OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[JayNM]

Bill the HC? Maybe...

But Bill the GM? Whatever the opposite of Phenomenal is, that's him.

I have to disagree here Cap...

BB the GM does stuff with cap and with team management that only a guy with a deep understanding of expected returns can do. Not only financially, but about production on the field
For example the whole trade one year earlier than one later? This is so entrenched in Finances, Bargaining (microeconomics) its crazy.

He, as GM, almost inspired me to make my thesis about him. Too bad I was in Brazil for that

What he does is absolutely unprecedented. It what makes him, in my opinion, in the discussion for the Goat GM AS WELL.

He is not a clear cut candidate for a reason that I think we can agree on: I do think he's about above average in Drafting. Great at OL, DBs, very bad at WR, but overall, more hits than the average.

 

[JayNM]

The lament about the Steelers and their WR drafting is just a weird one to me. In the past decade the Patriots outscored Pittsburg by 918 points. Nearly 6 points a game and obviously had much better postseason success. And most would concede that the Steelers also had the advantage on the OL and at RB. They did last outscore the Pats in a season in 2005 and that was by 10 points so that year should certainly be explored in detail. Drafting is only one component of talent acquisition and the Pats chose to pick up cheaper options like Hogan, Lafell, Amendola etc.. vs spending a lot of draft capital. There is no question that they are currently short on WR & TE talent and questioning the recent approach to filling those spots makes sense but going back to early parts of the dynasty is peculiar at best.

To me its weird that you are taking a comparison Apples to Oranges (Drafting Wr by the Steelers or by the Pats) and making it about the trees.

Of course the the Pats have been better than the Steelers. Of course that they are better at getting and developing WR than us

What is so weird about it? I really dont get it.... WR is one of the most exciting positions in the NFL, having draft-grown playmaker would be sweet

 

[PatsWSB47]

86, 87 in February, but I think you can look that up. What else do you want to know classless?

Act it

 

[amfootball]

I have to disagree here Cap...

BB the GM does stuff with cap and with team management that only a guy with a deep understanding of expected returns can do. Not only financially, but about production on the field
For example the whole trade one year earlier than one later? This is so entrenched in Finances, Bargaining (microeconomics) its crazy.

He, as GM, almost inspired me to make my thesis about him. Too bad I was in Brazil for that

What he does is absolutely unprecedented. It what makes him, in my opinion, in the discussion for the Goat GM AS WELL.

He is not a clear cut candidate for a reason that I think we can agree on: I do think he's about above average in Drafting. Great at OL, DBs, very bad at WR, but overall, more hits than the average.

He had that flexibility to move on from players and be "cap flexible" because he had the GOAT covering up a ton and making lemonade out of lemons time and time again.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Article is about the Bucs being way ahead of the second best team (Baltimore) for highest DVOA.

Week 6 DVOA Ratings

Tampa Bay takes a huge lead in DVOA with a huge win over Green Bay, the biggest single game of the season. And on the other side of the ledger, the Jets are far behind the rest of the league.

www.footballoutsiders.com

 

[sb1]

Tom Brady Memorabilia to Be Sold on Fanatics Network

The quarterback's full assortment of autographs and collectibles will be offered for sale on the Fanatics site.

wwd.com

https://www.fanatics.com/nfl/tom-brady-collectibles-and-memorabilia/o-1394+a-53023060+d-86775548+fa-2+z-9-1905513818

Some of those alternate helmets like the black one with the red Pats logo look cool. The prices though...

 

[Jangles]

I hope Brady wins MVP and SB MVP.

I hope this too

however he’ll need to throw about 30 TDs without an interception from here out to get in that conversation

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I have to disagree here Cap...

BB the GM does stuff with cap and with team management that only a guy with a deep understanding of expected returns can do. Not only financially, but about production on the field
For example the whole trade one year earlier than one later? This is so entrenched in Finances, Bargaining (microeconomics) its crazy.

He, as GM, almost inspired me to make my thesis about him. Too bad I was in Brazil for that

What he does is absolutely unprecedented. It what makes him, in my opinion, in the discussion for the Goat GM AS WELL.

He is not a clear cut candidate for a reason that I think we can agree on: I do think he's about above average in Drafting. Great at OL, DBs, very bad at WR, but overall, more hits than the average.

He's a great GM but has to rely on his staff's evaluations. For example if his OC says a WR or TE is a first round talent he has to weight that factor in with everything else, especially if it sounds like an undervalued asset. Problem is if he keeps listening to an OC who has never drafted or developed any good WR or TE over 15 years. I guess at some point it's on Belichick to finally realize his OC can't scout for sh-t.

.

 

[XLIX]

We're screwed....

Study Shows That Major Sports Teams Are Extremely Successful When Tom Brady Resides In Their City

If Tom Brady is residing in your city, there’s a good chance one or more of your cities major sports teams are extremely successful. A recent study highlighted that from 1979 to present day, whichever city Tom Brady resided in had one or more of the city’s sports team either in or win the...

dailysnark.com

 

[upstater1]

ok cool. So Branch and Edelman. Still like 2 against 8 pro bowl Steelers wideouts. Why are you so insistent the Pats draft receivers as well as the Steelers when nobody in the entire world thinks so ?

.

First, name the 8 Steelers. Just so we're clear, the Steelers have had 3 Pro Bowlers over the last 20 years: Antonio Brown, Mike Wallace (1 year, 2011) and Smith-Schuster (2018).

I will give you though that much better receivers than Wallace and Ju-Ju, like Emmanuel Sanders, didn't make the Pro Bowl, so we can count all of them as top WRs in the league even if they didn't make it.

So let's look at production instead: Deion Branch counts as a bonafide WR in the league not only because he won Super Bowl MVP honors, but his production: 518 catches.

Compare to Wallace (538), Holmes (389), Sanders (627). Branch is in the same category as these 3 WRs, though Holmes is barely in that category. I count 5 Steelers at the level of Branch and Edelman or higher (in the case of AB), and those are AB, Wallace, Santonio, Sanders, Ju-Ju. Diontae and Washington are at the level of a Givens.

Second, who said the Patriots draft as many good WRS as the Steelers?

My point was the exact opposite of that.

Quite frankly, you're the second person in this thread that has misrepresented what I said. My whole point is that the Patriots do NOT expend as many resources in drafting WRs, especially premium resources (first 3 or 4 rounds) as the Steelers, which is why we don't land as many good ones. And that IF the Patriots spent 2x as many resources as they did, they'd likely have found about 4 more good WRs in the last 20 years. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[203Pat]

Please tell me the "Steelers don't draft receivers better than we do" argument is happening again. Anyone who has watched the last two decades and believes that Edelman (project), Givens (somewhat of a project), and Branch is a better group than Buress, Randle El, Santonio Holmes, Wallace, Sanders, Brown, Bryant, Schuster, and now Claypool is insane.

 

[amfootball]

 

[Doctor DDS]

Of course the Steelers have drafted better WR than the Pats over the past 20 years. They have also invested more draft capital and salary cap space on it than the Pats. The real question is why does this particular method of talent acquisition matter so much to certain people? If we were the Jets and have stunk passing the ball in forever then it makes all sorts of sense but when "our team" has been so much more productive passing, scoring and winning than the Steelers during the time frames being talked about it seems like an odd focus area to many of us. We'd all love the Pats to nail every single draft pick but that is just not realistic. I certainly want them to improve the TE and WR play going forward but I do not care if it is through the draft, FA or a trade.

 

[203Pat]

Of course the Steelers have drafted better WR than the Pats over the past 20 years. They have also invested more draft capital and salary cap space on it than the Pats. The real question is why does this particular method of talent acquisition matter so much to certain people? If we were the Jets and have stunk passing the ball in forever then it makes all sorts of sense but when "our team" has been so much more productive passing, scoring and winning than the Steelers during the time frames being talked about it seems like an odd focus area to many of us. We'd all love the Pats to nail every single draft pick but that is just not realistic. I certainly want them to improve the TE and WR play going forward but I do not care if it is through the draft, FA or a trade.

They never really invested any big money deals in any of those guys other than Brown but Brown was the best receiver in the league.

Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick.
Juju was a second.
Mike Wallace was a third.
Emmanuel Sanders was a third.
Randle El was a second.
10
The only receivers they invested a first round pick in (since 2000) are Santonio Holmes and Plaxico who both ended up being good players. They have had a few busts in the first 3 rounds, Limas Sweed, Sammie Coats and a few solid but not stars, Martavious Bryant and Markus Wheaton but overall I’d take that crop over the receivers we drafted.

Bill has taken 6 receivers in the first 3 rounds with the Patriots. All but Deion Branch were busts.

In 2016 we signed Hogan to a 3 yr/12 mill. Michael Thomas went in the second round in the ballpark of where we normally pick and he signed for 4 yr/5.1 mill.
Hypothetically if Bill decided he wanted to invest in a first round WR Josh Doctson was drafted a few spots higher than we normally pick and he signed for 4 yrs/10 million.

In 2014 Brandon Lafell signed for 3 yr/9 mill. That same draft Davante Adams went in the second round and signed a 4 yr/3.9 mill deal.

In 2013 Danny Amendola signed for 5 yrs/28.5 mill. He could’ve drafted a receiver with every pick in the draft and not spent that much.
When you decide to fill your receiver core with free agents you usually spend more and get shorter contracts.

If we just drafted the position better we would spend less and have better players.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Agree - if you can cherry pick the specific players that turned out the best then yes - BB could have done better stocking the WR position. Maybe he should do that with all positions going forward. Getting a pro bowler in every round of the draft would be a great idea.

 

[Bill Lee]

Indeed, consider the overall record and it's no comparison.

Seems like we have some keen fantasy players on this thread.

Has nothing to do with any of that.

This isn't the NFL, we root for teams, not for players, unless we're fantasy heads.

The overall record that matters to me is:

Vs:

Seems like one needs to do more than have good WRs to win championships.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Need Brady, Gronk and TB to do the Pats a favor and take down LV this week. Has the feel of a high scoring game to me.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This isn't the NFL, we root for teams, not for players, unless we're fantasy heads.

The overall record that matters to me is:
View attachment 29024
Vs:
View attachment 29025
Seems like one needs to do more than have good WRs to win championships.

There's another part of this too, which is, when it comes to draft value and also the value after rookie contract, is this a position that's overvalued by the market?

And this is the main reason why I think the Patriots don't spend a lot of high picks on WRs. We see that they tend to assign WR value much lower than other teams, whereas they will pay market value (or close to market) for elite defensive backs (Gilmore, Revis, McCourty, Talib offer), linemen/ linebackers who excel against the run and in the red zone (Mayo, Hightower, Wilfork, Seymour), and offensive linemen (Mason, Mankins, Thuney, Cannon, Light, Solder offer). Not surprisingly, you see that a lot of their early round draft picks skew towards these positions as well.

This isn't a trend but a very clear organizational belief system, tied to Belichick's supply and demand value scouting, which I think is his greatest asset as a football mind. It is clear that certain positions are overvalued and others are undervalued. So if, for example, you "hit" on a first round wide receiver draft prospect, overall that won't make your team as good as a "hit" on a first round cornerback, guard, or linebacker (provided the wide receiver wasn't rated extremely high relative to draft position, like supposedly N'Keal Harry was.)

Belichick even stated this, as it was picked up in one of those books (I think a Michael Holley one) when he questioned why Atlanta would move up and spend so much draft capital to draft Julio Jones when they could just trade back and grab Michael Floyd later in the round. Now, he was obviously wrong on that one, but that principle has guided him over the years.

You'll hear the Patriots in the bidding for the best defensive backs, defensive tackles, etc. quite often, willing to pay quite a bit, but when is the last time they've actually tried to lure a big time free agent wide receiver? Never? They know they're overpaying and that the deal makes no sense considering the other available players relative to their asking prices. They look for bargains like Brandon LaFell and Chris Hogan, who will give you 75% of what Julio Jones brings for a fraction of the cost. Basically every WR who has played in New England has played for well below market or had to walk to make market: Edelman, Welker, Cooks, Branch, Brown. Moss nearly left in 2008 free agency. Amendola might be the only exception. But again, it isn't because the Patriots are "cheap" because they'll break the bank for the Gilmores and Wilforks; it's that this position is overvalued, which applies to the draft, too.

But let me clarify: having good wide receivers is absolutely not overvalued! That is why seems to get muddled when people talk about how the Patriots don't need good receivers (!). That is absolutely not it. They definitely need great players everywhere to succeed. The main thing here is that the high-cost (draft capital and free agency) wide receivers are overvalued relative to the mid-cost and low-cost ones.

But I have to tell you, in conclusion, that this belief has certainly been challenged in recent years.

 

[JayNM]

He had that flexibility to move on from players and be "cap flexible" because he had the GOAT covering up a ton and making lemonade out of lemons time and time again.

Thats a simplistic view of it all, to me

You cant really pinpoint a single factor to credit all the success we've had.

Other GOATs, in more flexible eras, couldnt do what BB has done.

 

[amfootball]

Thats a simplistic view of it all, to me

You cant really pinpoint a single factor to credit all the success we've had.

Other GOATs, in more flexible eras, couldnt do what BB has done.

But you really can when you factor in how much the QB position in this era effects wins. There is no position in all of sports that takes a mediocre or even a crap team and makes them a contender. Then you add in Brady who is the most efficient, clutch player of all time who elevated talent around him and that pretty much throws a pretty complete cover over GM moves and allowed Bill take as much risk as he wanted on top of Brady taking below market deals which also gave Bill leverage when it came to contract neg. with his players.

And other GMs did not have a QB who had a prime as long as Brady who has making taking care of his body a religion.