One person's list of NE's all-time top five WRs

[Deus Irae]

You might not realize this but just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's wrong. His argument made perfect sense and is more valid than anything you've contributed to this thread.

1.) Why haven't they gotten around to your end run around your banning yet?

2.) The question is about the top 5 WRs. He was bringing up plays that weren't about WR. That's not valid, no matter how much you interject yourself into things.



Welker's a much better WR than Brown. Eyes show it. Numbers show it. The only WR in Patriots history that is in Welker's class is Morgan. Moss was a better talent, and some people will use that to say he's the best (a perfectly valid argument even if I view it a bit differently because of length of service), but he had a very short run with the team. Brown was with the team forever, but even his 3 peak years are less than an average (healthy) Welker season.

It is what it is.

 

[BSR]

You listed 5 plays. Of the 5 plays you listed, only two are actually catches. That should have told you how much of a reach you were trying to make with your argument.

You listed games that were either AFCCG or SB. I don't buy that those are the only "Big games", but let's take a look at your argument:

Welker has 18 catches for 163 yards and 0 TDs in his 2 SB Appearances. In 3 SB appearances, Brown had 16 catches for 182 yards and 0 TDs.

Welker has 21 catches for 225 yards and 2 TDs in his 3 AFCCG games. In 3 AFCCG appearances, Brown had 16 catches for 220 yards and 0 TDs.

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that Brown played HUGE in big games as if that sets him apart from WWW, because Welker's outplayed him there, too.

I don't watch football to recite stats and it doesn't matter to me if those memorable game changing plays aren't all catches. To me, that is parsing the definition of "best WR" to be meaningless. The fact is that he was a WR and made all those plays.

As for your claim that Welker outperformed Brown in Superbowls, I find that laughable. Brown made two instrumental catches on game winning drives in Superbowls. Are you seriously going to claim that you would want to swap those performances for one another? Its crazy.

I am also not trying to disparage Welker in all of this. I think he is a great WR and would love him to stay a Patriot. I could also see the argument that people are making of Welker being the greatest based on stats, but to me that is an empty title. To this point, the WR that has made the greatest impact on the success of the Patriots is Troy Brown. I believe that to be inarguable.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't watch football to recite stats and it doesn't matter to me if those memorable game changing plays aren't all catches. To me, that is parsing the definition of "best WR" to be meaningless. The fact is that he was a WR and made all those plays.

No, the fact is that he was a punt returner when he made the punt return, for example.

As for your claim that Welker outperformed Brown in Superbowls, I find that laughable.

Ehh..... The numbers make it pretty clear that Brown didn't outplay Welker in the SBs. Welker's numbers in 2 games match up with Brown's numbers in 3.

Brown made two instrumental catches on game winning drives in Superbowls. Are you seriously going to claim that you would want to swap those performances for one another? Its crazy.

In the 2011 SB, Welker had at least 2 plays in each scoring drive. He also had at least one play in each of the scoring drives in the 2007 game (1 play in the first drive and 3 in the second), and 3 of his 4 catches in those drives resulted in first downs, while the other was a completion on 1st down.

I am also not trying to disparage Welker in all of this. I think he is a great WR and would love him to stay a Patriot. I could also see the argument that people are making of Welker being the greatest based on stats, but to me that is an empty title. To this point, the WR that has made the greatest impact on the success of the Patriots is Troy Brown. I believe that to be inarguable.

It's not inarguable at all. Hell, if you want to look at the "big game" receivers, as you're putting it, Brown doesn't even beat out Branch from that era: 2 SB appearances (2003 and 2004), 21 catches, 276 yards, 1 TD, 1 SB MVP. Branch also had 3 catches for 45 yards in the 2011 SB, for that matter.

Branch's AFCCG/SB numbers: 34 catches, 494 yards, 2 TDs.... He's a better challenger to Welker's "Big game" play than is Brown.

Troy was a great Patriot, and he belongs in the pantheon for all his efforts, but this is about him as a WR, not an all around-contributor.

 

[BSR]

No, the fact is that he was a punt returner when he made the punt return, for example.

I don't see the point in separating his production. Its a by product of who he is and the way he contributes.

Ehh..... The numbers make it pretty clear that Brown didn't outplay Welker in the SBs. Welker's numbers in 2 games match up with Brown's numbers in 3.

In the 2011 SB, Welker had at least 2 plays in each scoring drive. He also had at least one play in each of the scoring drives in the 2007 game (1 play in the first drive and 3 in the second), and 3 of his 4 catches in those drives resulted in first downs, while the other was a completion on 1st down.

How many catches did Welker have in game winning SB drives? Its not like that is some small thing. Its the very same way that Brady developed his reputation.

I think you are confusing "big plays" as yard statistics and not meaningful successful plays that result in you winning the game. Patriots don't win superbowls without Troy Brown. Can't say the same about Welker.

It's not inarguable at all. Hell, if you want to look at the "big game" receivers, as you're putting it, Brown doesn't even beat out Branch from that era: 2 SB appearances (2003 and 2004), 21 catches, 276 yards, 1 TD, 1 SB MVP. Branch also had 3 catches for 45 yards in the 2011 SB, for that matter.

Branch's AFCCG/SB numbers: 34 catches, 494 yards, 2 TDs.... He's a better challenger to Welker's "Big game" play than is Brown.

I think he certainly has a better claim than Welker but then again I don't think he was here long enough to garner that award. Put it this way, if there was one player that this team could have done without and still had the same relative success, that player would be Welker.

 

[Helmet2Helmet]

1.) Why haven't they gotten around to your end run around your banning yet?

2.) The question is about the top 5 WRs. He was bringing up plays that weren't about WR. That's not valid, no matter how much you interject yourself into things.

What would I get banned for? People agree with me. Like I said, just because Deus Irae thinks something is wrong, trolling, or worth a ban doesn't make it so.

And they are completely valid points. Welker returns punts too. Brown beat him out there. Brown looked like he was lined up at receiver when he stripped that ball. Those points are completely relevant.

Look, it's pretty obvious we're going to have to agree to disagree. You think overall stats are the most important factor in evaluating a player. I don't, give me the guy who makes the clutch catch in the fourth over the guy who puts up great numbers and drops the most crucial catches.

 

[ivanvamp]

This is absolutely where the stats fall flat. There is no way anyone can claim that Welker has had more success in the Post season. 9 or 19 games is not large enough of a sample size to be relevant. When you dig deeper however you can create a laundry list of big plays Troy Brown made to win big games.

2001: Punt return for TD against Steelers
2001: Punt block and lateral that created TD against Steelers
2001: Key catch in the final drive to set up winning score in SB
2003: Key catch in final drive to set up winning score in SB
2006: Causing a fumble of an interception allowing Patriots to go on and beat SD

Those are off the top of my head. The guy made HUGE plays in big games. If this team is ever going to win again they'll need more people that can step up and generate those types of game changing plays.

The topic here isn't who is a better overall football player. It's who has been a better wide receiver for the Patriots. So, as Deus pointed out, three of these plays you mention have nothing whatsoever to do with this argument.

 

[ivanvamp]

How many catches did Welker have in game winning SB drives? Its not like that is some small thing. Its the very same way that Brady developed his reputation.

In SB 42, Welker had three important catches on what should have been a game winning drive. Not his fault the D gave up a TD in response.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think he certainly has a better claim than Welker but then again I don't think he was here long enough to garner that award. Put it this way, if there was one player that this team could have done without and still had the same relative success, that player would be Welker.

Ok, I don't know if you're going for the comedy angle or the insanity angle, but this is a showstopper right here, particularly in light of 2009 and BB's comments about it in the documentary.

 

[BSR]

In SB 42, Welker had three important catches on what should have been a game winning drive. Not his fault the D gave up a TD in response.

There was another drive after that, if you recall. Either you made the big plays to win or you didn't. Its like Vinatieri. If he makes the HOF its not going to be because of his overall numbers. It will be because of his memorable kicks in the post season and to win Superbowls.

 

[BSR]

Ok, I don't know if you're going for the comedy angle or the insanity angle, but this is a showstopper right here, particularly in light of 2009 and BB's comments about it in the documentary.

Wow...You and I agree on some things but when we disagree its a chasm. I really don't find that statement controversial and I don't think there is any BB said in 2009 to counter that since that 2009 team wasn't at all successful. Without Welker that 2009 team maybe goes 8-8 instead of 10-6. Without Troy Brown that 2001 team doesn't win the Superbowl. Which do you think is more meaningful?

 

[ivanvamp]

There was another drive after that, if you recall. Either you made the big plays to win or you didn't. Its like Vinatieri. If he makes the HOF its not going to be because of his overall numbers. It will be because of his memorable kicks in the post season and to win Superbowls.

So let's say a guy makes a spectacular catch to put his team up by four with three seconds left in the Super Bowl, giving him 12 rec for 185 yds and 3 scores. But on the ensuing squib kick the other team pulls a Cal-Stanford and runs it back for a TD.

Does the fact that the WR had a superlative day and a phenomenal catch that should have won the game get lessened because the team lost?

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow...You and I agree on some things but when we disagree its a chasm. I really don't find that statement controversial and I don't think there is any BB said in 2009 to counter that since that 2009 team wasn't at all successful. Without Welker that 2009 team maybe goes 8-8 instead of 10-6. Without Troy Brown that 2001 team doesn't win the Superbowl. Which do you think is more meaningful?

The problem with your claim is that, no offense, you're just guessing, which is all you can do. We simply have no idea how things would have played out without the players. The closest we have to certainty is BB's comments about the 2009 team and Welker/Moss. It's apparent from his comments that BB does not share your take on Welker.

And again, Welker's done it every year since he's been in New England. In his worst season in New England, coming off of ACL surgery, he still put up 86/848. Troy beat that catch total only twice, and that yardage total only 3 times, in his 15 seasons. In that 'down' season, Welker still managed to pull in 7 TDs, which is more than Brown ever had in a season. As a matter of fact, Welker has tied or beaten Brown's career high TD number (6) in four of his six seasons in New England. Furthermore, Welker's already got 38 receiving TDs in his career, while Brown only managed 31 receiving TDs in his 15 seasons.

And it's not as if we're talking about radically different WR styles here. Troy averaged only 0.2 ypc more than Welker has, and they were both mostly short aread receivers, so they're basically the same in terms of style, and Welker's just been better at it overall.

 

[BSR]

The problem with your claim is that, no offense, you're just guessing, which is all you can do. We simply have no idea how things would have played out without the players. The closest we have to certainty is BB's comments about the 2009 team and Welker/Moss. It's apparent from his comments that BB does not share your take on Welker.

And again, Welker's done it every year since he's been in New England. In his worst season in New England, coming off of ACL surgery, he still put up 86/848. Troy beat that catch total only twice, and that yardage total only 3 times, in his 15 seasons. In that 'down' season, Welker still managed to pull in 7 TDs, which is more than Brown ever had in a season. As a matter of fact, Welker has tied or beaten Brown's career high TD number (6) in four of his six seasons in New England. Furthermore, Welker's already got 38 receiving TDs in his career, while Brown only managed 31 receiving TDs in his 15 seasons.

And it's not as if we're talking about radically different WR styles here. Troy averaged only 0.2 ypc more than Welker has, and they were both mostly short aread receivers, so they're basically the same in terms of style, and Welker's just been better at it overall.

Its a fair point, and I understand your point of view. I guess I am just taking a less analytic and more qualitative view.

 

[BSR]

So let's say a guy makes a spectacular catch to put his team up by four with three seconds left in the Super Bowl, giving him 12 rec for 185 yds and 3 scores. But on the ensuing squib kick the other team pulls a Cal-Stanford and runs it back for a TD.

Does the fact that the WR had a superlative day and a phenomenal catch that should have won the game get lessened because the team lost?

Of course it does. You think making that catch makes him feel any better? In the end it was one catch and clearly wasn't enough. The stats are meaningless, it is a team sport. I realize that it is a totally unfair mindset because it is so dependent on the other players around him but that, in my opinion, is what makes football great.

In 2001 Brown, Law, Vrabel, Brady, Vinateri, et all did enough to win a superbowl. In 2011 Welker, Brady, Hernandez et all didn't. Its as simple as that.

 

[ivanvamp]

Of course it does. You think making that catch makes him feel any better? In the end it was one catch and clearly wasn't enough. The stats are meaningless, it is a team sport. I realize that it is a totally unfair mindset because it is so dependent on the other players around him but that, in my opinion, is what makes football great.

In 2001 Brown, Law, Vrabel, Brady, Vinateri, et all did enough to win a superbowl. In 2011 Welker, Brady, Hernandez et all didn't. Its as simple as that.

So in the scenario I painted, to which you responded with the above comments, what makes this hypothetical receiver better is whether his team's kickoff coverage team does its job in the last 3 seconds of the game, and what makes him worse is that his team's kickoff coverage team fails to do its job.

This is the argument you have just made. After having seen it put in these terms, is that what you really believe?

 

[Ring 6]

I don't watch football to recite stats and it doesn't matter to me if those memorable game changing plays aren't all catches. To me, that is parsing the definition of "best WR" to be meaningless. The fact is that he was a WR and made all those plays.

As for your claim that Welker outperformed Brown in Superbowls, I find that laughable. Brown made two instrumental catches on game winning drives in Superbowls. Are you seriously going to claim that you would want to swap those performances for one another? Its crazy.

I am also not trying to disparage Welker in all of this. I think he is a great WR and would love him to stay a Patriot. I could also see the argument that people are making of Welker being the greatest based on stats, but to me that is an empty title. To this point, the WR that has made the greatest impact on the success of the Patriots is Troy Brown. I believe that to be inarguable.

Branch is better than Brown by your definition

 

[Ring 6]

Of course it does. You think making that catch makes him feel any better? In the end it was one catch and clearly wasn't enough. The stats are meaningless, it is a team sport. I realize that it is a totally unfair mindset because it is so dependent on the other players around him but that, in my opinion, is what makes football great.

In 2001 Brown, Law, Vrabel, Brady, Vinateri, et all did enough to win a superbowl. In 2011 Welker, Brady, Hernandez et all didn't. Its as simple as that.

So Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino?

 

[Fencer]

Troy Brown is the best post season WR this team has ever had. In my opinion that makes him this team's greatest wide receiver. No other receiver has contributed more to this team's success...no one.

It's more accurate to say that Troy had the best postseason game a Patriots WR has ever had, namely Boxscore - New England Patriots vs. Pittsburgh Steelers, January 27, 2002 - The Football Database His receiving line is pretty good, and the two special team plays cement it.

More debatably, I'd say that year he had the best postseason a Patriots WR has ever had.

 

[RayClay]

Top receiver year after year, it's Stanley Morgan by a mile. Not even close.

 

[brdmaverick]

For those with gripes about Welker being listed over Brown I think that is more emtion that rationale. It's probably based on the fact that Brown spent his entire career with the Pats and literally worked his way from the bottom to the top of the depth chart over time.

Meanwhile, Welker came here as a covetted acquisition from another team and was a productive player from day one.

While I think that Welker is better and has been more productive, many find the Troy Brown story to be more compelling.