OT: Golden State Warriors Sputtering Toward the End

[RobertWeathers]

First of all, what is this about Faulk? He caught 7 passes including one with 3:31 left in the game. When was he injured?

3rd qtr. Hammy. He came back in and was ok but IMO wasn't the same.

It would be rightly criticized (including by you!) if a Seahawk fan came in here blaming the loss on injuries. It is pure hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty to argue against that nonsense out of one side of the mouth and then to argue that the SB 42 loss was due to injuries out of the other side.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that injuries to key players have an impact on the outcome of a game. It's applicable if a player does not play or sustains and injury during the game and are not as effective.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Most over dramatic and embarrassing stunt I've ever seen.

I have no issue with him getting cramps. It happens. Everyone gets cramps especially if you play hard- which I think LeBron does.

This issue is using it as an excuse and going public about it.

 

[rochrist]

If an injury to an "all pro caliber guard" (who never made a pro bowl) gives rise to an injury excuse, then most likely every game in NFL history was decided "due to injuries"

Dont you think that one drive is too small of a sample size to base your argument on? How many times have the Pats given up an early score and then clamped down?

Belichick on the guy you're denigrating:

Belichick said in a statement, "They don't come any better than Steve Neal. In terms of improvement and development as a player, Steve may have accomplished more than any player I have ever been around. His toughness, intelligence and competitiveness were at rare levels and all contributed to him going from being a champion in an individual sport to being an integral part of championship teams. I congratulate Steve for an incredible career and thank him for everything he did for me personally, our team and organization."

 

[letekro]

Hes not the 2nd greatest player in NBA history. In their respective primes hes not even in the top 5.
-MJ
-Russell
-Bird
-Magic
-Kareem

Hes top 10 most likely. Hes somewhere between Wilt, Elgin Baylor

Covers more ground than any player in NBA history? Whaaa?



LeBron is an immense talent. I think there is an insecurity, mental toughness and a focus that he lacks that the greats have.

I personally do not put GS in the GoAT team discussion. There are probably a dozen past NBA champions that would beat GS in 6 or less games.

Ok. For argument's sake, let's say he is top 7 (as per Bill Simmons a few years ago). Why does that impact whether you are a fan of his? The 7th best player to ever lace them up is not deserving of your respect?

And the mental toughness? Where were you on June 7, 2012? Granted, he is not the killer that Bird or Jordan were, but who is?

Yes, he is the fastest player of his era (or any other era--if you have any doubts watch ), he plays incredible amounts of minutes, he is the primary ball handler on offense and all over the place on defense. It is very likely he covers the most ground in history. Add that to his size and it is not hard to imagine how that enormous body could run out of gas in a Finals game.

 

[letekro]

Belichick on the guy you're denigrating:

Belichick said in a statement, "They don't come any better than Steve Neal. In terms of improvement and development as a player, Steve may have accomplished more than any player I have ever been around. His toughness, intelligence and competitiveness were at rare levels and all contributed to him going from being a champion in an individual sport to being an integral part of championship teams. I congratulate Steve for an incredible career and thank him for everything he did for me personally, our team and organization."

Neal is an incredible story. A world-class wrestler with little football background that developed into a starting NFL player and a darn good one. That is what Bill is speaking to here. But, he was never recognized as one of the best in the league by the press or his peers (or by Bill in this statement). That is just factual. I have never denigrated him in any way. As you see in my posts above if you would just read them, I agree he was a good player (when healthy, which he almost never was).

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ok. For argument's sake, let's say he is top 7 (as per Bill Simmons a few years ago). Why does that impact whether you are a fan of his? The 7th best player to ever lace them up is not deserving of your respect?.

I respect LeBron as a player but that does not mean I need to be a fan. I don't like Jabbar either. I think hes a jerk but I respect the hell out of his game. Same with Kobe. Despicable.

And the mental toughness? Where were you on June 7, 2012? Granted, he is not the killer that Bird or Jordan were, but who is?

Yes- I watched that game. If the Heat didn't get past and old Celtics team that would have been pathetic. LeBron did have a great game- as he should have.

Thats where the greatness attribute comes in. Russell, Magic, Jabbar....I'd put Kobe hire on the killer scale than LeBron.

Yes, he is the fastest player of his era (or any other era--if you have any doubts watch ), he plays incredible amounts of minutes, he is the primary ball handler on offense and all over the place on defense. It is very likely he covers the most ground in history. Add that to his size and it is not hard to imagine how that enormous body could run out of gas in a Finals game.

LeBron is a gifted, immense talent. He very well might be the THE most gifted athlete in NBA history. I might need to think about that one...

 

[letekro]

I respect LeBron as a player but that does not mean I need to be a fan. I don't like Jabbar either. I think hes a jerk but I respect the hell out of his game. Same with Kobe. Despicable.



Yes- I watched that game. If the Heat didn't get past and old Celtics team that would have been pathetic. LeBron did have a great game- as he should have.

Thats where the greatness attribute comes in. Russell, Magic, Jabbar....I'd put Kobe hire on the killer scale than LeBron.



LeBron is a gifted, immense talent. He very well might be the THE most gifted athlete in NBA history. I might need to think about that one...

Nobody has to like anybody, but Jabbar has been an ornery recluse and Kobe is also a tough character with a rape charge on the resume to boot. LeBron? Is basically a good dude that plays the game the right way. I just don't get it.

 

[letekro]

3rd qtr. Hammy. He came back in and was ok but IMO wasn't the same.



I don't think it's unreasonable to say that injuries to key players have an impact on the outcome of a game. It's applicable if a player does not play or sustains and injury during the game and are not as effective.

Injuries are "huge", "have an impact" blah blah blah. Seahawk fan comes here and says, we were the better team, but we lost because of injuries. You are calling BS--Yes or no?

Also, you have to be kidding on the Faulk stuff. I can tell you with some certainty without even checking that Giants came in and out of that game with injuries as well.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Nobody has to like anybody, but Jabbar has been an ornery recluse and Kobe is also a tough character with a rape charge on the resume to boot. LeBron? Is basically a good dude that plays the game the right way. I just don't get it.

As you can sense I'm a little older. I go back to the early 80s in my hoop watching. I'll acknowledge that Bird was a backwards-jerk who alienated his own daughter. Magic got his coach fired and was big time into being paid just as much as Kareem. Russell was a surly isolationist. Jordan gambled and got in fist fights with almost everyone. Kobe is well, Kobe. Its Tiger Woods syndrome with him. I'm glad hes gone because I don't like him but I miss his greatness.

Every player has their faults. No one is perfect.

LeBron....hes too "ME". The "Talents To South Beach" thing. Blaming his Finals performance on the cramps. Being all pissy at Mavs fans and the refs after the 2011 Finals in which he performed a gag job. Taking off his jersey after the Celts kicked his ass. Unfollowing the Cavs on Twitter...

Just a mountain of little irky, dumb, little things that are just caddy, self-serving and narcissistic.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Injuries are "huge", "have an impact" blah blah blah. Seahawk fan comes here and says, we were the better team, but we lost because of injuries. You are calling BS--Yes or no?

Also, you have to be kidding on the Faulk stuff. I can tell you with some certainty without even checking that Giants came in and out of that game with injuries as well.

I don't call BS because it is fact. When Avril went out Brady was stepping up and throwing darts.

Faulk was hurt. Watch the game. 3rd Qtr. He lost his effectiveness picking up the rush/blitz.

 

[Froob]

I respect LeBron as a player but that does not mean I need to be a fan. I don't like Jabbar either. I think hes a jerk but I respect the hell out of his game. Same with Kobe. Despicable.



Yes- I watched that game. If the Heat didn't get past and old Celtics team that would have been pathetic. LeBron did have a great game- as he should have.

Thats where the greatness attribute comes in. Russell, Magic, Jabbar....I'd put Kobe hire on the killer scale than LeBron.



LeBron is a gifted, immense talent. He very well might be the THE most gifted athlete in NBA history. I might need to think about that one...

I never saw him play, but from the sounds of it I would say that's probably Wilt. Wilt might be the most gifted athlete in human history.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I never saw him play, but from the sounds of it I would say that's probably Wilt. Wilt might be the most gifted athlete in human history.

Maybe. I'm a junkie with that stuff and have watched a ton of old games. Wilt was incredible.

Keep in mind Bill Russell was a huge track star as well. They wanted him to qualify for the long and high jump for the 1956 Olympics in Melbourne.

 

[letekro]

Why? Both were starting caliber players that were lost due to injury and were replaced by lesser players. Of course you can point blame to the injuries. How much blame you can assign for the loss is another question.

In Super Bowl XLII, it's commonly understood that the primary reason for the Pats loss was due to pressure on Brady with three to four men rushes, particularly up the gut (see: A and B gaps) where Brady is vulnerable. Why were the Giants able to generate pressure? After Neal left the game, both Hochstein and Kaczur began to lose their battles badly on the right side of the OL. As a result, the protection slid to their side, leaving Mankins with less help from Koppen that he had gotten on the first series. So, as you can see (and as you would be able to see if you watch the coverage and tape from that game again), injuries allowed the pressure. When you combine that with the fact that Brady had spent a week before that game walking around in a boot and was clearly not as mobile as he had been all season inside the pocket, you have the reason for the offense getting bogged down. So let's review, shall we?

1. We are both in agreement that breakdowns in pass protection caused the offense to be slowed down.

2. The breakdowns began to happen after Neal left the game.

3. The breakdowns were due to the Patriots offering Hochstein and Kaczur extra help.

4. Mankins was left one on one with Tuck as a result.

5. A and B gap pressure commenced in the face of a quarterback with an injured ankle.

So yes, the pass protection breakdowns were primarily caused by injuries. Those breakdowns were the primary reason for the Patriots losing the game. Therefore, those injuries were the primary reason the Pats lost the game. This really isn't that difficult.

No, it's not difficult, if you want to ignore the facts and create causation where none exists. Brady was sacked twice and pressured twice more while Neal was still in the game. Brady had 3 completions for 24 yards on very short passes to Welker, Stallworth and Faulk on the opening drive (and a bailout pass interference on a play when Strahan blew by Kaczur), a single screen pass completion on the second drive, and back-to-back sacks on the third drive, which was a three and out (with Neal in). In sum, on Neal's three drives, Brady was:

4-8, 32 yards, 2 sacks, 2 pressures.

Kontra to your statements above, most of which are Kontra-factual, the film does not suggest that Neal's injury made the difference, at all. Quite frankly, the only reason there wasn't more pressure on Brady in the 3 drives Neal played is because the Giants secondary was playing off and the short stuff was there. Once they made Brady hold the ball (which started on that third drive) the pressure was coming from all sides. Neal, Hochstein, Hannah. It just wouldn't have mattered (Hannah at all 3 interior spots and we would've had a good chance).

 

[EatSleepWinRepeat]

The injury-apologist are absolutely shameless. The more they try to justify their position, the worse they look. For god sake, accept that the 07 team wasn't as good as we thought they were and move on.

 

[Froob]

The injury-apologist are absolutely shameless. The more they try to justify their position, the worse they look. For god sake, accept that the 07 team wasn't as good as we thought they were and move on.

Maybe, I feel like the Giants cheated. Which is proof that they did. They probably took Bill's hoodie before the game forcing him to wear the unlucky red one. Cheating no good cheaters.

 

[Kontradiction]

No, it's not difficult, if you want to ignore the facts and create causation where none exists. Brady was sacked twice and pressured twice more while Neal was still in the game. Brady had 3 completions for 24 yards on very short passes to Welker, Stallworth and Faulk on the opening drive (and a bailout pass interference on a play when Strahan blew by Kaczur), a single screen pass completion on the second drive, and back-to-back sacks on the third drive, which was a three and out (with Neal in). In sum, on Neal's three drives, Brady was:

4-8, 32 yards, 2 sacks, 2 pressures.

Kontra to your statements above, most of which are Kontra-factual, the film does not suggest that Neal's injury made the difference, at all.

One of those sacks came from Neal... on the play where he injured his knee. That was also the effective drive ender. One of those pressures came on the first play of the game when the Patriots faked an end around. Kyle Brady and Matt Light both gave up pressure and Alford hurried Brady (who could not get away) and put him on his back after getting rid of the ball. After Neal left, the team surrendered 3 more sacks, 7 more hits, and more pressures. The only person in this debate that's ignoring the facts is you. In the series in which Neal played, the Patriots had 18 plays generated 7 points on the board. In the series without him and, subsequently, where New England had to begin shifting protection to the right side of the OL, the Pats had 7 points the rest of the game and that was when the Giants, by their own admission, had tired. The reason why I was suggesting that you watch the film is because, if you had (and you clearly didn't), you could see what the Patriots were doing in pass protection to help Kaczur and Hochstein on the right side.

Quite frankly, the only reason there wasn't more pressure on Brady in the 3 drives Neal played is because the Giants secondary was playing off and the short stuff was there. Once they made Brady hold the ball (which started on that third drive) the pressure was coming from all sides. Neal, Hochstein, Hannah. It just wouldn't have mattered (Hannah at all 3 interior spots and we would've had a good chance).

Yeah... that's not true at all. The Giants were playing pretty aggressive press man coverage throughout the first and second halves. They rolled out that game plan to make Brady have to hold the ball longer and that was purely in response to the Week 17 contest where they were playing a lot of off man and zone. The second third down of the game the Pats faced was a shotgun snap that ended up going to Welker. You can review the tape on that as well. Those corners were up and pressing and they were doing it early and often. Where you got that they were playing off man and zone is absolutely beyond me. The biggest adjustment the Giants defense made in that game was actually when it came to run defense. You'll remember the Pats gouged them on the first drive running behind Neal. On obvious running downs, Spags loaded the left side of the LOS.

 

[supafly]

The injury-apologist are absolutely shameless. The more they try to justify their position, the worse they look. For god sake, accept that the 07 team wasn't as good as we thought they were and move on.

Is it really that controversial to suggest that an 18-0 team which is arguably one of the greatest of all time, may have been affected by some key injuries in a 17-14 game?

Most of us know damn well that a healthy Pats team takes the Giants' best shot and likely wins by a FG or TD. That isn't meant to take anything away from their great performance. I don't see anyone suggesting that they didn't deserve to win, only that the usual variables (bounces, calls, injuries) helped their cause.

 

[Kontradiction]

The injury-apologist are absolutely shameless. The more they try to justify their position, the worse they look. For god sake, accept that the 07 team wasn't as good as we thought they were and move on.

Super edgy post, bro.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Is it really that controversial to suggest that an 18-0 team which is arguably one of the greatest of all time, may have been affected by some key injuries in a 17-14 game?

Ellis Hobbs' strained groin comes to mind...that might have had an impact on the outcome on, you know, the game-losing play.

 

[letekro]

One of those sacks came from Neal... on the play where he injured his knee. That was also the effective drive ender. One of those pressures came on the first play of the game when the Patriots faked an end around. Kyle Brady and Matt Light both gave up pressure and Alford hurried Brady (who could not get away) and put him on his back after getting rid of the ball. After Neal left, the team surrendered 3 more sacks, 7 more hits, and more pressures. The only person in this debate that's ignoring the facts is you. In the series in which Neal played, the Patriots had 18 plays generated 7 points on the board. In the series without him and, subsequently, where New England had to begin shifting protection to the right side of the OL, the Pats had 7 points the rest of the game and that was when the Giants, by their own admission, had tired. The reason why I was suggesting that you watch the film is because, if you had (and you clearly didn't), you could see what the Patriots were doing in pass protection to help Kaczur and Hochstein on the right side.



Yeah... that's not true at all. The Giants were playing pretty aggressive press man coverage throughout the first and second halves. They rolled out that game plan to make Brady have to hold the ball longer and that was purely in response to the Week 17 contest where they were playing a lot of off man and zone. The second third down of the game the Pats faced was a shotgun snap that ended up going to Welker. You can review the tape on that as well. Those corners were up and pressing and they were doing it early and often. Where you got that they were playing off man and zone is absolutely beyond me. The biggest adjustment the Giants defense made in that game was actually when it came to run defense. You'll remember the Pats gouged them on the first drive running behind Neal. On obvious running downs, Spags loaded the left side of the LOS.

Kontra,

Neal was injured because Tuck got by Mankins without Mankins so much as breathing on him, allowing Tuck to fly full speed into Neal's knee while sacking Brady. Watch the tape. 34:50 of this: .

There is no evidence--none--that the OL would have handled the Giants if Neal had stayed in there. With Neal, the offense mustered 51 yards over 3 drives, with 16 of those coming by way of penalty. Your assumption that all would have been fine if Neal had been healthy is just wishful thinking. It may have happened that way, but there is nothing in the first 3 series that supports that proposition.