OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[carmelo15]

I broke this down earlier, but let me do it again.

Evans and Miller are the deep speed on the outside. Godwin and AB are the chain movers. You can't rely on AB surviving a full season. In fact, for the rest of his NFL career, you won't be able to count on that. So you can't go into the season with AB being your only chain mover.

It is, in fact, as I noted in an earlier post, a pretty good comp for the 2007 WR group. The talents obviously aren't equal everywhere, and there's some variation of secondary strengths, but it holds up well, IMO.

Evans = Moss
Godwin = Welker
AB = Gaffney
Miller = Stallworth


Evans and Miller aren't going anywhere, so the team doesn't need the Middle-Deep OWR. Johnson isn't developed enough to know how well he could handle a full time, center of attention, chain mover. So the team needs Godwin, or some Godwin comp, if it's going to maximize Brady's strengths.

I think you need to put respect on Johnson’s name he really flashed good potential this year

Also even if you don’t belive in Johnson or AB staying on the field there’s no way to justify paying Godwin and losing Barrett or Davis. The offense with just Evans, Miller, and Johnson is good enough you can replace somewhat what Godwin does with cheaper players. He’ll go sign Hilton or Agholor for 9 millions less than Godwin and keep the defense together.

I also believe Miller will be more than a deep threat he looked good running those short routes vs NO in the first game. It just happens they used him on deep throws as he’s specialty because of how deep they are

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you need to put respect on Johnson’s name he really flashed good potential this year

Also even if you don’t belive in Johnson or AB staying on the field there’s no way to justify paying Godwin and losing Barrett or Davis. The offense with just Evans, Miller, and Johnson is good enough you can replace somewhat what Godwin does with cheaper players. He’ll go sign Hilton or Agholor for 9 millions less than Godwin and keep the defense together.

I also believe Miller will be more than a deep threat he looked good running those short routes vs NO in the first game. It just happens they used him on deep throws as he’s specialty because of how deep they are

I'm not bagging on Johnson. He's just a complete unknown, and you don't want a SB repeat relying on him having a breakout year.

Your Barrett argument makes absolutely no sense.

David (not Davis) is a separate issue from the WRs, and the team is going to have plenty of money to bring back both David and Godwin.


You're basically trying to argue that the team should let the most important WR walk, because some other guys might be able to come in and do a decent enough job to minimize the loss. That's not the position the Bucs are in, on offense. They're in the position of maximizing the now.

As I've said before, if you can tell me that Brady has seen Edleman, and that Edelman is going to be back as a high level chain mover and will definitely be on the Bucs, then I can be talked into the idea of deliberately letting Godwin walk. But, absent that, it makes no sense for the Bucs to decide not to bring Godwin back, at least without having something like the theoretical OBJ trade already in place. Even that's not optimal.

 

[Deus Irae]

 

[Deus Irae]

This is well worth noting, IMO.

 

[Deus Irae]

 

[skinnydog]

I'm not bagging on Johnson. He's just a complete unknown, and you don't want a SB repeat relying on him having a breakout year.

Your Barrett argument makes absolutely no sense.

David (not Davis) is a separate issue from the WRs, and the team is going to have plenty of money to bring back both David and Godwin.


You're basically trying to argue that the team should let the most important WR walk, because some other guys might be able to come in and do a decent enough job to minimize the loss. That's not the position the Bucs are in, on offense. They're in the position of maximizing the now.

As I've said before, if you can tell me that Brady has seen Edleman, and that Edelman is going to be back as a high level chain mover and will definitely be on the Bucs, then I can be talked into the idea of deliberately letting Godwin walk. But, absent that, it makes no sense for the Bucs to decide not to bring Godwin back, at least without having something like the theoretical OBJ trade already in place. Even that's not optimal.

I expect the Bucs would tag Godwin before letting him go. We all saw the drops in the playoffs, but his hands have been as good as any receiver in the league over his career. And not only can he move the chains, but he gat get deep as well.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I broke this down earlier, but let me do it again.

Evans and Miller are the deep speed on the outside. Godwin and AB are the chain movers. You can't rely on AB surviving a full season. In fact, for the rest of his NFL career, you won't be able to count on that. So you can't go into the season with AB being your only chain mover.

It is, in fact, as I noted in an earlier post, a pretty good comp for the 2007 WR group. The talents obviously aren't equal everywhere, and there's some variation of secondary strengths, but it holds up well, IMO.

Evans = Moss
Godwin = Welker
AB = Gaffney
Miller = Stallworth


Evans and Miller aren't going anywhere, so the team doesn't need the Middle-Deep OWR. Johnson isn't developed enough to know how well he could handle a full time, center of attention, chain mover. So the team needs Godwin, or some Godwin comp, if it's going to maximize Brady's strengths.

I get what you’re saying about Godwin as the high volume guy who moves the chains. That may be his primary role, but in reality there haven’t been any receivers in New England with his exact skill set. He’s just quick enough to be a poor man’s Edelman on the inside and just big/fast enough to be a poor man’s (prime) Gordon on the outside. So not elite quickness and not elite burst but versatile to do either one of those things at a high level.

He’s what the Patriots badly wanted Sanu to be, or you might say Sanu was Godwin Lite as his peak.

If he really were just a chain moving guy like Welker, I’s say $15M+ is totally insane. He’s also a big play guy, though, who will burn you deep and win jump balls. That’s where being 6’1” comes in handy and why Welker and Edelman couldn’t get #1 receiver money.

 

[Deus Irae]

I expect the Bucs would tag Godwin before letting him go. We all saw the drops in the playoffs, but his hands have been as good as any receiver in the league over his career. And not only can he move the chains, but he gat get deep as well.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's 100%, but both of the main Bucs Sportswriters are all but certain he'll be back, and on the tag, if needed.

 

[Deus Irae]

I get what you’re saying about Godwin as the high volume guy who moves the chains. That may be his primary role, but in reality there haven’t been any receivers in New England with his exact skill set. He’s just quick enough to be a poor man’s Edelman on the inside and just big/fast enough to be a poor man’s (prime) Gordon on the outside. So not elite quickness and not elite burst but versatile to do either one of those things at a high level.

He’s what the Patriots badly wanted Sanu to be, or you might say Sanu was Godwin Lite as his peak.

If he really were just a chain moving guy like Welker, I’s say $15M+ is totally insane. He’s also a big play guy, though, who will burn you deep and win jump balls. That’s where being 6’1” comes in handy and why Welker and Edelman couldn’t get #1 receiver money.

I think we give an unfair financial take on SlotWRs, just as we've given unfair financial takes on TEs. But that gets us beyond the bounds of this thread.


As for your comps, I'm not sure about the Gordon part, but it's worth thinking on. Inside, I think he loses to both Welker and Edelman on quicks and cuts, but gains on length/height/target radius. But I like the overall pairing.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I look at the FA priorities less about who is “the best player” and more about which loss would be the most devastating because the skill set isn’t as replaceable. That’s why I don’t see Godwin as a do-or-die signing. But it looks like Brady won’t let him walk anyway.

David is the most critical signing. The Bucs play a lot of 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 defenses, which is only possible because David and White are uniquely fast and able to cover so much ground. I don’t think there’s a free agent on the market who would make that loss any less damaging.

Suh is along those lines. An elite interior d-lineman besides Vea gives them so much more scheme flexibility. There are free agents who could do this job, but I doubt there will be better value.

If they lost Suh, Vea, David, or White, they’d probably need to play a standard 4-3 base and their secondary struggles without the numbers in their favor.

If they downgraded Barrett to a some B- pass rusher, they’ll still be in the same scheme, creating pressures, though maybe getting a few less sacks. There are like 8 free agent pass rushers who provide at least 75% of what he brings and all doing the same universal job of rushing the QB.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think we give an unfair financial take on SlotWRs, just as we've given unfair financial takes on TEs. But that gets us beyond the bounds of this thread.


As for your comps, I'm not sure about the Gordon part, but it's worth thinking on. Inside, I think he loses to both Welker and Edelman on quicks and cuts, but gains on length/height/target radius. But I like the overall pairing.

Sure...I mean, my own take on Welker/Edelman’s value, or what the market generally pays? I’m always surprised that the quicker, undersized dudes get such small contracts compared to the outside WRs.

Yeah..Gordon is just the closest I could think of. I just mean Godwin is a good outside receiver who is long and physical...and he’ll make you pay if you don’t respect his deep ball ability. He has a big catch radius and can really jump too.

 

[Kargetina]

LeSean McCoy details Tom Brady's 'Terminator' intangibles that led Bucs to Super Bowl

Brady was holding in-depth meetings and forced even coaches to bring their A-game.

www.masslive.com

A great interview with Shady McCoy. Brady is a God to his teammates. Just rewatched the Falcons SB Mic’d Up and both the Falcons and Patriots players were “it’s Tom Brady, its never over as long as he has a say in it.” Both teams knew it’s game over if it gets to overtime because it’s Tom Brady.

You can’t overstate what this type of a leader brings to a team. The confidence of the entire team goes beyond what a normal team has. Everyone works harder, everyone brings their A game, everyone believes he’s a part of the best team in the league just because Tom Brady is leading it.

I wrote a couple of weeks before the SB that if Brady manages to win this year by beating Brees, Rodgers and Mahomes he would become a myth, and right now we’re at that stage. The crazy thing is, these type of myths are usually created 20-30 years down the line by being embellished...this guy is working towards his 8th SB as we speak.

 

[amfootball]

LeSean McCoy details Tom Brady's 'Terminator' intangibles that led Bucs to Super Bowl

Brady was holding in-depth meetings and forced even coaches to bring their A-game.

www.masslive.com

A great interview with Shady McCoy. Brady is a God to his teammates. Just rewatched the Falcons SB Mic’d Up and both the Falcons and Patriots players were “it’s Tom Brady, its never over as long as he has a say in it.” Both teams knew it’s game over if it gets to overtime because it’s Tom Brady.

You can’t overstate what this type of a leader brings to a team. The confidence of the entire team goes beyond what a normal team has. Everyone works harder, everyone brings their A game, everyone believes he’s a part of the best team in the league just because Tom Brady is leading it.

I wrote a couple of weeks before the SB that if Brady manages to win this year by beating Brees, Rodgers and Mahomes he would become a myth, and right now we’re at that stage. The crazy thing is, these type of myths are usually created 20-30 years down the line by being embellished...this guy is working towards his 8th SB as we speak.

That was a heck of an interview from Shady.

 

[skinnydog]

That was a heck of an interview from Shady.

Yeah, that really was. Especially for a guy that was watching Brady from the outside for so many rears, then when he plays with Brady everything gets confirmed.

 

[carmelo15]

I look at the FA priorities less about who is “the best player” and more about which loss would be the most devastating because the skill set isn’t as replaceable. That’s why I don’t see Godwin as a do-or-die signing. But it looks like Brady won’t let him walk anyway.

David is the most critical signing. The Bucs play a lot of 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 defenses, which is only possible because David and White are uniquely fast and able to cover so much ground. I don’t think there’s a free agent on the market who would make that loss any less damaging.

Suh is along those lines. An elite interior d-lineman besides Vea gives them so much more scheme flexibility. There are free agents who could do this job, but I doubt there will be better value.

If they lost Suh, Vea, David, or White, they’d probably need to play a standard 4-3 base and their secondary struggles without the numbers in their favor.

If they downgraded Barrett to a some B- pass rusher, they’ll still be in the same scheme, creating pressures, though maybe getting a few less sacks. There are like 8 free agent pass rushers who provide at least 75% of what he brings and all doing the same universal job of rushing the QB.

This is what I’m trying to say as well Godwin is very good but losing Barret hurt too much. You bring back Barrett/Suh/David and you have a top 5 defense to go with a very good offense

I'm not bagging on Johnson. He's just a complete unknown, and you don't want a SB repeat relying on him having a breakout year.

Your Barrett argument makes absolutely no sense.

David (not Davis) is a separate issue from the WRs, and the team is going to have plenty of money to bring back both David and Godwin.


You're basically trying to argue that the team should let the most important WR walk, because some other guys might be able to come in and do a decent enough job to minimize the loss. That's not the position the Bucs are in, on offense. They're in the position of maximizing the now.

As I've said before, if you can tell me that Brady has seen Edleman, and that Edelman is going to be back as a high level chain mover and will definitely be on the Bucs, then I can be talked into the idea of deliberately letting Godwin walk. But, absent that, it makes no sense for the Bucs to decide not to bring Godwin back, at least without having something like the theoretical OBJ trade already in place. Even that's not optimal.

Do you think without Godwin there not a top 10 offense? This fantasy idea that there throwing around that they can resign everyone isn’t realistic

 

[skinnydog]

This is what I’m trying to say as well Godwin is very good but losing Barret hurt too much. You bring back Barrett/Suh/David and you have a top 5 defense to go with a very good offense




Do you think without Godwin there not a top 10 offense? This fantasy idea that there throwing around that they can resign everyone isn’t realistic

The question you have to answer about Barret is whether he really is the 19.5 sack player he was in 2019. He was not close to that in Denver. He was very good last year, but was so much better when Vita Vea was on the field. That Tampa defense is really good with Vea in the middle. Vea seems to be the sort of player who makes the players next to him better.

 

[Guts]

Greatest flex of all time

 

[Deus Irae]

This is what I’m trying to say as well Godwin is very good but losing Barret hurt too much. You bring back Barrett/Suh/David and you have a top 5 defense to go with a very good offense




Do you think without Godwin there not a top 10 offense? This fantasy idea that there throwing around that they can resign everyone isn’t realistic

I think you don't seem to know how much cap space that team can create. I also think that it's going to be easier to grab an edge rusher this year than to grab a Godwin level talent. And I also don't understand what the hell you're thinking with the attempt to lessen that Bucs offense. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

I don't know why so much of this has to be repeated, but here goes:

• Tampa can extend Brady, lowering his cap hit.
• Tampa can extend Jensen, lowering his cap hit.
• Tampa can extend Smith, lowering his cap hit.
• Tampa can extend JPP, lowering his cap hit.
• Tampa could cut Gholston with no cap loss, freeing up $5.5m.
• Tampa's deals with Godwin/David/Barrett/whoever can be backloaded enough to lessen the 2021 hit.
• Tampa could decide not to bring back one or the other of Howard/Brate, freeing up between $6m and $6.5m

And the above is just adjustments with Brady and clean contracts.

• Marpet is in mid-deal, but he could be extended for a 2021 cap savings.
• Evans is in mid-deal, but he's young enough to be worth extending/restructuring for a 2021 cap savings, and he's already said he'd do it.
• Other moves could be made to free up smaller amounts, though most would not be clean like those above.

Tampa can free up a ****load of cash/cap. All it would have to do would be to behave as so many other teams (including the Patriots) do, which is to borrow from the future in order to fortify the now. That's something Tampa has not historically done, so there's plenty of room to do it now.

I don't know why this is something that some here keep choosing to ignore.

 

[Zarozzor]

I definitely think they get Godwin back.

 

[Zarozzor]

All this stuff coming out after the game makes me so happy. Just like that McCoy article. I'll always love the Patriots, but part me of is glad that Brady went to another team and dominated.

Now I see people all over the internet changing their tune on Brady after all these years of hating. Even a few of my friends who have disliked him for years and years were texting me after the Super Bowl in complete awe. Some even rooting for him these entire playoffs just because they're amazed he's doing what he is at his age, and they want to say they experienced it live.