OT: Baker traded to Panthers

[TheRainMaker]

Regardless of whether Watson gets off (pun intended), he will rot in Cleveland.

Just an awful destination he chose. A perfect example how 99.9% of athletes think - money first, winning second.

 

[Bill Lee]

Would you say that Watson is innocent if he prevails in the civil court cases?

Honestly, no, I'm convinced by listening to Andrew Brandt's interview with one of the lead complainants and by Jenny Vrentas's writing. I'd be amazed if he prevails in the civil court. In fact by paying off 20 people already he's showing he feels the same way. If he was convinced he could prove his innocence, he'd go to trial on all the cases. CLE just paid him a $45M signing bonus on top of the $millions he's already earned from HOU. He is set for life. He can afford to go to trial. He just chose not to.

IMO chances are much higher there are other massage therapists he's victimized that just don't want to go through all the slut shaming that is bound to happen if they got involved in a trial, rather than he is actually innocent.

Innocence is a interesting topic. In the eyes of many, he's already guilty, regardless of the outcome of criminal or civil cases. No matter what happens, he'll always be viewed as a sexual deviant, so he already lost his reputation. He could adopt 100 Somali orphans and it won't change this for the people that already made up their minds.

His path to redemption starts with admitting he did something wrong. Heck, even his supporters here concede that he exposed himself and asked for sex. He can't even bring himself to admit that.

 

[Bill Lee]

There are few, if any, analogies. I guess they are both NFL football players so they have that in common.

As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

[mgteich]

Regardless of whether Watson gets off (pun intended), he will rot in Cleveland.

Just an awful destination he chose. A perfect example how 99.9% of athletes think - money first, winning second.

Employees want compensation.

Fans want top players to come to their teams for bargain prices.

I suppose most of would refuse to get say 10 times our current compensation, guaranteed for the next five years. NOT
===========
As far as money, congrats to the player and his agent.

As far as anything, we should prepare new busts in the CLE wing of the NFL Hall Of Shame for their current ownership and management.

 

[XLIX]

Cleveland wasn't originally in the picture, so they had to come in with the most money. Can't blame Watson for taking it.

 

[1960Pats]

It's understood by everyone with a brain SF is trying to trade Jimmy. Not that hard to make the jump that they believe in Lance and he's the guy going forward. Even if he's on the roster bc they can't trade him. Lance is the starter.

I'm not at all. In fact I'm probably 1 of maybe 5 people here that can have an objective convo about them. Specifically Jackson bc there's very few here that are honest, objective and actually know what they're talking about concerning him. All you have to do is look at almost any post and it's negative and utterly clueless. The ratio is like 100/1 with almost everyone repeating busted narratives that have been hanging around since college.

Most here thought he would suck coming out of college and won't admit they're wrong even though he's played at an MVP level during several stretches in his career.

I never saw Jackson in college but I have seen him in the NYFL. He's much more valuable as a runner than a passer and even if healthy he hasn't been much of a threat in the playoffs.

As for Lance, he's still an incomplete and hasn't had his chance yet.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Employees want compensation.

Fans want top players to come to their teams for bargain prices.

I suppose most of would refuse to get say 10 times our current compensation, guaranteed for the next five years. NOT
===========
As far as money, congrats to the player and his agent.

As far as anything, we should prepare new busts in the CLE wing of the NFL Hall Of Shame for their current ownership and management.

Yup.

Even in this case. Good for Watson. He's a creature. Absolute dumpster juice but I'm always happy to see players get paid. Even in this case and I'm being 100% serious. There's owners out there that have done and are doing worse rn. It's just not come to light and probably won't. Doesn't excuse it at all but make no mistake half these owners are just as bad if not worse considering age, standing in community/worldwide and how many people they're responsible for (jobs, family).

So yea Watson is a borderline sociopath with kinks and fetishes but he's still better than Irsay, Snyder, Kroenke etc those guys probably had their own private villa on Epstein's Island.

NFL is full of fun people

 

[1960Pats]

13 seconds better.

Speaking of 13 seconds... I was watching a replay of the SB comeback vs Atlanta and I noticed that when they had the lead late in the game that they kept snapping the ball with time left. Two times in a row there were 13 seconds when they snapped the ball and often it was over 10. It looked like all they had to do was run out the clock to win the game.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I never saw Jackson in college but I have seen him in the NYFL. He's much more valuable as a runner than a passer and even if healthy he hasn't been much of a threat in the playoffs.

You're obviously biased. That much has been shown lol. I say that with respect man. I just don't think your objective when it comes to Lamar.

So it's been proven on the field and with stats Lamar has been much better than Baker. Stats are posted on a page back comparing them. Baker has never had an all-pro or MVP season or stretches.

Baker has been a good to average QB so let's compare Jackson to Josh Allen. A universal top 5 QB.

Jackson has a higher comp %, almost 15 INT,

Less sacks / less yards given up by sacks,

Higher Y/A, ANY/A, AY/A (adjusted yards per attempt) , NY/A (net yards per passing attempt.

I get that he's not everyone's favorite but a lot of you have underrated him and kept false narratives going by not watching him.

Anyway stats certainly aren't the end all be all. Anyone that actually watched him play knows how good he is as a passer and the stats above show that as well. He's not perfect by any stretch but so much better than most here give him credit for. I get not a lot of people are watching Baltimore though when they're not playing NE.

As for Lance, he's still an incomplete and hasn't had his chance yet.

Yup. He'll get the chance this year. That'll be one of the more interesting watches in the league. Kyle has to be pissed with how the QB situation(s) have gone. Jimmy is good enough to help get you there. Maybe push a boulder over the edge when it's teetering but not could enough to be "the system" and build around. So you know he's going all in from a mental standpoint, play calling, trying to make it work in general.

 

[venecol]

Honestly, no, I'm convinced by listening to Andrew Brandt's interview with one of the lead complainants and by Jenny Vrentas's writing. I'd be amazed if he prevails in the civil court.

Yes, when listening to one side it's always convincing.

In fact by paying off 20 people already he's showing he feels the same way. If he was convinced he could prove his innocence, he'd go to trial on all the cases.

That's not the way civil cases go, since 90% of them are settled out of court. His #1 priority was not to get criminally charged. His #2 priority is to save his NFL career. Settling civil cases are a step towards achieving those 2 primary goals.

CLE just paid him a $45M signing bonus on top of the $millions he's already earned from HOU. He is set for life. He can afford to go to trial. He just chose not to.

He is going to trial (so far) on 5 cases.

His path to redemption starts with admitting he did something wrong. Heck, even his supporters here concede that he exposed himself and asked for sex. He can't even bring himself to admit that.

He has already admitted to having consensual sex as have some of the masseuses (not accusing him). It's clear he was cruising for happy endings. There's a huge gap between that and commiting sexual assaults. See below.

 

[venecol]

Here's Buzbee confirming no evidence of use of force, coercion or violence.

 

[Triumph]

I understand you and others just don't like Jackson and that's fine. We all have our bias. He's certainly not a perfect QB by any means but the below still stands suggesting he's been a better QB

Jackson is young Cam Newton and his style of game is not suited for the NFL. 16 TDs - 13 INTs last season with 2882 passing yards. Everyone is salivating over Jackson because of his rushing ability.

NFL teams invest the most cap dollars on the QB. So, why willingly expose him to more punishment? This plan has never worked in the past and wont work today.

"higher comp %, ANY/A, AY/A, Y/A, Almost 30 less sacks, has brought his team to the playoffs multiple years, has an MVP and was in the convo for MVP last year before he got hurt."

Has brought Baltimore to the playoffs more times and melted down..

Yes, Jackson was hard to sack and tackle, but that is changing as the hits tally up.

It's great to have an opinion but this is one of those where you're on an island by yourself. Which is fine, sometimes. No credible football person would hold the opinion Baker > Lamar.

Who are the credible football people that you speak of?

 

[Bill Lee]

Here's Buzbee confirming no evidence of use of force, coercion or violence.

So what? It's like saying a person accused of assault didn't commit murder too.

The key part from the Buzbee quote:

The majority of the civil cases we filed instead alleged indecent exposure and assault; that is, touching without consent.

The Anderson statements clearly want to give the impression of exoneration, they are spin control.

They didn't mention there is plenty of evidence that he did what the majority of the cases claim he did, and is showing a willingness to resolve via cash payouts.

 

[Bill Lee]

Yes, when listening to one side it's always convincing.

That's a cheap shot by you. Just because I say I find one side convincing, doesn't mean I didn't listen to the other side. In fact I've mentioned in this thread a few times of the 66 woman Vrentas discovered 18 have made statements supporting the man.

That's not the way civil cases go, since 90% of them are settled out of court. His #1 priority was not to get criminally charged. His #2 priority is to save his NFL career. Settling civil cases are a step towards achieving those 2 primary goals.

Yet his public claims are:

Deshaun Watson: "I just want to clear my name"

Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson last met with reporters on his first day in the building.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

While his actions are far more predictable.

He is going to trial (so far) on 5 cases.

After paying his way out of 20.

He has already admitted to having consensual sex as have some of the masseuses (not accusing him). It's clear he was cruising for happy endings.

So everyone is admitting there is intent, which is a large part of proving the claim.

There's a huge gap between that and commiting sexual assaults. See below.

Why do you think there's a huge gap between someone going to a massage expecting sexual release and then committing what the law defines as an assault, namely forced touching, to gain such a release?

Seems to me it's a tiny gap, even smaller when you then consider the power gradient.

 

[venecol]

So what? It's like saying a person accused of assault didn't commit murder too.

The key part from the Buzbee quote:

The Anderson statements clearly want to give the impression of exoneration, they are spin control.

They didn't mention there is plenty of evidence that he did what the majority of the cases claim he did, and is showing a willingness to resolve via cash payouts.

You realize he was getting a full body massage in the nude right? That the masseuse knew this and was OK w/ it. Have you ever had a nude full body massage?

The claims are he exposed himself. Yes, he was naked, covered by a towel.

Other claim is he touched w/o consent. Well he's being touched by masseuse on his naked body. Is it possible he got an erection? Is getting an erection while receiving a naked full body massage assault? No? Only if he touches her with his penis? Then that's assault?

I mean you can see how ridiculous these arguments are and how his very experienced trial attorney would completely impeach these women on the stand. What's the evidence? These cases are going to be very hard to prove.

I'm more interested in the NFL process, and the standard of proof is similar to that of a civil case. Aside from the subjective language in the personal conduct policy, the language under sexual says: "sexual assault involving physical force or committed against someone incapable of giving consent, a first offense will subject the offender to a baseline suspension w/o pay of 6 games."

So, if the NFL didn't present any evidence of violence, coercion or force, then per their own language, he didn't violate the standard. Buzzbee confirmed that only two of his cases alledged that and they were settled and the rest didn't incl. force or coercion. But even if he did use force or coercion, he's looking at 6 games.

I mean, it's pretty obvious he was cruising for happy endings. Sometimes he had consensual sex (that's allowed I guess since ppl say what Kraft did was consensual). Is a 24 yo rich man a scumbag for wanting to get happy endings an avg. of once a week from different masseuse? I'll leave that up to the moralists on the forum to decide. It's decidedly stupid though.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

If he was convinced he could prove his innocence, he'd go to trial on all the cases. CLE just paid him a $45M signing bonus on top of the $millions he's already earned from HOU. He is set for life. He can afford to go to trial. He just chose not to.

I also think that he probably did 3/4 of what he's been charged with.

But I think the Cleveland contract actually motivates him in the exact opposite direction. He is set for life. He can afford to pay everyone off, up front, and get it over with, at least with whomever will settle, even if their numbers are crazy.

 

[venecol]

That's a cheap shot by you. Just because I say I find one side convincing, doesn't mean I didn't listen to the other side. In fact I've mentioned in this thread a few times of the 66 woman Vrentas discovered 18 have made statements supporting the man.

How did you listen to the other side? Have you read the depos of the witnesses? Has defense attorney had a chance to impeach the accusers?

Yet his public claims are:

Deshaun Watson: "I just want to clear my name"

Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson last met with reporters on his first day in the building.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

While his actions are far more predictable.

Ok I guess, if you find it shocking that he maintains his innocence in public while doing EXACTLY what his attorney recommends in private.

After paying his way out of 20.

Yes, it was in his best interest to settle for peanuts w/ as many cases as he could while not assuming any culpability in order to prepare for the real consequential fight w/ the NFL. Not sure why you find this surprising.

So everyone is admitting there is intent, which is a large part of proving the claim.

Intent to have consensual sex doesn't prove sexual assault. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. That's the #1 defense in these cases, that it was consensual.

Why do you think there's a huge gap between someone going to a massage expecting sexual release and then committing what the law defines as an assault, namely forced touching, to gain such a release?

Seems to me it's a tiny gap, even smaller when you then consider the power gradient.

Well because w/o force, violence or coercion, it's very difficult to prove the assault occured. That's like saying Kraft committed sexual assault when all he was looking for was a happy ending based on Lulu saying he touched her hand with his penis.

 

[patman52]

I don't get why Mayfield agreed to give up $3.5m.

Because he wanted out and wanted carolina. Maybe they needed the space. I think that made a good first impression.

 

[venecol]

I also think that he probably did 3/4 of what he's been charged with.

But I think the Cleveland contract actually motivates him in the exact opposite direction. He is set for life. He can afford to pay everyone off, up front, and get it over with, at least with whomever will settle, even if their numbers are crazy.

The settlements were cheap. A year ago, 20 women or so were ready to settle for $100k ea. That's incredibly cheap compared to the >$10M he's already paid his attorney. Makes perfect sense to settle for multiple reasons, none of which is he doesn't think he can win in court.

 

[venecol]

BTW, I'm not defending Watson. He's an idiot. I'm more interested in how this NFL process plays out.

Of course, Goodell can play the he embarrassed the league/shield BS. But he has a problem when it says:



Based on this, Kraft was charged but not convicted of a crime, but there is credible evidence (way more than on Watson), that he engaged in conduct prohibited by the PCP. Unless the PCP allows players/owners to engage in soliciting prostitution. The evidence was there, crystal clear, even w/o the videos. Why? Because the cops redacted everything in the videos: he laid down, Mingbi proceeded to massage his penis, she wiped him off with a white towel after, he got dressed and paid Mingbi and Lulu $100 each. It was public record. So, why didn't the NFL punish Kraft at all, when owners are to be held to a HIGHER standard than the players. Goodell has a problem with this Judge imo.