Our Offense - Decisions at OT and RB

[mgteich]

Whoever it is at WR or TE, they need to work with Brady right out of the box...

???

Wow

With that criterion, almost all of our WR's and TE's in the past have been failures. Almost no one out of college, and few from other teams is ready to work with Brady right out of the box. That's what made 2007 so great. Moss and Welker came in and were immediate stars for us.

 

[mgteich]

IMHO, Watson was worth a new contract, as was Graham and Hooman. The issue was value, as always.

Daniel graham was a blocker from day 1. You know that, I know that. Everybody knows that.

Ben Watson played in one game on his first season, didn' breakout as a pass catcher til season 3, and that was because it was one of the worst receiving corps the pats ever put on the field.

None of these guys warranted a new contract. And being a good blocker was part and parcel of what they brought to the team. Their job was filled by random dudes and both were wastes of first round draft picks.

Tired of going back and forth about blocking tight ends. The name of the game is versatility, and I'm sorry but a guy who blocks, makes ten receptions for 86 yards in this offense, with this quarterback is anything but.

Sure there is a role for blockers. But if that's all they are bringing to the table, then get them gone. Dwayne Allen is a nonfactor. Any tight end with any sort of passable blocking skill could do what he did, and would cost half as much.

You have seen what martysauras rex can do in this offense. You know he can take over the 1 tight end position if needed. And you honestly think Dwayne Allen is a better alternative? wt-h-e-double hockey sticks..... come on guy, you can't be serious, can you?

Reply if you want, but I'm done with this nonsense.

 

[IllegalContact]

???

Wow

With that criterion, almost all of our WR's and TE's in the past have been failures. Almost no one out of college, and few from other teams is ready to work with Brady right out of the box. That's what made 2007 so great. Moss and Welker came in and were immediate stars for us.

Cooks, Bennett, Hogan, Amendola .... they worked out of the gate

So what were you saying again?

Oh yeah..... Wow ...... duh

 

[maineman209]

IMHO, Watson was worth a new contract, as was Graham and Hooman. The issue was value, as always.

IIRC, Hooman was re-signed to a second contract. They traded him when the Saints offered Akiem Hicks in exchange. Would have been tough to turn that down.

Also, Watson signed with the Browns in 2010 for 3 years, $12M+, $6.5M guaranteed ... a fairly good-size contract for a TE at the time.

 

[mgteich]

I guess this shows how valuable Hooman was. I agree that Hicks was more needed by the team.

IIRC, Hooman was re-signed to a second contract. They traded him when the Saints offered Akiem Hicks in exchange. Would have been tough to turn that down.

Also, Watson signed with the Browns in 2010 for 3 years, $12M+, $6.5M guaranteed ... a fairly good-size contract for a TE at the time.

 

[maineman209]

I guess this shows how valuable Hooman was. I agree that Hicks was more needed by the team.

It also says something about Hooman's value as a "mere blocking TE" that the Saints were willing to part with Hicks for him.

 

[mgteich]

It also says something about Hooman's value as a "mere blocking TE" that the Saints were willing to part with Hicks for him.

GRONKOWSKI, ALLEN, HOLLISTER

It seems that the major objections here are that Allen is being paid $2-3M more than poster would pay (likely in comparison to Belichick).

And yes, I certainly expect Belichick to bring in TE's for camp and to compete with Hollister and Allen.

 

[maineman209]

Daniel graham was a blocker from day 1. You know that, I know that. Everybody knows that.

Ben Watson played in one game on his first season, didn' breakout as a pass catcher til season 3, and that was because it was one of the worst receiving corps the pats ever put on the field.

None of these guys warranted a new contract. And being a good blocker was part and parcel of what they brought to the team. Their job was filled by random dudes and both were wastes of first round draft picks.

Tired of going back and forth about blocking tight ends. The name of the game is versatility, and I'm sorry but a guy who blocks, makes ten receptions for 86 yards in this offense, with this quarterback is anything but.

Sure there is a role for blockers. But if that's all they are bringing to the table, then get them gone. Dwayne Allen is a nonfactor. Any tight end with any sort of passable blocking skill could do what he did, and would cost half as much.

You have seen what martysauras rex can do in this offense. You know he can take over the 1 tight end position if needed. And you honestly think Dwayne Allen is a better alternative? wt-h-e-double hockey sticks..... come on guy, you can't be serious, can you?

Reply if you want, but I'm done with this nonsense.

What's "nonsense" is you comparing Allen's role in the offense to that of Watson or Bennett.

Allen compares to Hooman. Watson and Bennett compare to Gronk.

 

[maineman209]

GRONKOWSKI, ALLEN, HOLLISTER

It seems that the major objections here are that Allen is being paid $2-3M more than poster would pay (likely in comparison to Belichick).

And yes, I certainly expect Belichick to bring in TE's for camp and to compete with Hollister and Allen.

It's also pretty clear that the poster doesn't understand how contracts, extensions and restructures work. Allen's salaries for 2018 and 2019 don't really exist - it's all "funny money" because none of it is guaranteed.

Restructuring Allen by extending his contract out to four years could easily reduce his 2018 and 2019 cap hits to about $2M-$2.5M per season while guaranteeing him $3M-$4M (something he doesn't have now). Like all extensions, it just pushes the "funny money" portion of the contract a couple years into the future. And that extension/restructuring can happen any time between now and cutdowns at the end of Camp (although there is some urgency due to the Pats current cap situation vis-a-vis Free Agency coming up shortly).

Bennett, OTOH, gets $2M guaranteed from the Pats regardless whether he ever plays in the NFL again or not - if he isn't cut before March 14th. That decision must be made sooner rather than later.

 

[Pape]

It is awfully arrogant of you to assume I don' understand how the cap works and how contract extension work.

As it stands, both Bennett and Allen can be cut without cap ramifications. If Bennett wants to keep playing, something I'm sure BB will find out soon enough, Bennett is the correct choice. Dwayne Allen is a wasted roster spot.

 

[captain stone]

It also says something about Hooman's value as a "mere blocking TE" that the Saints were willing to part with Hicks for him.

I think that it says less about Hooman's value as a "mere blocking TE" than it does about Hicks' relative under-performance with NO up to that time.
Salaries/cap ramifications aside, if anyone offered Hooman - or any "mere blocking TE" - for Hicks straight-up today, they would be laughed out of town.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we can create a major need at TE by refusing to pay Bennett's bonus and by cutting Allan.

It is awfully arrogant of you to assume I don' understand how the cap works and how contract extension work.

As it stands, both Bennett and Allen can be cut without cap ramifications. If Bennett wants to keep playing, something I'm sure BB will find out soon enough, Bennett is the correct choice. Dwayne Allen is a wasted roster spot.

 

[captain stone]

Yes, we can create a major need at TE by refusing to pay Bennett's bonus and by cutting Allen.

A major need at Backup TE, that is.

 

[mgteich]

A major need at Backup TE, that is.

yes
and that is a major issue in a team where the starter rarely plays 16 games

 

[supafly]

Shoot, I’ll just be happy if Gronkowski returns at this point. That situation is starting to freak me out a bit.

 

[maust]

A major need at Backup TE, that is.

yes
and that is a major issue in a team where the starter rarely plays 16 games

Neither Bennett or Allen makes me feel warm and fuzzy in terms of being Gronkowski's backup. Allen is a blocking TE. He is not an acceptable backup to Gronk and Bennett may not even play next year. He was making retirement noises and even if he decides to come back who knows what he may or may not have in the tank. The only way the Pats should consider bringing him back is on a restructured playing time based deal, which would have the added benefit of moving the bulk of his cap hit to 2019. The way he departed GB has probably made him toxic to many other teams. Combine that with his injury situation and an incentive based restructure seems like a real possibility. IF Bennett even wants to continue playing.

 

[mgteich]

No one can Gronk's backup. He's arguably the best TE of al time, excelling at both receiving and blocking.

The offensive game plan changes when Gronk is out.

Neither Bennett or Allen makes me feel warm and fuzzy in terms of being Gronkowski's backup. Allen is a blocking TE. He is not an acceptable backup to Gronk and Bennett may not even play next year. He was making retirement noises and even if he decides to come back who knows what he may or may not have in the tank. The only way the Pats should consider bringing him back is on a restructured playing time based deal, which would have the added benefit of moving the bulk of his cap hit to 2019. The way he departed GB has probably made him toxic to many other teams. Combine that with his injury situation and an incentive based restructure seems like a real possibility. IF Bennett even wants to continue playing.

 

[maineman209]

A major need at Backup TE, that is.

Still a need that must be filled.

And the next several guys who fill Gronk's spot on the roster as the "#1 TE" are all going to look like back-ups in comparison.

In any case, Bennett would be a "Gronk backup". Allen's role is different - much closer to Develin's role than to Bennett's.

 

[maineman209]

Neither Bennett or Allen makes me feel warm and fuzzy in terms of being Gronkowski's backup. Allen is a blocking TE. He is not an acceptable backup to Gronk and Bennett may not even play next year. He was making retirement noises and even if he decides to come back who knows what he may or may not have in the tank. The only way the Pats should consider bringing him back is on a restructured playing time based deal, which would have the added benefit of moving the bulk of his cap hit to 2019. The way he departed GB has probably made him toxic to many other teams. Combine that with his injury situation and an incentive based restructure seems like a real possibility. IF Bennett even wants to continue playing.

That's probably how I differ for the most part. I don't view Allen as a "Gronk backup". His role is different and wouldn't change at all if Gronk and Bennett were replaced by two new guys.

 

[maust]

That's probably how I differ for the most part. I don't view Allen as a "Gronk backup". His role is different and wouldn't change at all if Gronk and Bennett were replaced by two new guys.

It's where I differ as well, no discussion of a need to backup Gronk should include Allen. Allen's departure, if he goes, has a very different impact. .