OT: Did the Bucs SB loss Break Patrick Mahomes?

[1960Pats]

I think the crucial point here is that Brady had better teams, even relative to the league being different.

Number one ranked defenses in points allowed three years.

Winning off vinateri kicks 2 years.

Malcolm butler pick 1 year.

James white scores 20 points and McDaniels eats up Atlanta man coverage one year… with Brady making throws that while accurate, were well in the wheelhouse of any good qb…

Held the rams to a low score one year while still not blowing them out.

Corey Dillon was a beast, Ty Law was a beast, Seymour/Wilfork/Milloy… beasts. James white was and is a beast, mayo/ht in their heyday beasts… branch, brown some of the most underrated wrs. Welker beast. Edelman beast (even if we never got to see him outside ne)

So again… adjusting for “inflation”, Montana is behind tb sure… but then you have to account for Brady’s coaching and defenses too. They put him in positions to make the throws and calls that he did. In the playoffs, regular season, and Super Bowls.

One thing that I admire about Brady is his presence in the pocket tho… so given that… I know that back then he’d still have been a great qb. But still, let’s not get out of hand here. He’s the goat by a much slimmer margin than we act like, meaning he’ll be replaced.

People fighting that inevitability by crabbing on mahommes and others are hurt fanboys.

I see... go on.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I think the crucial point here is that Brady had better teams, even relative to the league being different.

Number one ranked defenses in points allowed three years.

Winning off vinateri kicks 2 years.

Malcolm butler pick 1 year.

James white scores 20 points and McDaniels eats up Atlanta man coverage one year… with Brady making throws that while accurate, were well in the wheelhouse of any good qb…

Held the rams to a low score one year while still not blowing them out.

Corey Dillon was a beast, Ty Law was a beast, Seymour/Wilfork/Milloy… beasts. James white was and is a beast, mayo/ht in their heyday beasts… branch, brown some of the most underrated wrs. Welker beast. Edelman beast (even if we never got to see him outside ne)

So again… adjusting for “inflation”, Montana is behind tb sure… but then you have to account for Brady’s coaching and defenses too. They put him in positions to make the throws and calls that he did. In the playoffs, regular season, and Super Bowls.

One thing that I admire about Brady is his presence in the pocket tho… so given that… I know that back then he’d still have been a great qb. But still, let’s not get out of hand here. He’s the goat by a much slimmer margin than we act like, meaning he’ll be replaced.

People fighting that inevitability by crabbing on mahommes and others are hurt fanboys.

The one thing Brady didn't have as a member of the Patriots is a blowout super bowl win...every game was decided by one score. However, I wouldn't put him "behind" Montana for that reason...

 

[‘Mondre]

You talk as if Vinatieri’s FGs somehow lessens the accomplishment. In both games Brady was instrumental on the last drive getting it in FG range for Adam to win it. Especially against the Panthers when our defense fell apart in the 2nd half thank god Tom and offense picked up the slack.

The Seattle game…again Brady was awesome in crunch time to get us the lead. Thankfully the defense held on at the end. 400 yards against LOB was nothing to sneeze at. Just ask Peyton
Manning.

Atlanta…did the Falcons help us out? Absolutely. But from 3 min left in the 3rd on Tom was fantastic. (Even with some luck on the Edelman grab.)

Rams..No argument here. Defense ruled the day. Again when we needed to have the TD Brady delivered with a beautiful throw to Gronk.

Are we just adjusting for bradys defense and coaching and ignoring Montanas coaching, offense with the Goat WR plus the fact that a lack of FA allowed the niners to stay together as long as they did?

Lastly, disagree on Brady being replaced as the GOAT. Sure his regular season stats could be toppled due in large part to the extra game but those postseason records will be hard to beat. I mean the guy was basically in the Super Bowl at a 50% clip during his career.

man please if mahommes kicker wins that sb against tb that’s all we’d be hearing here. Have some objectivity for Christs sake

 

[‘Mondre]

The one thing Brady didn't have as a member of the Patriots is a blowout super bowl win...every game was decided by one score. However, I wouldn't put him "behind" Montana for that reason...

Yea I wouldn’t either. I literally said it’s closer than ppl here pretend it is.

Meaning he’ll be replaced.

Meaning ppl will crab at any great qb who gets hyped up in the future.

Meaning the Brady boys are just like the ‘72 dolphins ppl celebrating teams not going undefeated.

 

[‘Mondre]

I think our biggest problem is how often posters reply to obvious trolls like mondre. It got to the point that I stopped reading any posts he made or any replies to him. It's not worth my time.

You just replied up there and you’re trolling me.

 

[amfootball]

I don't get the love for Kermit the QB. He's impatient in the pocket and not all that accurate. I love his sidearm throws, especially when he misses a wide open target.

The answer to the OP's question is yes, the Bucs did break Mahomes, literally and figuratively. There was one sack where he got sandwiched and I thought they broke him in half. He hasn't been the same since.

Mahomes was seen as invincible leading up to the SB. I remember the media saying the loss of the two tackles won't matter because Mahomes is that special that he does not need his line. LOL. It really was epic what happened with the beat down the Bucs gave him, preventing him from scoring a TD for the first time in his career. I also think losing to Brady in that fashion, the guy he is going to be chasing his entire career had to be soul crushing given Brady had beaten him 2 years prior in KC in the champ game.

You know, most of us think QBs and teams should just shake off bad losses but that rarely happens to teams not named the Patriots and QBs not named Brady. We watched it happen for 2 decades and it continued in Tampa.

 

[amfootball]

LOL. ChiefsPlanet is still wondering if Mahomes is broken. This is a delicious thread.

Football What if Mahomes is broken? - ChiefsPlanet

Football What if Mahomes is broken? Nzoner's Game Room

www.chiefsplanet.com

 

[sean10mm]

I don't know that Mahomes is broken so much as the league adapted to him, like they do everything else.

 

[amfootball]

I don't know that Mahomes is broken so much as the league adapted to him, like they do everything else.

It is valid point. The league, really starting with the Tampa SB, is using his tendencies against him. The Bengals only rushed 3 for most of the second half and those 3 didn't try to sack him but created a pocket so he could not escape outside and then they had a spy on him if he tried to take off up the middle. They basically played him basketball style with their backs to the basket and dared him to make the shots. He couldn't. Chiefs fans were wondering why they didn't run more which was the same complaint after the SB with Tampa as well. To me, it was like our Rams SB game in 2001 when we also dared the Rams to run Faulk and they didn't because Bill knew Martz wanted to throw. It is not in Reid's DNA nor Patrick's to play the patient game.

 

[Zarozzor]

Mahomes was seen as invincible leading up to the SB. I remember the media saying the loss of the two tackles won't matter because Mahomes is that special that he does not need his line. LOL. It really was epic what happened with the beat down the Bucs gave him, preventing him from scoring a TD for the first time in his career. I also think losing to Brady in that fashion, the guy he is going to be chasing his entire career had to be soul crushing given Brady had beaten him 2 years prior in KC in the champ game.

You know, most of us think QBs and teams should just shake off bad losses but that rarely happens to teams not named the Patriots and QBs not named Brady. We watched it happen for 2 decades and it continued in Tampa.

The cloud of losing a conference championship to a 41-year-old Brady and then getting blown out in a Super Bowl by a 43-year-old Brady will always hang over him. It doesn't matter if he somehow wins 6 or 7 Super Bowls (he won't) and breaks regular-season records. His ceiling would still be #2 all-time.

I've said it before, but that's like an end-of-career Jordan beating prime LeBron in the ECF or Finals.

 

[Fixit]

It is valid point. The league, really starting with the Tampa SB, is using his tendencies against him. The Bengals only rushed 3 for most of the second half and those 3 didn't try to sack him but created a pocket so he could not escape outside and then they had a spy on him if he tried to take off up the middle. They basically played him basketball style with their backs to the basket and dared him to make the shots. He couldn't. Chiefs fans were wondering why they didn't run more which was the same complaint after the SB with Tampa as well. To me, it was like our Rams SB game in 2001 when we also dared the Rams to run Faulk and they didn't because Bill knew Martz wanted to throw. It is not in Reid's DNA nor Patrick's to play the patient game.

Cincinnati's defenders were clearly coached to not fall for Mahomes' jab-step-then-reverse move that he always uses when he gets flushed out. They stayed home and completely nullified the massive broken plays.

 

[Fixit]

On another note, Brady's the only QB I've even seen get criticized because other players or units do what they're supposed to do. Vinny hits the game winner against Carolina, but people forget he'd already missed a kick and had another one blocked. And the D took the day off. But that ring is because of Vinny, I guess.

Winning 31-9 was due to the defense (what?), but throwing for 500+ yards and 3 TDs with no D to be found is "He lost to Nick Foles!"

Contrast that with Peyton Manning getting dragged kicking and screaming to his only two SB wins, which no one ever talks about.

It's ****ing weird.

 

[libra957]

Mahomes just needs to get rid of his bad habits. He believes in his hype too much, next thing you know he's dancing around , trying to throw curve passes when a simpler approach would have suffice.

 

[amfootball]

On another note, Brady's the only QB I've even seen get criticized because other players or units do what they're supposed to do. Vinny hits the game winner against Carolina, but people forget he'd already missed a kick and had another one blocked. And the D took the day off. But that ring is because of Vinny, I guess.

Winning 31-9 was due to the defense (what?), but throwing for 500+ yards and 3 TDs with no D to be found is "He lost to Nick Foles!"

Contrast that with Peyton Manning getting dragged kicking and screaming to his only two SB wins, which no one ever talks about.

It's ****ing weird.

It's the ultimate team game.

 

[VectorPrime]

Mahomes just needs to get rid of his bad habits. He believes in his hype too much, next thing you know he's dancing around , trying to throw curve passes when a simpler approach would have suffice.

He has a head coach who loves his bad habits.

 

[Nikolai]

I’m not saying any of this. You need to take a step back and try to understand my argument. You said "fight me" and then you change the subject...

You're the one moving goalposts. You called them co-GOATs and said you can't compare stats across eras.

Let me spell it out for you. They are not co-GOATs. You CAN compare stats across eras. I'll say it for the third time, since you missed the first two. There is no objective measure by which Montana is Brady's equal.

Fight. Me.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

You're the one moving goalposts. You called them co-GOATs and said you can't compare stats across eras.

Let me spell it out for you. They are not co-GOATs. You CAN compare stats across eras. I'll say it for the third time, since you missed the first two. There is no objective measure by which Montana is Brady's equal.

Fight. Me.

Again, you are using stats as the only basis for comparing the two. I am basing my reasoning on qualitative factors like leadership, arm strength, pocket awareness, mobility, ball placement, etc, categories where I think Montana is just as good as Brady. This is how scouts evaluate players coming out of college since they can't use stats as a basis to compare a Big10 player vs ACC, etc. And for the HUNDREDTH time, I am not comparing them based on stats.

Every time I "fight you," you change the subject.

 

[Bruins29]

Again, you are using stats as the only basis for comparing the two. I am basing my reasoning on qualitative factors like leadership, arm strength, pocket awareness, mobility, ball placement, etc, categories where I think Montana is just as good as Brady. This is how scouts evaluate players coming out of college since they can't use stats as a basis to compare a Big10 player vs ACC, etc. And for the HUNDREDTH time, i am not comparing them based on stats.

Every time I "fight you," you change the subject.

Look, you lost, its over. It was a cute sentiment and a nice try to call them co-goats. But you are making our point for us. If JM had all the same intangibles as TB then he would have played just as long, or been in the same amount of superbowls per season, or won as many rings etc.

You cant have it both ways.

JM certainly had the opportunity to win more with all the great players on his team. And he could have extended his career if that was something important to him. It was not obviously - not anywhere near what TB did to insure he could play well into his 40s. Sure he took more violent hits but was he as disciplined as TB?

And its not like there were not precedents for playing a longer career back then. Sticky Rice played until he was 42. In a much more dangerous position than Montana did.

Just stop....its getting embarrassing.

 

[Nikolai]

I think the crucial point here is that Brady had better teams, even relative to the league being different.

Number one ranked defenses in points allowed three years.

We're talking 2001-2019 here (Brady in NE years).

The only teams to win the Super Bowl with the number one points allowed since Brady took over are the 2002 Bucs, 2003 Pats, 2008 Steelers, 2013 Seahawks, and 2016 Pats. Firstly, there is not a strong correlation between points allowed and SB wins, especially after 2008. Seahawks led the league in points allowed from 2012-2015 and have one Super Bowl to show for it. Pittsburgh had four seasons of leading the league in points allowed and won one SB in those years, and one when they didn't. The Bears also had three seasons of leading the league in points allowed and 0 SB wins.

Brady is the only QB to take multiple #1 defenses in points allowed to SB wins during his career.

Winning off vinateri kicks 2 years.

Who drove the Pats down the field for those field goals?

2001 - On that last drive you give Brady no credit for, there were 8 plays. Brady passed on all eight plays, completing five, missing one, and two were spikes to stop the clock. a 103.4 passer rating if that's your thing.

2003 - Again, similar situation, Brady is 5/6 for 67 yards (113.19 rating). He passed on every play of the drive.

Malcolm butler pick 1 year.

Did you miss the 10 point comeback, 14 point fourth quarter and insane passing stats by Brady against one of the best defenses of all time in the fourth quarter to make it 28-24? I assume you did.

James white scores 20 points and McDaniels eats up Atlanta man coverage one year… with Brady making throws that while accurate, were well in the wheelhouse of any good qb…

Did James White throw the ball? Did McDaniels?

"Any good QB" (the MVP no less) was on the other sideline watching it all slip away.

Held the rams to a low score one year while still not blowing them out.

Brady didn't hold them to a low score. He plays QB, not defense. Who made the throw to Gronk (a perfect throw I might add) to get first and goal from inside the five?

Corey Dillon was a beast, Ty Law was a beast, Seymour/Wilfork/Milloy… beasts. James white was and is a beast, mayo/ht in their heyday beasts… branch, brown some of the most underrated wrs. Welker beast. Edelman beast (even if we never got to see him outside ne)

Plenty of teams have talent every year. Not all get to the Super Bowl. The Pats had decent talent though there was probably never a season, except possibly 2007, where they were the most talented team in the league. Most years, they played against teams in the Super Bowl with better talent.

So again… adjusting for “inflation”, Montana is behind tb sure… but then you have to account for Brady’s coaching and defenses too. They put him in positions to make the throws and calls that he did. In the playoffs, regular season, and Super Bowls.

Brady has a coaching advantage, no doubt. Montana had better defenses and better talent overall. Between 1981-1989 (only eight seasons), the 49ers had a top three defense six times (75% of the time). Between 2001-2019, eighteen seasons, the Pats had a top three defense only five times (28% of the time).

One thing that I admire about Brady is his presence in the pocket tho… so given that… I know that back then he’d still have been a great qb. But still, let’s not get out of hand here. He’s the goat by a much slimmer margin than we act like, meaning he’ll be replaced.

He may be replaced, but the margin is not slim. Brady over Montana is Gretzky over Howe. Ovechkin has a chance to catch Gretzky in goals, but it's not going to be easy. Gretzky won five cups. Ovechkin won't catch him and no one will consider him the GOAT. Even if Mahomes passes for more TDs and yards, he won't catch Brady's seven Super Bowls.

People fighting that inevitability by crabbing on mahommes and others are hurt fanboys.

You seem offended that Brady is the GOAT. Are you a Niners fan? Colts? Chiefs?

It's ok that Brady is the GOAT. It won't take away from what is likely to be a stellar career from Mahomes. Is the next GOAT out there? Maybe. He might even be playing college football right now. Maybe he's even in the league right now. But catching Brady won't be as easy as you seem to think, but I feel your opinion is based on a very denigrated view of Brady's measurable success.

 

[Nikolai]

Again, you are using stats as the only basis for comparing the two. I am basing my reasoning on qualitative factors like leadership, arm strength, pocket awareness, mobility, ball placement, etc, categories where I think Montana is just as good as Brady. This is how scouts evaluate players coming out of college since they can't use stats as a basis to compare a Big10 player vs ACC, etc. And for the HUNDREDTH time, I am not comparing them based on stats.

You're using the "eye test". Well, that's the same kind of crap that has people thinking Rodgers and Mahomes are co-GOATs too.

Every time I "fight you," you change the subject.

You haven't fought me yet. You conceded the stats argument, you have no accomplishments argument, and the "eye test" is a "he said/she said" waste of time. I can do and "eye test" and tell you Randall Cunningham was the best to ever lace them up.