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Packer board: Not as much AR GOAT talk these days...

Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by mosslost, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. mosslost

    mosslost Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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  2. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
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  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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  4. BelichicksBlackEye

    BelichicksBlackEye Practice Squad Player

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  5. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    He's a darn good quarterback, obviously the only one in TB12's class for some years now, but I think there's a lot of wisdom from Colin Cowherd (yes, I realize I just wrote that) on this one. The quarterback position is almost like a coaching position as well. The leadership, accountability, willingness to defend your teammates to the end, willingness to sacrifice your stats and personal accolades for the team, these things are real. Cowherd has been talking about this for years, about how the Patriots organization and team genuinely love Brady, while he continues to point out that Rodgers lacks a champion personality.

    Other factors that are more measurable: the cost for Brady + his skill weapons is significantly ($25M+) below the cost of Rodgers and his weapons, and you start to understand why Brady usually has a better rounded roster. He's playing with bargain skill players, just like the rest of the team, which looks for salary cap value, and he himself is a value too. Rodgers and his receivers are just paid market and not that big an asset with cap considerations, even if they were drafted by the Packers.

    Manish Mehta (who I actually really like, despite being a trolling Jets beat writer, because he's really talented and funny) recently wrote a piece about Brady and said Brady is unlike any player he has ever covered. He said there are public quotes that he prints, with the blessing of the players, and then there's the "off-record" stuff about these guys. He said that even "off the record" there is essentially universal praise and respect from the Jets players about Brady, which is different from any player in the NFL. The Jets players think he is not only an amazing football player, but they even respect him personally and praise him behind closed doors.

    With Rodgers, it seems like whenever there's a lot of adversity in Green Bay, a lot of rumblings start from old teammates, media members, etc., looking to start burying him for things behind what you see on the field. I imagine when he retires a lot of guys are not going to give him the same legacy endorsement as Brady. Even the fans begin to start turning on him pretty quickly, whereas Patriots fans may overreact, but I don't think I've heard anyone question Brady's leadership, commitment, and established place in NFL lore; people accuse Patriots fans being obnoxious about the Brady = GOAT stuff, but a lot of that is because the guy has been such a model person for so many years makes him the object of so much praise and hero worship.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  6. ALP

    ALP Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    this made me wonder: what are the chances that both Rodgers and Brady have pretty luckluster years for each, in the same year?

    maybe another external factor at play?
     
  7. bobbutts

    bobbutts On the Game Day Roster

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    Much less idiotic than most threads on other boards I see linked here.
     
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  8. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! Goodell sucks PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I mean, I guess this is a stones and glass houses thing given all the Brady cliff posts on this forum, but it's nice to know that our fanbase isn't alone in being terminally unable to appreciate having a great QB.

    Personally, as much as I think people overrate Rodgers a bit when times are good, I think piling on now is ill-advised in a similar way. And maybe it's a product of the same thing: people spent years believing that Mike McCarthy was stupid and Rodgers' weapons didn't matter because the offense was all him, which leads to the belief that as long as Rodgers is there they'll be fine because he's the only one doing anything anyway. But that was never true, there were always a bunch of other people making major contributions, and a lot of those people are either gone and unreplaced or aren't good anymore so of course the offense isn't performing as well.

    Just look at who Rodgers is throwing to. Davante Adams is good, but I wouldn't rank him as a top 15 NFL WR. And Jordy Nelson was clearly never the same after his ACL injury, so I don't fault the Packers for letting him go, but I do fault them for replacing him with Jimmy Graham who simply isn't very good anymore and got paid purely on the basis of a touchdown total that was inflated by the fact that the Seahawks couldn't run the ball at the goal line. Randall Cobb hasn't been good for 3 years, and even Geronimo Allison is on IR. So now Rodgers is left with an okay line that's played poorly lately, a pretty good albeit one-dimensional RB in Aaron Jones, an overrated TE who can't get any kind of reliably separation, a WR1 who's maybe the 20th best WR in the NFL, and his WRs 2 and 3 are rookies picked in the 5th and 6th round (Equanimeous St. Brown and Marquez Valdes-Scantling).

    Also, we don't know how much his knee injury is still affecting him, so it's hard to gauge how much his play has really dropped off vs just fighting through an injury. Granted, there's a separate conversation to be had about the fact that he's 35 and appears increasingly injury prone, and that his style of play probably won't age especially badly, but will not age as well as a pure pocket passer like Brady, Brees or even Rivers.

    I think Rodgers could transition into becoming a pure pocket passer and do fine, and it would serve his longevity and ability to stay healthy well if he did, but it would be at the cost of taking away one of the most deadly elements of his game, and the one thing he does that Brady never really had to begin with: the ability to scramble out of the pocket, create time and space, wait for coverage to break down, and then throw a rocket of a ball at any moment, regardless of whether his feet were set. It's maybe the single most unique part of his game, so I get why he's reluctant to give it up, but he may have to if he wants to play anything approaching full seasons at anything close to 100% health. We may already be at the point where the cost of continuing in this style outweighs the benefit, and we may soon be approaching the point where he can't physically do it anymore anyway.

    But all in all, I guess I just don't see why anyone would expect Rodgers to be better than he's been in this environment. Would Brady do a better job of winning games with a bunch of skill position JAGs like that? Yeah, almost definitely, but Brady's the GOAT at making due with JAGs, and even despite being the best at it his stats did take major hits when his skill position weapons got especially thin (2006, 2013, earlier this season when everyone was injured). In a weird way I think it's kind of a testament to how good Rodgers is that people are shocked and scandalized that he's basically human and can't elevate a bunch of late-round rookies into a high-octane offense. The only real fault I'd place on Rodgers' shoulders here is that he continues taking market-rate contracts rather than leaving money on the table to build a better team around him, but a) I don't really fault him for that because I never fault players for taking what they can get, and b) the Packers' FO is so **** that I'm not sure them having another $5-7M to light on fire would move the needle anyway. But sure, maybe they could have signed Donte Moncrief with that money instead of the Jaguars and maybe their WR depth chart would look less ****ty now, who knows.

    I have a higher opinion of McCarthy than most, it seems, so I wouldn't even blame him first, but I would probably blame him over Rodgers. First and foremost, though, I would blame the FO for putting together a genuinely ****ty team that happens to be carried by a great QB.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  9. sean10mm

    sean10mm On the Game Day Roster

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    Rodgers is the odd combination of someone who is always looking to make the big kill-shot deep pass, but doesn't take risks. The result is that he almost never throws picks, and doesn't even have many incompletions, but he takes a ton of sacks. He almost never loses games with mistakes, but he also almost never makes 4th quarter comebacks, especially against good teams - he's 1-38 when trailing by more than one point in the 4th quarter to a team who finishes the season with a winning record.

    There is a nuance here that most fans (and apparently Rodgers himself) have trouble with. The thing about acceptable risk is that it's situational. When you're down 2 scores in the 4th quarter, the only way to win is to take risks that would be stupid when you're tied in the 1st quarter. Sometimes that results in a turnover, and sometimes that results in a win - but if you're conservative in that situation, you lose by default. So the "risky" play is sometimes not the risky choice at all.
     
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  10. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Burn it all down! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Link?
     
  11. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The article title is misleading because it is the anomaly:

    Mehta: Braylon Edwards once called Tom Brady a 'system quarterback'

    Surfacing the greatness of Brady paved the way for Mehta to reveal how revered the Patriots quarterback by those on the Jets side of things over the years ... with one exception.

    "(Jets outside linebacker Brandon Copeland) called Tom Brady one of the founding fathers of the NFL, which made me laugh," Mehta said. "I’ve covered the league for 15 years and I have not seen an opposing player that has garnered more respect privately and publicly. Publicly players will say the right things most of the time, but even privately I have not found a player who has criticized Tom Brady over the last 15 years. Everyone has so much respect for him. Offensive players. Defensive players. Young players. Older players."
     
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  12. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    My theory is this: the NFL has become very dumbed down, where offensive philosophy no longer requires so much intellectual superiority. So, teams like the Patriots and Packers, who rely on such cerebral quarterbacks, are not seeing the same surge in numbers. Brady and Rodgers are hovering around their career QB ratings, whereas it seems everyone else on the planet is dominating. I am not buying into the clearly flawed idea that offenses have become smarter across the board...that just doesn't happen. More likely it's that simpler concepts are just incredibly difficult to defend due to the rules changes.
     
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  13. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member

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    I really have to ask:

    What is our collective fascination with Aaron Rodgers?

    Nov 6: A rather surprising stat

    Nov 7: "BB was awfully critical of Aaron Rodgers while talking to the Patriots defense"

    Nov 20: Rodgers hidden turnovers

    Nov 21: Amazing stat/fact regarding Aaron Rodgers

    Nov 26: Packer board: Not as much AR GOAT talk these days...



    We point our fingers at people like Lane Johnson for renting brain space on the Pats.

    Is this forum for some reason starting to do the same thing with Rodgers?

    I cannot understand why, if that is the case.
     
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  14. TheRainMaker

    TheRainMaker 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I think defenses have become dumber too. Way too many wide open guys in zones. In addition, QB's rarely look phased. Back in the day, if a back up came in, 99.9% of the time it was an automatic loss. Now they come in and look like all pros.

    NBA has dumbed down too and it's gotten to an all time low now. The norm now seems like every team is scoring over 100 points a game. Every player jacks up 3's and takes a lot of them. It's really tough to watch these days.
     
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  15. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan In the Starting Line-Up

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    I thought the knock on Rodgers was he cant stay in the pocket and read defenses ala TB, and would rather run around and wing it?
     
  16. Silver Blue&Red

    Silver Blue&Red PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Except for this Jack hole. Ex-Jet actually thought Brady was system QB.

    It's subtle, but still a bitter a55 wipe.

    But this makes it feel better. LOL
    Braylon Edwards Accuses Patriots of Running Up the Score
     
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  17. Wheelman

    Wheelman Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You lost me at that. WTF dude...:eek:
     
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  18. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    He's a troll and a homer for the most part, but he's a darn good writer. Really funny metaphors.
     
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  19. Wheelman

    Wheelman Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    May be true but I never read his stuff because of the former.
     
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  20. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! Goodell sucks PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wouldn't say the NBA is dumbed down now, if anything it might be the opposite. Virtually every trend in the game is driven by advanced analytics now, starting with the fact that statistically speaking long 2s are the most inefficient shot in the game, and maximum efficiency is at the rim or shooting open 3s. There is a bit more uniformity than in years past, but that's mostly in the fact that the optimal way to score is pretty much universally understood.
     
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