OT: Dan Orlovsky Top 5 QB's Of All Time

[p8ryts]

What is Tom Brady's place among the 5 greatest QBs in NFL history?

Tom Brady's retirement brings back the argument about who is the greatest QB ever.

sports.yahoo.com

Good to see some love for Waterfield, Van Brocklin and Sonny Jurgenson. Lot of room for discussion here, would be nice to sit around with some cold ones arguing about this list. More recency bias. Marino, Eli, Drew (one of my favorite QBs but over rated on this list) all questionable positioning.

 

[crawhammer]

************, these lists are all over the place. And not in a good way.

Another fool with Marino in the top 5. Marino was super talented, he put up ridiculous numbers for his era, but he never won a Super Bowl and he played poorly in the postseason. You can't put him in the top 5.

Elway 9th? Aikman at 16th with 3 SB rings? Bradshaw at 17th?!? He won an NFL MVP and he won 4 Super Bowls (2x MVP), 17th is insultingly too low, especially considering he's just a notch above Namath at 18. Only a franchise as pathetically inept as NYJ could product such an overrated figure.

I know Rosenthal wanted to carry out his list until he could include Jalen Hurts but once you're stumbling across names like Drew Bledsoe and Kerry Collins then you know you've gone too far.

There's even a Jimmy G siting on this list at 58. And I'll quibble with that as well because he has Jim McMahon at 59. McMahon has a SB ring and he played pretty well in that postseason too. Garoppolo is arguably the reason why Mahomes has his 1 ring. So, at least flipped those two. Then throw your list in the trash and try again because this one sucks.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I think Eli could be as good as Neil Lomax.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think Eli could be as good as Neil Lomax.

Lomax in a heartbeat.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Lomax in a heartbeat.

Yeah, I was just trying to pump his tires.

Weird, for a Pats fan, right?

BTW The Slimeline: The Helmet Catch was on yesterday. No, I didn't watch.

When will they do The Slimeline: Patriots Fake Cheating Scandals?

 

[crawhammer]

@Ice_Ice_Brady is 100% correct that Brees is overrated by many. He belongs in the 15-17 range. Probably around 9-10 if you’re only doing guys who played a bulk of their career in the Super Bowl era.

172-114 Regular Season Record (.601%)
9-9 Playoff Record. Here’s what the Saints offense did in the playoffs beginning in the 2013 Divisional Round

15 points
31 points (dome)
24 points (dome)
20 points (dome)
23 points (dome)
20 points (dome)
21 points (dome)
20 points (dome)

0 MVPs. For years I thought Brees was straight up robbed of the 2009 MVP. But then I looked at everything with him and Manning, and I hate to admit it, but Manning was a very deserving winner. This wasn’t a 2021 Brady situation.

I think Brees is quite clearly the 4th best quarterback of his own era. And he’ll soon be passed by Mahomes.

For anyone who considers themselves a stats geek (like myself) then Brees is a tough one because his numbers are so impressively prolific. 15 times 5000 passing yards has been reached by a quarterback: Brees (5), Brady (2), Mahomes (2), Manning (1), Roethlisberger (1), Winston (1), Marino (1), Stafford (1), Herbert (1). Winston is a clear blemish on the list but 5 times by Brees is pretty impressive. He never won a NFL MVP but he had a few seasons that were definitely worthy (2009, 2011 & 2018). And he was a very good postseason quarterback. Brees commonly takes a big hit in the rankings because he played in a dome. Well, it aided Peyton Manning as well, and he's typically listed in the top 5 despite losing to Brees head to head in a Super Bowl. That said, I think Peyton is better and should be ranked higher than Brees. I just think there's a tendency to knock down Brees to low on the list because of the dome variable.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

For anyone who considers themselves a stats geek (like myself) then Brees is a tough one because his numbers are so impressively prolific. 15 times 5000 passing yards has been reached by a quarterback: Brees (5), Brady (2), Mahomes (2), Manning (1), Roethlisberger (1), Winston (1), Marino (1), Stafford (1), Herbert (1). Winston is a clear blemish on the list but 5 times by Brees is pretty impressive. He never won a NFL MVP but he had a few seasons that were definitely worthy (2009, 2011 & 2018). And he was a very good postseason quarterback. Brees commonly takes a big hit in the rankings because he played in a dome. Well, it aided Peyton Manning as well, and he's typically listed in the top 5 despite losing to Brees head to head in a Super Bowl. That said, I think Peyton is better and should be ranked higher than Brees. I just think there's a tendency to knock down Brees to low on the list because of the dome variable.

Yeah but you're using 5000 yards as a historical high mark when realistically the only players capable of doing it are post-2000 QBs (save for one year by Marino.) So yes, Brees is this generation's statistical leader in terms of high yardage and high completion percentage, but you have to look at the progressive leaders over the years. True, Brees led the league in passing 7 times versus 4-5 times for guys like Baugh, Luckman, Unitas, Jurgenson, Marino, etc., but that's to be expected because the longer the season, the more likely you are to avoid statistical anomalies, and Brees is the high yardage guy across the league. Impressive? Yes. But leading the league in passing yardage 7 times is the takeaway, not the 5000+ stuff...that just leads to recency bias and negates other eras when half that yardage was enough to be #1. One day, the 5000 yard season will be the norm, just as no one would have ever believed the 3,000 yard season or the 4,000 yard seasons would be become the norm. But it's the exact same progressive increase that's always happening, and then people look back on the older players and downplay what they did during their time without context.

I think the volume stuff for Brees gives him a reasonable argument as the #3 QB of the era behind Brady and Manning, although I would still take Rodgers and as @venecol pointed out, Mahomes is basically passing him right now. But for his statistical accomplishments, I'd rank him ahead of guys like Roethlisberger and Warner. I think that's a fair amount of credit.

List of National Football League annual passing yards leaders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[crawhammer]

Yeah but you're using 5000 yards as a historical high mark when realistically the only players capable of doing it are post-2000 QBs (save for one year by Marino.) So yes, Brees is this generation's statistical leader in terms of high yardage and high completion percentage, but you have to look at the progressive leaders over the years. True, Brees led the league in passing 7 times versus 4-5 times for guys like Baugh, Luckman, Unitas, Jurgenson, Marino, etc., but that's to be expected because the longer the season, the more likely you are to avoid statistical anomalies, and Brees is the high yardage guy across the league. Impressive? Yes. But leading the league in passing yardage 7 times is the takeaway, not the 5000+ stuff...that just leads to recency bias and negates other eras when half that yardage was enough to be #1. One day, the 5000 yard season will be the norm, just as no one would have ever believed the 3,000 yard season or the 4,000 yard seasons would be become the norm. But it's the exact same progressive increase that's always happening, and then people look back on the older players and downplay what they did during their time without context.

I think the volume stuff for Brees gives him a reasonable argument as the #3 QB of the era behind Brady and Manning, although I would still take Rodgers and as @venecol pointed out, Mahomes is basically passing him right now. But for his statistical accomplishments, I'd rank him ahead of guys like Roethlisberger and Warner. I think that's a fair amount of credit.

List of National Football League annual passing yards leaders - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I have to believe Mahomes is showing up on these lists already because of what's being projected for him. He's been in the league for 5 seasons and obviously he's had a very impressive start to his career, but I don't see him keeping up that pace because he's going to have very strong competition for likely the rest of his career. Allen, Burrow and Herbert. Jackson if he can stay healthy. Watson if he can fully regain his form. Lawrence will enter this conversation soon. Perhaps Tua if concussions don't end his career first. Mahomes might lose to Hurts this weekend, and depending on how Hurts plays, then maybe he's on the list too.

I really think Mahomes needs this Super Bowl for his legacy standing. The QB he's gunning for in the long run (Brady), knocked him out of the postseason twice. He needs to get to 2 rings now and he'll still be 5 behind Brady (who has the tiebreaker if they both finish with 7 rings). A loss would put Mahomes at 1-2 in the SB with a strong unlikelihood of him keeping up his current pace of appearances.

With a win this weekend, Mahomes is definitely passing Roethlisberger and Warner. But I wouldn't put him past Rodgers yet, although he'll clearly be gaining ground. Brees? I'm not sure. As you alluded to, it's difficult getting his ranking correct. I'll have to see what happens this weekend first.

Even if Mahomes wins the SB and SB MVP this weekend (to go along with his second NFL MVP), he's not getting in my all-time top 5 yet. Brady had 3 rings and 2 SB MVPs after 4 seasons and it was clear he would be getting back to many more. With the number of elite quarterbacks that Mahomes will be facing in his conference alone, I don't think it's guaranteed he gets back to multiple Super Bowls. Plus his exceptional head coach (who isn't exactly a physical specimen) is turning 65 in March. We'll eventually see what Mahomes looks like without Reid.

 

[p8ryts]

In the old days they didn't have a QB coach, there was no Ernie Adams in the booth, there was no 20 seconds in the QB's ear, the play wasn't sent in from the bench. There were no penalties for hands to the face or hitting low, or protecting the QB. Their receivers were getting cloths lined, offensive linemen had to keep their hands in front their chest limiting their ability.

They had a game plan. The QB executed the game plan, called the plays in the huddle without assistance from the sideline. And oh by the way got the crap beat out of them. So it's not really appropriate to compare QB's all time because there aren't stats to quantify how well they operated the game plan. If you want to draw a line, I would say when the QB no longer called the plays and received the play call from the sidelines.

 

[yukon cornelius]

In the old days they didn't have a QB coach, there was no Ernie Adams in the booth, there was no 20 seconds in the QB's ear, the play wasn't sent in from the bench. There were no penalties for hands to the face or hitting low, or protecting the QB. Their receivers were getting cloths lined, offensive linemen had to keep their hands in front their chest limiting their ability.

They had a game plan. The QB executed the game plan, called the plays in the huddle without assistance from the sideline. And oh by the way got the crap beat out of them. So it's not really appropriate to compare QB's all time because there aren't stats to quantify how well they operated the game plan. If you want to draw a line, I would say when the QB no longer called the plays and received the play call from the sidelines.

do you then factor in guys like manning & brady who understood their offense and called most plays at the line? or changed plays at the line after making reads? or the fact that the defense has the same advantage, with coaches and video and a mic from the sideline calling plays?

 

[sean10mm]

Elway is so persistently overrated that it's just exhausting. Dude was a somewhat mobile Drew Bledsoe who was gifted two mega-teams built on cap cheating at the end. Before that he was the poster boy for giga-choking in the big game.

Staubach was a wildly better 2 ring QB than Elway. He had a better passer rating (in an era more hostile to the passing game, no less!) AND was a better runner, in spite of starting his career like 5 years late.

 

[TB12TheGoat]

Elway is so persistently overrated that it's just exhausting. Dude was a somewhat mobile Drew Bledsoe who was gifted two mega-teams built on cap cheating at the end. Before that he was the poster boy for giga-choking in the big game.

Staubach was a wildly better 2 ring QB than Elway. He had a better passer rating (in an era more hostile to the passing game, no less!) AND was a better runner, in spite of starting his career like 5 years late.

passing in the 1970s seems like trying to hit over the fence home runs in early 1900s MLB

the QB thread on here convinced me Staubach is underrated by almost everyone

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

In the old days they didn't have a QB coach, there was no Ernie Adams in the booth, there was no 20 seconds in the QB's ear, the play wasn't sent in from the bench. There were no penalties for hands to the face or hitting low, or protecting the QB. Their receivers were getting cloths lined, offensive linemen had to keep their hands in front their chest limiting their ability.

They had a game plan. The QB executed the game plan, called the plays in the huddle without assistance from the sideline. And oh by the way got the crap beat out of them. So it's not really appropriate to compare QB's all time because there aren't stats to quantify how well they operated the game plan. If you want to draw a line, I would say when the QB no longer called the plays and received the play call from the sidelines.

Passing yards inflation must be taken into account.

I'm not saying Mahomes & Elway suck, I'm just saying...

...uh...

...uh...

Let me put it this way:

Mark Rypien is not great. Nor is Flacco.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Elway is so persistently overrated that it's just exhausting. Dude was a somewhat mobile Drew Bledsoe who was gifted two mega-teams built on cap cheating at the end. Before that he was the poster boy for giga-choking in the big game.

Staubach was a wildly better 2 ring QB than Elway. He had a better passer rating (in an era more hostile to the passing game, no less!) AND was a better runner, in spite of starting his career like 5 years late.

Elway (& Drew) didn't choke; they just weren't great. But their local fan bases and media desperately WANTED them to be great.

Drew is a good guy who really tried his best.

Elway is a pampered crybaby. I'm surprised he's not a Raiders fan.

 

[crawhammer]

Elway is so persistently overrated that it's just exhausting. Dude was a somewhat mobile Drew Bledsoe who was gifted two mega-teams built on cap cheating at the end. Before that he was the poster boy for giga-choking in the big game.

Staubach was a wildly better 2 ring QB than Elway. He had a better passer rating (in an era more hostile to the passing game, no less!) AND was a better runner, in spite of starting his career like 5 years late.

I think Elway's career can be tough to evaluate. He was an NFL MVP and he did have 5 SB appearances with 2 wins and 1 SB MVP. But his SB stats in total are awful and he really only contributed favorably in the last one (when he won MVP). He was much better (but still not great) in the conference rounds of the postseason. He had decent mobility but he wasn't a prolific running quarterback (like the current crop of running QBs).

Weighing all facets of the game I don't think there's justification for excluding Elway from the top 10. I think it's fair to compare Elway and Staubach. I don't think either could be considered "wildly better" than the either but I would have Elway ahead. Bradshaw slots in ahead of both. He's 4-0 in Super Bowls with stellar play and 2 SB MVPs. He also took down Staubach's Cowboys in two of those SB wins.

Bledsoe frankly shouldn't be brought up in these 'best of' discussions. He was a highly flawed regular season quarterback and he was a total disaster in the postseason.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think Elway's career can be tough to evaluate. He was an NFL MVP and he did have 5 SB appearances with 2 wins and 1 SB MVP. But his SB stats in total are awful and he really only contributed favorably in the last one (when he won MVP). He was much better (but still not great) in the conference rounds of the postseason. He had decent mobility but he wasn't a prolific running quarterback (like the current crop of running QBs).

Weighing all facets of the game I don't think there's justification for excluding Elway from the top 10. I think it's fair to compare Elway and Staubach. I don't think either could be considered "wildly better" than the either but I would have Elway ahead. Bradshaw slots in ahead of both. He's 4-0 in Super Bowls with stellar play and 2 SB MVPs. He also took down Staubach's Cowboys in two of those SB wins.

Bledsoe frankly shouldn't be brought up in these 'best of' discussions. He was a highly flawed regular season quarterback and he was a total disaster in the postseason.

IMO you start to get into the second tier of all-time QBs with Elway. You have the clear cut era dominators like Baugh, Luckman, Graham, Unitas, Staubach, Montana, and Brady. Strong arguments for Manning and Starr in that class too. Now you’re in a place where it comes down to weight, whether it’s stats, championships, physical ability, etc because as a whole, the following QBs all have arguments of similar strength.

Bradshaw (4 rings, MVP, clutch play)
Brees (volume stats, records, longevity, consistency)
Dawson (one of era’s top QBs, won SB with Chiefs and was great in AFL)
Elway (a bit of everything with winning, physical gifts)
Favre (3x MVP, made 5 conference title games, legendary arm)
Lane (one of best QBs of the 50s, 2x champ)
Marino (raised the ceiling of the position, maybe best pure passer ever)
Rodgers (statistical/efficiency king)
Van Brocklin (won champ with 2 franchises, one of best passers of 50s)
Young (one of the best peak QBs of all-time, basically unstoppable for a few years)

 

[JMC00]

1. Brady
2. Montana
...don't care enough to rank anymore...

 

[p8ryts]

do you then factor in guys like manning & brady who understood their offense and called most plays at the line? or changed plays at the line after making reads? or the fact that the defense has the same advantage, with coaches and video and a mic from the sideline calling plays?

I'm not trying to make a science out of it. Just highlighting major differences in eras. Brady and Manning would have been great in any era.

 

[yukon cornelius]

I'm not trying to make a science out of it. Just highlighting major differences in eras. Brady and Manning would have been great in any era.

and i think you could say the same for a guy like unitas

it sucks trying to compare eras......but some guys were just great regardless

 

[p8ryts]

and i think you could say the same for a guy like unitas

it sucks trying to compare eras......but some guys were just great regardless

Johnny U will always be tied for #1 for me.