OT: Golden State Warriors Sputtering Toward the End

[RobertWeathers]

It's embarrassing the lengths some Patriots fans will go to excuse probably the most inexcusable loss in sports history. Let them cope by blaming injury and refs and whatever else helps them sleep at night but the fact is they lost because the Giants were the better team that day and it's a shame we'll all have to live for the rest of our lives unless Brady somehow goes 19-0 before he retires.

A non holding call on Green and knowing Samuel's hands were all buttery helps me get through the day.

 

[letekro]

I think it's fair to assume that Brady needing to wear a walking boot, our starting RG going down early, and our CB2 being hobbled may have had something to do with losing a very close 17-14 game. That's just my opinion, but I certainly respect the views of those who see it differently and am not meaning to take anything away from the awesome effort given by the NYG.

I simply believe that things would've turned out differently without those injuries, that's all. In a very tight contest, good/bad bounces and injuries can certainly come into play.

No doubt it had some impact but 2 mild injuries that can be played through and an OG going out does not an injury excuse make. They were very healthy considering it was the 19th game of an NFL season.

 

[Kontradiction]

i didnt notice it but thats just me. At any rate, it is embarassing to suggest that the result in SB 42 was due to injuries.

The team's top flight RG goes down and suddenly the Giants are able to generate pressure up the A and B gaps by rushing 3-4 down lineman and winning one on one battles while the team's pocket passer was in a walking boot leading up to the game and you're saying that the game somehow wasn't lost on injuries? You're smarter than this.

 

[letekro]

The team's top flight RG goes down and suddenly the Giants are able to generate pressure up the A and B gaps by rushing 3-4 down lineman and winning one on one battles while the team's pocket passer was in a walking boot leading up to the game and you're saying that the game somehow wasn't lost on injuries? You're smarter than this.

If Neal was the lynchpin of the Patriots offense why were they able to score 38 points against the Giants without him in the regular season finale?

And it was Mankins, not Neals replacement, who couldnt handle Justin Tuck, which led to breakdowns throughout the interior.

And spare me the condescension next time, particularly when your argument is that Stephen Neal was somehow the key to that 2007 team even though he missed 8 games in the regular season and the team didnt miss a beat.

 

[Kontradiction]

If Neal was the lynchpin of the Patriots offense why were they able to score 38 points against the Giants without him in the regular season finale?

And it was Mankins, not Neals replacement, who couldnt handle Justin Tuck, which led to breakdowns throughout the interior.

Go back and watch the tape. The Patriots were sliding protection to that side because Hochstein and Kaczur were getting abused. When the OL can't work as a unit, there are breakdowns all over the place. Kaczur was a poor RT in the first place and was bolstered by Neal for much of the season. They got exposed in the big game. Further, the Giants were playing a lot more off man coverage with two deep safeties in the Week 17 regular season finale which meant that Brady was able to get the ball out of his hands quickly. When the Giants began to press, the deep passing game opened up. In the Super Bowl, the Giants were playing press man all game long. Do you not remember the talk about how that was a death wish in pre-game? Because I do. Instead, it worked to their advantage, throwing off the timing and disrupting the routes of our wideouts just enough so that pressure up the A and B gaps could get to Brady. Even in the finale, Brady was still battered nonetheless. That was the game where the Giants knew they could get to him with four down linemen and that confidence showed in the Super Bowl.

The tipping point came when Neal went down. So you have an All-Pro caliber RG out of the game and a statue of a quarterback with an ankle injury wearing a walking boot. And yet here you are saying that injuries were not the reason the Pats lost. That's high comedy.

And spare me the condescension next time, particularly when your argument is that Stephen Neal was somehow the key to that 2007 team even though he missed 8 games in the regular season and the team didnt miss a beat.[/

And now you're tossing out red herrings. Where did I say that Neal was the key to the 2007 team? The Pats lost that Super Bowl because, after marching down the field with zero pressure in Brady's face on the opening drive, Neal went down the pressure began coming up the A and B gaps when the right side of the OL had breakdown after breakdown, forcing the team to shift protections. Brady couldn't evade that pressure because he was on a gimpy ankle.

So, with that, I ask you this: if this wasn't due to injuries, what was it due to?

 

[letekro]

Go back and watch the tape. The Patriots were sliding protection to that side because Hochstein and Kaczur were getting abused. When the OL can't work as a unit, there are breakdowns all over the place. Kaczur was a poor RT in the first place and was bolstered by Neal for much of the season. They got exposed in the big game. Further, the Giants were playing a lot more off man coverage with two deep safeties in the Week 17 regular season finale which meant that Brady was able to get the ball out of his hands quickly. When the Giants began to press, the deep passing game opened up. In the Super Bowl, the Giants were playing press man all game long. Do you not remember the talk about how that was a death wish in pre-game? Because I do. Instead, it worked to their advantage, throwing off the timing and disrupting the routes of our wideouts just enough so that pressure up the A and B gaps could get to Brady. Even in the finale, Brady was still battered nonetheless. That was the game where the Giants knew they could get to him with four down linemen and that confidence showed in the Super Bowl.

The tipping point came when Neal went down. So you have an All-Pro caliber RG out of the game and a statue of a quarterback with an ankle injury wearing a walking boot. And yet here you are saying that injuries were not the reason the Pats lost. That's high comedy.



And now you're tossing out red herrings. Where did I say that Neal was the key to the 2007 team? The Pats lost that Super Bowl because, after marching down the field with zero pressure in Brady's face on the opening drive, Neal went down the pressure began coming up the A and B gaps when the right side of the OL had breakdown after breakdown, forcing the team to shift protections. Brady couldn't evade that pressure because he was on a gimpy ankle.

So, with that, I ask you this: if this wasn't due to injuries, what was it due to?

If an injury to an "all pro caliber guard" (who never made a pro bowl) gives rise to an injury excuse, then most likely every game in NFL history was decided "due to injuries"

Dont you think that one drive is too small of a sample size to base your argument on? How many times have the Pats given up an early score and then clamped down?

 

[Kontradiction]

If an injury to an "all pro caliber guard" (who never made a pro bowl) gives rise to an injury excuse, then most likely every game in NFL history was decided "due to injuries"

1. Pro Bowl is a popularity contest and Neal was never as appreciated outside of the team as he was within the fan base.

2. You're correct. Injuries play a very large part in every single NFL game. This tends to happen when you have roster limits.

Now answer my question. If the pass protection breakdowns and subsequent A and B gap pressure were not due to injury, what were they due to?

 

[letekro]

1. Pro Bowl is a popularity contest and Neal was never as appreciated outside of the team as he was within the fan base.

2. You're correct. Injuries play a very large part in every single NFL game. This tends to happen when you have roster limits.

Now answer my question. If the pass protection breakdowns and subsequent A and B gap pressure were not due to injury, what were they due to?

AP All Pro is not a popularity contest and he never made 1st 2d or 3d team as far as i am aware. Whatever, I grant you he was a good player. The breakdowns in pass pro were due to loss of 1 on 1 matchups, inability to run, inability to get the short passing game going, inability to adjust by the coaches--everyone shares the blame; for some reason you are blaming everything on Russ Hochstein.

Your argument is the same as a Seahawk fan blaming the SB 49 loss on the injury to Jeremy Lane since Edelman's subsequent abuse of Tharold Simon was an enormous factor in the win (in fact i think the Seahawk fan has the stronger argument). That argument would certainly not be well received here and with good reason.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

I would like to see someone other then the cavs in the nba finals. I don't know if the Cs can get out of the first round. They need to get a top 2 pick badly. I would like to see Ingram in a celtics jersey. I really think he can be a special player.

 

[Kontradiction]

AP All Pro is not a popularity contest and he never made 1st 2d or 3d team as far as i am aware. Whatever, I grant you he was a good player. The breakdowns in pass pro were due to loss of 1 on 1 matchups, inability to run, inability to get the short passing game going, inability to adjust by the coaches--everyone shares the blame

Using your own logic, Mankins did not struggle in the Week 17 contest. Why? Because the Pats did not have to shift protection to the right side throughout that game. When you combine that with the fact that the quick passing game was working, you get the result of the Week 17 game. Further, as has been mentioned, Brady was still pressured more than he was in most games that season during that contest. In the Super Bowl, the Giants adjusted their coverage in the back end and that, along with the loss of Neal after the first series (again, one which they marched down the field for the score) and a gimpy Brady lead to unrelenting pressure. So yes, in other words, injuries were a very important reason to that loss. Much more important than you're making them out to be.

for some reason you are blaming everything on Russ Hochstein.

Where did I do that? This is another red herring. There were plenty of factors for that loss. There are usually a number of factors that take place in any game to determine a winner and a loser. Injuries were a huge reason for it as well, as has been pointed out to you.

Your argument is the same as a Seahawk fan blaming the SB 49 loss on the injury to Jeremy Lane since Edelman's subsequent abuse of Tharold Simon was an enormous factor in the win (in fact i think the Seahawk fan has the stronger argument). That argument would certainly not be well received here and with good reason.

That's certainly one reason the Seahawks lost that game. So yes, I would agree there. The question is whether or not Edelman would have still had the game he did with Lane in there but there is no question that his injury opened things up. The minute Simon came into the game, Brady told McDaniels that's where they were going with the ball and the results spoke for themselves. So, once again, you make a point that injuries were a huge part of that contest as well.

 

[realtime]

I would like to see someone other then the cavs in the nba finals. I don't know if the Cs can get out of the first round. They need to get a top 2 pick badly. I would like to see Ingram in a celtics jersey. I really think he can be a special player.

Agreed. Ingram has really grown on me a lot this season. At first, I thought he would be too much of a mess defensively to make an immediate impact in the NBA, but he really started using his length to his advantage and showed that he can be very disruptive on D. Offensively, the KD comparisons are overblown, IMO, but he can still be an outstanding scorer -- he's got kind of an old-school ABA/George Gervin kind of offensive game which will still play well in today's NBA.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I would like to see someone other then the cavs in the nba finals. I don't know if the Cs can get out of the first round. They need to get a top 2 pick badly. I would like to see Ingram in a celtics jersey. I really think he can be a special player.

I agree. I respect his game but I am not a LeBron fan. None of the greats would have shut it down during an NBA Finals game because of cramps.

I like Ingram but he needs to start eating some steaks and hit the weight room.

 

[letekro]

Using your own logic, Mankins did not struggle in the Week 17 contest. Why? Because the Pats did not have to shift protection to the right side throughout that game. When you combine that with the fact that the quick passing game was working, you get the result of the Week 17 game. Further, as has been mentioned, Brady was still pressured more than he was in most games that season during that contest. In the Super Bowl, the Giants adjusted their coverage in the back end and that, along with the loss of Neal after the first series (again, one which they marched down the field for the score) and a gimpy Brady lead to unrelenting pressure. So yes, in other words, injuries were a very important reason to that loss. Much more important than you're making them out to be.



Where did I do that? This is another red herring. There were plenty of factors for that loss. There are usually a number of factors that take place in any game to determine a winner and a loser. Injuries were a huge reason for it as well, as has been pointed out to you.



That's certainly one reason the Seahawks lost that game. So yes, I would agree there. The question is whether or not Edelman would have still had the game he did with Lane in there but there is no question that his injury opened things up. The minute Simon came into the game, Brady told McDaniels that's where they were going with the ball and the results spoke for themselves. So, once again, you make a point that injuries were a huge part of that contest as well.

Well, I would call BS if a Seahawk fan tried to blame the loss on the Jeremy Lane injury (or the Avril injury), and I would call BS on anyone blaming the Neal injury (or the very minor injuries to Brady and Hobbs) for the result in SB 42. If you are revising your position to injuries are "a factor," then there can be no disagreement.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, I would call BS if a Seahawk fan tried to blame the loss on the Jeremy Lane injury (or the Avril injury), and I would call BS on anyone blaming the Neal injury (or the very minor injuries to Brady and Hobbs) for the result in SB 42. If you are revising your position to injuries are "a factor," then there can be no disagreement.

Losing Lane and Avril were huge for SEA.

Just like the Pats losing Neal and Faulk.

 

[letekro]

I agree. I respect his game but I am not a LeBron fan. None of the greats would have shut it down during an NBA Finals game because of cramps.

I like Ingram but he needs to start eating some steaks and hit the weight room.

It is not a coincidence that LeBron covers more ground in an NBA game than any other player in history and that he had such debilitating cramps in the Finals. LeBron has been nothing but a great player (now, many would agree the second best all time after Jordan) and even better person from the time he was a kid in high school. He almost took down a historically great team in last year's Finals BY HIMSELF. What must he do to earn your fandom?

 

[Kontradiction]

Well, I would call BS if a Seahawk fan tried to blame the loss on the Jeremy Lane injury (or the Avril injury), and I would call BS on anyone blaming the Neal injury (or the very minor injuries to Brady and Hobbs) for the result in SB 42. If you are revising your position to injuries are "a factor," then there can be no disagreement.

Why? Both were starting caliber players that were lost due to injury and were replaced by lesser players. Of course you can point blame to the injuries. How much blame you can assign for the loss is another question.

In Super Bowl XLII, it's commonly understood that the primary reason for the Pats loss was due to pressure on Brady with three to four men rushes, particularly up the gut (see: A and B gaps) where Brady is vulnerable. Why were the Giants able to generate pressure? After Neal left the game, both Hochstein and Kaczur began to lose their battles badly on the right side of the OL. As a result, the protection slid to their side, leaving Mankins with less help from Koppen that he had gotten on the first series. So, as you can see (and as you would be able to see if you watch the coverage and tape from that game again), injuries allowed the pressure. When you combine that with the fact that Brady had spent a week before that game walking around in a boot and was clearly not as mobile as he had been all season inside the pocket, you have the reason for the offense getting bogged down. So let's review, shall we?

1. We are both in agreement that breakdowns in pass protection caused the offense to be slowed down.

2. The breakdowns began to happen after Neal left the game.

3. The breakdowns were due to the Patriots offering Hochstein and Kaczur extra help.

4. Mankins was left one on one with Tuck as a result.

5. A and B gap pressure commenced in the face of a quarterback with an injured ankle.

So yes, the pass protection breakdowns were primarily caused by injuries. Those breakdowns were the primary reason for the Patriots losing the game. Therefore, those injuries were the primary reason the Pats lost the game. This really isn't that difficult.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It is not a coincidence that LeBron covers more ground in an NBA game than any other player in history and that he had such debilitating cramps in the Finals. LeBron has been nothing but a great player (now, many would agree the second best all time after Jordan) and even better person from the time he was a kid in high school.

Hes not the 2nd greatest player in NBA history. In their respective primes hes not even in the top 5.
-MJ
-Russell
-Bird
-Magic
-Kareem

Hes top 10 most likely. Hes somewhere between Wilt, Elgin Baylor, Olajuwon, Shaq, Kobe, etc

Covers more ground than any player in NBA history? Whaaa?

He almost took down a historically great team in last year's Finals BY HIMSELF. What must he do to earn your fandom?

LeBron is an immense talent. I think there is an insecurity, mental toughness and a focus that he lacks that the greats have.

I personally do not put GS in the GoAT team discussion. There are probably a dozen past NBA champions that would beat GS in 6 or less games.

 

[letekro]

Losing Lane and Avril were huge for SEA.

Just like the Pats losing Neal and Faulk.

First of all, what is this about Faulk? He caught 7 passes including one with 3:31 left in the game. When was he injured?

It would be rightly criticized (including by you!) if a Seahawk fan came in here blaming the loss on injuries. It is pure hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty to argue against that nonsense out of one side of the mouth and then to argue that the SB 42 loss was due to injuries out of the other side.

 

[Froob]

I agree. I respect his game but I am not a LeBron fan. None of the greats would have shut it down during an NBA Finals game because of cramps.

I like Ingram but he needs to start eating some steaks and hit the weight room.

Most over dramatic and embarrassing stunt I've ever seen.

 

[rochrist]

i didnt notice it but thats just me. At any rate, it is embarassing to suggest that the result in SB 42 was due to injuries.

Well, on top of that, Stephen Neal went down midway through the second quarter, and the protection was notably worse after that.