OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[venecol]

Yeah, I left Donovan Smith out because I wasn't sure if they'd want to commit to him longer term, but he's another major source of potential savings.

With Brady's extension I was mainly illustrating the maximum firepower the Bucs have. Agree that 2 or 3 years (maybe including a voidable year) is more realistic and they probably don't need to convert all his salary/ roster bonus above the minimum to signing bonus. In my example, I still had ~$35m of cap space left after re-signing all their free agents and they won't need that full amount. Bottom line is that there's no reason from a cap perspective why they can't return everyone.

Is this what you're talking about? Over the cap shows cap savings of $50M with extensions of just the top four. Not sure what their assumptions are for extensions.

 

[RIpats88]

Revis is a bad example. He was the ultimate disloyal money chaser and played the Jets for all he could get.

Yeah probably not the best example. But once the shine wears off and the Bucs have to make hard decisions of who they want to keep and set a dollar value on someone. Alot of these guys are going to go for the most money when other teams are offering them millions more and more years.

We see it happen every year with super bowl winners

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Revis is a bad example. He was the ultimate disloyal money chaser and played the Jets for all he could get.

Mevis is more like it. They could lose some guys but they will keep some guys. Some of their guys are older as well. I expect david to be resigned. I would say he’s more important to that defense than barrett.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

Yeah probably not the best example. But once the shine wears off and the Bucs have to make hard decisions of who they want to keep and set a dollar value on someone. Alot of these guys are going to go for the most money when other teams are offering them millions more and more years.

We see it happen every year with super bowl winners

This year is different though. A lot of teams will be cutting players because they’re way over the cap. Not everyone’s gonna spend this year. As i mentioned you can see players taking one year deals until the cap goes back up.

 

[Deus Irae]

But aren't you feeding into that narrative by saying Brady showed it was him? Also feeding into the narrative that tampa was a bad team and Brady dragged them to a championship.

No

 

[amfootball]

But aren't you feeding into that narrative by saying Brady showed it was him? Also feeding into the narrative that tampa was a bad team and Brady dragged them to a championship.

What if Bill wins one before he retires. Does the argument shift again?

Tampa is a very talented and stacked team on offense and defense who then added fournette, Gronk and Antonio brown. Brady brought discipline on offense and his intangibles like leadership which were enough to get them to win a championship. Brady didn't go from 25tds and a wildcard loss to 40tds and a superbowl win just out of nowhere. The talent level is alot higher on the bucs. That doesn't take anything away from brady's success in tampa

I am sure if you stick Bill on alot of talented teams like say the packers he could coach them to a championship.

Why can't we admit it was both of them together? Maybe brady wins Superbowls without Bill, maybe Bill wins without brady. But it's not 6 over 20 years. We had 2 separate dynasties with totaly separate teams.

I think this past year begs the question if Brady could have won more with a different GM.

 

[1960Pats]

Want - yes.

Does BB need to validate his status as GOAT coach? Absolutely not

Even BB the GOAT needs a QB. If Ariens, Leftwitch and Bowles can win with Brady then Bill can win with just a decent QB. Wilson would be a good choice if he could land him.

 

[Deus Irae]

What if Bill wins one before he retires. Does the argument shift again?

Tampa is a very talented and stacked team on offense and defense who then added fournette, Gronk and Antonio brown. Brady brought discipline on offense and his intangibles like leadership which were enough to get them to win a championship. Brady didn't go from 25tds and a wildcard loss to 40tds and a superbowl win just out of nowhere. The talent level is alot higher on the bucs. That doesn't take anything away from brady's success in tampa

I am sure if you stick Bill on alot of talented teams like say the packers he could coach them to a championship.

Why can't we admit it was both of them together? Maybe brady wins Superbowls without Bill, maybe Bill wins without brady. But it's not 6 over 20 years. We had 2 separate dynasties with totaly separate teams.

You're now arguing the second argument, which is the talk show argument rather than the actual argument.

And, even there, your argument fails. Tampa hadn't even been in the playoffs since 2007. Tampa hadn't won a playoff game since 2002. Tampa's recent win totals were 7,5,5,9,6,2, and 4.

 

[RIpats88]

I think this past year begs the question if Brady could have won more with a different GM.

Kind of revisionist history though. Bill had to tear down the roster that won the first 3 Superbowls and went to 5 more Superbowls winning 3. We don't win those other 3 without guys like Edelman, Gronk, hightower, mccourty, amendola...all guys Bill brought in or drafted.

Football is the ultimate team game. Without butlers pick, or hightowers strip sack of matt ryan do we win those Superbowls?

 

[RicoG]

He has already said that he wants to play past age 45. I think he would be thrilled if Tampa gave him that type of commitment. That is what he wanted from the Pats all along.

I'm pretty sure he'll get that additional year to 45. It will be interesting if he gets a real commitment to 46 that is not done just for cap purpose.

I'm a believer up to that point and hope he retires by 47. I don't want to seen him play average like Brees, River, Big Ben this year, or heaven forbid like Manning in his last year.

 

[RIpats88]

You're now arguing the second argument, which is the talk show argument rather than the actual argument.

And, even there, your argument fails. Tampa hadn't even been in the playoffs since 2007. Tampa hadn't won a playoff game since 2002. Tampa's recent win totals were 7,5,5,9,6,2, and 4.

It's just a poor argument to say tampa is not a talented team. On offense they may be the most stacked team he has been on since 2007. There is a reason he chose to go there. And not so he could "drag them to a championship" because they have a roster that's ready to win now with studs all over the place that gives him the best chance to win.

If Brady can do it all by himself why didn't he drag the 2019 Patriots to a super bowl?

On defense they have names all over the place. There is a reason brady picked Tampa. He elevated them to a championship yes. But using their records with winston who is a horrible QB is a poor argument

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

No, he said he would consider playing past 45. As of now, he told Jim Gray that he wants to play at least until 45. Then Alex Guerrerro said there are times when he feels like he can play until 46 or 47. With him I think it's a wait and see approach. I'm sure his family is going to have a big say in whether he should continue.

I agree he will likely sign a one-year extension to help with the salary cap and provide some more security.

In terms of when he retires, I think it also might depend on how long Tampa Bay can contend for. It looks like Tampa Bay is going all-in for a few years at most, screw the future, and they should be. Looking at their past drafts and contracts, I think they will be a heavy championship contender in 2021 (age 44) and 2022 (age 45.) Obviously injuries, decline of play for both Tom or his teammates can change things quickly. Bottom line is, I don't see him suiting up for a season at age 46 with a team that went 10-6 one-and-done, clearly in a nosedive, and lacking some great weapons and protection on offense.

He isn't playing for another team.

This is his last stop.

 

[1960Pats]

Sure, go ahead

I might steal it too but I won't attribute it to you.

 

[NYCPATS4LIFE]

It's just a poor argument to say tampa is not a talented team. On offense they may be the most stacked team he has been on since 2007.

On defense they have names all over the place. There is a reason brady picked Tampa. He elevated them to a championship yes. But using their records with winston who is a horrible QB is a poor argument

Yes tampa bay is loaded but it’s silly to say any of these top QBs would automatically win the super bowl with tampa. It was 10 years before a wildcard won the super bowl. Last time it was green bay.

 

[AlexB]

Is this what you're talking about? Over the cap shows cap savings of $50M with extensions of just the top four. Not sure what their assumptions are for extensions.

Also not sure exactly what their assumptions are, but I think I was doing something similar. The advantage the Bucs have is that there's very little dead cap or amortized signing bonuses from previous restructurings, so it's really easy to clear up cap space.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's just a poor argument to say tampa is not a talented team. On offense they may be the most stacked team he has been on since 2007. There is a reason he chose to go there. And not so he could "drag them to a championship" because they have a roster that's ready to win now with studs all over the place that gives him the best chance to win.

If Brady can do it all by himself why didn't he drag the 2019 Patriots to a super bowl?

On defense they have names all over the place. There is a reason brady picked Tampa. He elevated them to a championship yes. But using their records with winston who is a horrible QB is a poor argument

What's poor is your attempt to steer the argument by taking up absurd positions. Stop. You're making a fool out of yourself. But let me play, just a little tiny bit, in the sandbox you're trying to build.

Patriots with Brady (2019): 12-4 and a playoff appearance
Patriots without Brady (2020): 7-9 and missed the playoffs

Bucs without Brady (2019): - 7-9 and missed the playoffs
Bucs with Brady (2020): 11-5 and SB champs


Patriots Belichick without Brady (2000): 5-11
Patriots Belichick with Brady (2001): 11-5 and SB champs

Patriots Belichick with Brady (2007): 16-0 and a SB appearance
Patriots Belichick without Brady (2008): 11-5 and missed the playoffs


It's not just a one year sample, and that's even when you ignore BB's tenure in Cleveland.

 

[amfootball]

Kind of revisionist history though. Bill had to tear down the roster that won the first 3 Superbowls and went to 5 more Superbowls winning 3. We don't win those other 3 without guys like Edelman, Gronk, hightower, mccourty, amendola...all guys Bill brought in or drafted.

Football is the ultimate team game. Without butlers pick, or hightowers strip sack of matt ryan do we win those Superbowls?

I am more thinking that what if Bill spend more money/picks on the offense vs the defense. Brady is just so special when he has elite talent. We saw that in 2007. To have gone 10 years with no chip seems ridiculous given Brady's pedigree to elevate the team and clutchesness.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Why?

People say that Parcells never won a Super Bowl without Belichick and it's true.

Today, Belichick the head coach has never won a thing without Brady.

It's flawed logic.

Do people say Chuck Noll didn;t win anything without Tb12 v1 and Joe Greene?

Point is people are creating a unnecessary division.

...and who cares what Parcells did w/o BB. Irrelevant.

 

[RIpats88]

Yes tampa bay is loaded but it’s silly to say any of these top QBs would automatically win the super bowl with tampa. It was 10 years before a wildcard won the super bowl. Last time it was green bay.

They probably don't. It's brady's intangibles that put them over the top.

I'm just saying that this argument of "look Brady dragged a 7-9 team to a superbowl" is flawed since it doesn't take into account the talent on the team. It's like saying Tampa's roster that was 7-9 is equivalent to our roster that went 7-9. They aren't equal

They just needed discipline and to learn how to win which brady brought them.

 

[AlexB]

I might steal it too but I won't attribute it to you.

Lol, I'm fine either way