive scheme in the Brady/Belichick era, we find a group that generally is able to get pressure in the top quarter of the league, sometimes among the top couple of teams in the league. Not bad, but a beatable group, certainly at the highest level.

When we evaluate an aspect of the game by the final game of the season, the SB, we "eye test" for something, "analyze" a "weakness," and "demand that it be shored up."

Or we might say, "Sure we can pile up the stats against weaker teams but when it comes down to it..." etc. Well, when it comes down to it, unexpected stars shine. No David Tyree, no loss in the 2008 SB. When it comes right down to it, outliers have an outsized influence on a very small data-set. Your superstar receiver might be handled efficiently, and your scrub might win the game; your rookie corner might make the game-winning interception. Etcetera. (BTW this principle illustrate further, as if we needed further proof, the greatness of TFB.)

All this begs the question of what you would fix before the present moment in time, and the related question of whether you'd be right to expend the resources in that way.

As regards injuries:
In any year, for any team, you can say "Yes, but ____ got injured in week ___." This explains fluctuations within a year, and drop-offs in the late season (in turn, something of a weak proxy for the post-season.)

However, these fluctuations cannot be predicted in advance, which is the key to planning for future results. For example, if you draft or otherwise acquire a whole passel of pass-rush talent in the off-season of 2018, there's no guarantee that they'll pan out, or that the best of them will be healthy by the post-season next year.

Aside: Getting guys back makes us think that we'll get back their pre-injury capabilities -- here, evaluation makes more knowledge available the closer you are to the team. I cannot evaluate whether we get 100% Hightower back, or 98% Hightower, or a guy named Hightower who used to be really good. I'm assuming we're getting back something like pre-injury Hightower, because I'm irrationally optimistic. (although for the sake of this proxy stat about pressure, Donta has never been personally responsible for more than the 6 sacks he tallied in 2014.)

Stats have only so much power. But I think in the case of pass-rushing, they paint a portrait of the highs/lows we can expect in the Pats' scheme combined with the personnel resources we commit to the pressure game. If McNabb had shown some urgency (and had some success while displaying urgency) in 2003, fans would have clamored to shore up the pass rush on the basis that it lost the SB. Instead, we clamored to shore up the pass rush in response to 2004 off-season departures and upcoming possible departures (Ted Washington, Richard Seymour.) As I recall, throughout the 3-out-of-4 run in the 2000ies, we clamored for mo' pass rush.

1-2 above characterizes the Pats' experience as a pass-rushing team over the seasons in the BB/Brady era. 3-4 above shows the effectiveness of the relative value the Pats place on the pass rush as evidenced in 1-2.

There's an argument to be made that a monstrous QB-pressure talent would be (/has been) muted in the Patriots' scheme, and that it is therefore a waste of upside to fixate on one outstanding pass-rusher; I'll leave that argument to more astute students of the game than myself. A total of less than 40 sacks "predicted" only 1 Super Bowl victory, in 2016. On the flip side, a group that compiles more than the pass-rush firepower of 2017 has proven unnecessary to win the SB, to the extent that our proxy stat has any predictive power.

Using only these broad strokes, the question appears to be not "will we be better than we were in 2017," but a combination of "will we be as good as we were in 2017" and "will our level of pass-rush competence be representative of our SB experience in 2018, if we appear in the 2018 SB." (The "if" in the second question is statistically more likely than not.)

Um... put me down for grab a guy if the value looks good, but don't panic about the pass rush or get green with envy about the team with the reigning sack king. It's not our thing.

(The same generally applies to QB pressure, IMHO. Granted, an untouched QB in a shoot-out that the Pats lost militates for improved pass rush to "win the last war." This perception is sharpened by a single play, the strip sack at (if memory serves) 2:21 left in the 4th quarter, the only sack in the game. But think a minute: Win that SB, and it's not a crying need. What prevents the strip sack? Protecting Brady, not sacking Foles. Either way, we're talking about back-filling to win a game in the past.)


However, the Patriots are the winningest team in the NFL during this time span

Winningest always sounds wrong. Most successful is the correct english.
 
I'd be shocked if we don't take at least one edge rusher and at least one linebacker tomorrow and maybe someone that can cover a rb as well. Would be nice to know going into training camp that guys like Richards and E. Roberts will probably not make the team

Thanks for the inside info Linda... I know your secret ashley.
 
However, the Patriots are the winningest team in the NFL during this time span

Winningest always sounds wrong. Most successful is the correct english.

Really? You're more pedantic than me?

Oh this should go well.

J/k; I agree, as far as prescriptive grammar goes. I'd never write "winningest" for a more formal outlet. In woolgathering about sports, I'm okay with it. When in Rome...
 
PS, I had to edit because of the typo, "woolgathering about sport," which, as we all know, is incorrect. It's sports.
 
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