OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Tony2046]

First, "detractors" includes people in the national media, not just Patsfans.com or this thread.

Secondly, I won't dignify that question, though you included the disclaimer. No disrespect intended. Just don't feel I have anything to prove.

You definitely don't have anything to prove.

 

[Tony2046]

You won't dignify the question? I didn't ask you who your mom lost her virginity to, I asked you about which NFL team you root for. C'mon - answer the question. I don't mean it as a "gotcha", I'm trying to better understand where your head is at.

Do you find yourself rooting for the Patriots at all anymore? Would you identify as a Bucs' fan at this point?

Go back and read the last umpteen years of his posts and then get back to me. Ridiculous accusation.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Bedard just wrote a total trash article. It's not Belichick who deserves dissing. No Brady or Gronk now has been greatly exposing Josh McDaniels.

 

[Triumph]

Brady just takes what the defense gives him. He is fine on taking long 12 play drives to score.

Same old Brady. Cool, calm and collected. If the play isnt there not to panic. Gronk was involved today and next game it will be someone else. I see Brady implementing more of the plays that he likes into the Bucs offense.

 

[catent]

Go back and read the last umpteen years of his posts and then get back to me. Ridiculous accusation.

Tony, you're a reasonable person.

Can you please indicate where I accused PB12 of not being a Pats' fan? I asked him a question, quite literally meaning I am trying to better understand his position.

 

[upstater1]

who is the 4th? im counting branch & edelman....maybe givens but no not really. and branch is going back to 2002, thats 2/12 using your model

if you look at 2010 - 2019 (last decade) we are 0/9 in draft. if you add edelman to that, still at 10%

steelers 2010-2019 - 5 *HITS* out of 14 ...35% success rate. HIT defined as at least one 1000yd+ season

our best pick WR in terms of production in that period was a total of 698 total career yards. best year was 519 .. pitts had 7/13 do better than the 698

we ARE NOT any where near the same success rate

Mitchell as a rookie had a fantastic Super Bowl. He would've given us Givens (pardon the pun) production at least.

Givens was a 50-60 catch guy in New England before he went away, averaged 800 yards in his last 2 full years here, and he was a 1st down machine.

Branch was a Super Bowl MVP who was fantastic for us, made a Pro Bowl.

Who are the Steelers you're counting as your 7/13?

 

[upstater1]

You dont want include Harry because it makes your comment more ridiculous.

The Steelers success at drafting WRs blows the Patriots to kingdom come. Its not even close.

Since 2009, Pittsburgh has drafted 4 Elite Stud WRs. NE has drafted ZERO. Edelman was a QB at Kent State and not a pure WR. NE developed Edelman over time. This discussion is about drafted WRs that step in to the role day 1.

Pittsburgh
2009 Mike Wallace best season 1257 yards and 10 TDs
2010 Emanuel Sanders best season 1400 yards and 9 TDs
Antonio Brown best season 1600 yards and 13 TDs
2017 Ju Ju Smith best season 1400 yards and 7 TDs

None of the NE WRs drafted since 2009 come within 100 miles of these numbers
2009 Tate
2010 Price
2012 Ebert
2013 Dobson, Boyce
2014 Gallon
2016 Mitchell, Lucien
2018 Berrios
2019 Harry

This is hilarious.

you did a lot of work for NOTHING. Because you didn't read the main point. The Steelers expend a lot of draft resources on receivers!! Holy cow, how did you miss this?

I didn't say the Patriots are just as successful as the Steelers with receivers? I said they had the same hit rate!!!

How did you miss this?

 

[upstater1]

What do you classify as a 'hit' in hit rate though? The Steelers regularly develop pro bowl wide receivers. Like a factory of replacing with elite WRs every couple years. Are you counting a 'hit' meaning the Pats kept a guy on the team ?

.

Edelman, Branch, Givens, and I included Mitchell's rookie season.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Edelman, Branch, Givens, and I included Mitchell's rookie season.

I see. Sorry to restate my question, I meant I'm assuming you're referring to how many of these drafted stayed on the team ? I'm saying for the Steelers, when they hit on a guy it ends up being multiple all pro elite all star WRs. So even if the 'hit rate' is similar, the magnitude of talent is not even close , the Steelers draft much better receivers ?

.

 

[Boomer B]

Mitchell as a rookie had a fantastic Super Bowl. He would've given us Givens (pardon the pun) production at least.

Givens was a 50-60 catch guy in New England before he went away, averaged 800 yards in his last 2 full years here, and he was a 1st down machine.

Branch was a Super Bowl MVP who was fantastic for us, made a Pro Bowl.

Who are the Steelers you're counting as your 7/13?

Mitchell had multiple knee surgeries in high school, college, and in the NFL. Drafting him was a big risk as it wasn’t likely he’d have a long career due to his knee issues. I don’t think you can list him as a successful draft pick when we knew about his issues and he only lasted a year.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Bedard just wrote a total trash article. It's not Belichick who deserves dissing. No Brady or Gronk now has been greatly exposing Josh McDaniels.

I don’t see how they’ve been “exposing him” considering both of their production was better in New England than so far in Tampa. Sounds like a typical knee jerk article like the knee jerk articles three weeks ago proclaiming the Patriots offense better with Newton.

I’ve said for years that McDaniels is overrated though. He isn’t an idiot...it’s just that with Brady, prime Gronk, etc., there are a lot offensive coordinators who would look like geniuses. When challenged with short handed personnel, I haven’t seen much brilliance from him at all.

He didn’t do well in Denver or St. Louis; heck, even Bill O’Brien was brilliant when he had Brady. He gets too much credit for the team’s success.

But most of this is just the nature of coaching...like how the Ravens brought in so many offensive coordinators yet Joe Flacco always wound up with a passer rating of 83 - and prime to check downs - despite so much talk about concepts and schemes. There are only a few coordinators who truly seem to stand out over a long period of time with major personnel ups and downs.

 

[Tony2046]

Tony, you're a reasonable person.

Can you please indicate where I accused PB12 of not being a Pats' fan? I asked him a question, quite literally meaning I am trying to better understand his position.

His position is a fairly easy position to understand. Yours isn't.

Tom Brady, the guy who helped deliver six championships and twenty years of unbelievable memories is now a Buccaneer. So Patsboy and many of us grateful fans still watch him.

What's the problem?

 

[catent]

I don’t see how they’ve been “exposing him” considering both of their production was better in New England than so far in Tampa. Sounds like a typical knee jerk article like the knee jerk articles three weeks ago proclaiming the Patriots offense better with Newton.

I’ve said for years that McDaniels is overrated though. He isn’t an idiot...it’s just that with Brady, prime Gronk, etc., there are a lot offensive coordinators who would look like geniuses. When challenged with short handed personnel, I haven’t seen much brilliance from him at all.

He didn’t do well in Denver or St. Louis; heck, even Bill O’Brien was brilliant when he had Brady. He gets too much credit for the team’s success.

The issue with McDaniels is that he doesn't seem very adaptable. He can game-plan well, prepare, find a scheme that suits his personnel, but when forced to tweak things during a game he either, a.) is completely unable to, or b.) overcorrects.

Just really lacking in tact/nuance, seems overly reliant on game-planning, doesn't seem capable of making small tweaks, and telegraphs plays based on personnel/formation. Finds something that works well and sticks with it until it doesn't. Everything just feels rigid and heavy-handed.

I mean, the fact it took them 55 minutes to change the offensive approach against LAR in the 2018/19 Super Bowl is a really good example of that.

The best analogy I have is : the kid who could ace tests when presented with the word-for-word questions in advance, but if you take those questions and tweak them slightly (maintaining the same core concepts but changing the wording) they crumble.

He's a darn good OC but he's not without his flaws.

 

[Triumph]

This is hilarious.

you did a lot of work for NOTHING. Because you didn't read the main point. The Steelers expend a lot of draft resources on receivers!! Holy cow, how did you miss this?

I didn't say the Patriots are just as successful as the Steelers with receivers? I said they had the same hit rate!!!

How did you miss this?

Because I did not miss it.

Steelers drafted 12 WRs I am not counting Claypool who looks like another Stud.
1 Johnson 3rd
2 Washington 2nd
3 Ju Ju Smith 2nd
4 Ayers 7th
5 Coates 3rd
6 Bryant 4th
7 J Brown 6th
8 Wheaton 3rd
9 Clemons 7th
10 Sanders 3rd
11 A Brown 6th
12 Wallace 3rd

Patriots drafted 10 WRs
1 Harry 1st
2 Berrios 6th
3 Mitchell 4th
4 Lucien 7th
5 Gallon 7th
6 Dobson 2nd
7 Boyce 4th
8 Ebert 7th
9 Price 3rd
10 Tate 3rd

The Steelers have 2 more drafts picks devoted to WRs.

Same hit rate? What? The Pats have drafted ZERO Elite WRs since 2009.

Heres a fun fact - 2009 draft Mike Wallace was pick # 84 and Brandon Tate was pick # 83. NE is not in the same league with Pittsburgh drafting WRs.

 

[catent]

His position is a fairly easy position to understand. Yours isn't.

Tom Brady, the guy who helped deliver six championships and twenty years of unbelievable memories is now a Buccaneer. So Patsboy and many of us grateful fans still watch him.

What's the problem?

I haven't really stated my position so perhaps that's why my position isn't easy to understand to you - I haven't shared it. Going back to the original question, could you indicate where I accused PB12 of not being a Pats' fan?

Never once have I said I resent Brady. Never once have I said I'm rooting against him. Never once have I shamed others for rooting for Brady.

I'm a Patriots' fan. I love me some BB. I forever appreciate TB12 for all he did here and I admire his excellence and competitive spirit - I wish him well in every game he plays against a team not named the Patriots.

At a higher level, I've found this thread frustrating at times due to the hive-minded fighting between the two sides, with little room for reasonable conversation. Both parties are shooting barbs at the other, engaging in petty purity test BS, telling the other party they are not welcome here, and constantly antagonizing other posters ... both parties.

 

[upstater1]

Brady just takes what the defense gives him. He is fine on taking long 12 play drives to score.

Same old Brady. Cool, calm and collected. If the play isnt there not to panic. Gronk was involved today and next game it will be someone else. I see Brady implementing more of the plays that he likes into the Bucs offense.

I have to think Brady is focusing elsewhere to let those WRs heal.

All of them are hurt, Godwin, Evans, Miller, Watson.

He went to Brate a few times today too.

The Bucs should probably try incorporating Tyler Johnson into the game at this point because Godwin and Evans don't loo like their usual selves.

And there is very little receiving threat coming out of the backfield. McCoy looks old and Jones and Fournette are not so hot when it comes to receiving (& Fournette pass blocking).

 

[upstater1]

Because I did not miss it.

Steelers drafted 12 WRs I am not counting Claypool who looks like another Stud.
1 Johnson 3rd
2 Washington 2nd
3 Ju Ju Smith 2nd
4 Ayers 7th
5 Coates 3rd
6 Bryant 4th
7 J Brown 6th
8 Wheaton 3rd
9 Clemons 7th
10 Sanders 3rd
11 A Brown 6th
12 Wallace 3rd

Patriots drafted 10 WRs
1 Harry 1st
2 Berrios 6th
3 Mitchell 4th
4 Lucien 7th
5 Gallon 7th
6 Dobson 2nd
7 Boyce 4th
8 Ebert 7th
9 Price 3rd
10 Tate 3rd

The Steelers have 2 more drafts picks devoted to WRs.

Same hit rate? What? The Pats have drafted ZERO Elite WRs since 2009.

Heres a fun fact - 2009 draft Mike Wallace was pick # 84 and Brandon Tate was pick # 83. NE is not in the same league with Pittsburgh drafting WRs.

Yes, you did miss it. Go back and read my post.

The Steelers have drafted 17 WRs in the first 4 rounds in the last 2 decades.

The Patriots have drafted 9.

You can look solely at the first 3 rounds too, and it's obvious the Steelers just expend more premium resources:

Steelers 13
Patriots 7

The Steelers literally expend 2x as many premium resources as the Patriots do on WRs.

They've also had a lot of premium busts over the years, like Wheaton, Sweed, Coates, Archer, Reid, Gibson, Farmer, etc.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The issue with McDaniels is that he doesn't seem very adaptable. He can game-plan well, prepare, find a scheme that suits his personnel, but when forced to tweak things during a game he either, a.) is completely unable to, or b.) overcorrects.

Just really lacking in tact/nuance, seems overly reliant on game-planning, doesn't seem capable of making small tweaks, and telegraphs plays based on personnel/formation. Finds something that works well and sticks with it until it doesn't. Everything just feels rigid and heavy-handed.

I mean, the fact it took them 55 minutes to change the offensive approach against LAR in the 2018/19 Super Bowl is a really good example of that.

The best analogy I have is : the kid who could ace tests when presented with the word-for-word questions in advance, but if you take those questions and tweak them slightly (maintaining the same core concepts but changing the wording) they crumble.

He's a darn good OC but he's not without his flaws.

Yes, Super Bowl 53 is a great example. He gets all this praise for finally coming up with the right personnel for the Rams defense...on what, their 12th drive of the game?

 

[Tony2046]

I haven't really stated my position so perhaps that's why my position isn't easy to understand to you - I haven't shared it. Going back to the original question, could you indicate where I accused PB12 of not being a Pats' fan?

Never once have I said I resent Brady. Never once have I said I'm rooting against him. Never once have I shamed others for rooting for Brady.

I'm a Patriots' fan. I love me some BB. I forever appreciate TB12 for all he did here and I admire his excellence and competitive spirit - I wish him well in every game he plays against a team not named the Patriots.

At a higher level, I've found this thread frustrating at times due to the hive-minded fighting between the two sides, with little room for reasonable conversation. Both parties are shooting barbs at the other, engaging in petty purity test BS, telling the other party they are not welcome here, and constantly antagonizing other posters ... both parties.

Are you playing some stupid semantics game?

"As an aside, I do find it a bit curious that you've posted 6 times today, all of which have been in the Tampa thread. Are you no longer a Pats' fan? And I mean that completely seriously, no snark intended."

Pretty clear that you're questioning his Pat fandom.

Patsboy is clearly a Patsfan.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Because I did not miss it.

Steelers drafted 12 WRs I am not counting Claypool who looks like another Stud.
1 Johnson 3rd
2 Washington 2nd
3 Ju Ju Smith 2nd
4 Ayers 7th
5 Coates 3rd
6 Bryant 4th
7 J Brown 6th
8 Wheaton 3rd
9 Clemons 7th
10 Sanders 3rd
11 A Brown 6th
12 Wallace 3rd

Patriots drafted 10 WRs
1 Harry 1st
2 Berrios 6th
3 Mitchell 4th
4 Lucien 7th
5 Gallon 7th
6 Dobson 2nd
7 Boyce 4th
8 Ebert 7th
9 Price 3rd
10 Tate 3rd

The Steelers have 2 more drafts picks devoted to WRs.

Same hit rate? What? The Pats have drafted ZERO Elite WRs since 2009.

Heres a fun fact - 2009 draft Mike Wallace was pick # 84 and Brandon Tate was pick # 83. NE is not in the same league with Pittsburgh drafting WRs.

The Steelers are absolutely better at drafting WRs than the Patriots. That said, it is an easier task for them to pick them since they rely so much on athleticism and not so much on read-react intelligence. Their inability to adapt to different defensive looks has been a huge problem for the team for many years.