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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Snooky97, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The issue here seems to be that some interpret "active" to mean "healthy". Hightowers escalating snap count before injury shows a clear plan for him recovering to full game shape.
     

  2. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    As I understood it, the original issue was whether or not KVN took 100% of the D-snaps while HT was active. He did. If the original question was posed as "healthy", that's a different matter.

    In any case, KVN's snaps declined as HT's increased, but not significantly. My guess is that, if both had remained healthy through the season, their final snaps percentages would have been about equal. Roberts' snaps would have declined significantly, McCourty would likely have played more coverage and less in-the-box.
     
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  3. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    I don't even know what the discussion is here.

    The backup TEs are just as important at pass-protection than the LT?

    What is going on here?
     
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  4. DW Toys

    DW Toys In the Starting Line-Up

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    I agree. Who is your best available option at TE if Gronk retires?......
    Bennett. We won a SB with him. 6 targets, 5 catches for 62 Yards and he blocks. Might be better than a FA or Draft pick.
    DW Toys
     
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  5. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Here is the post of mine you quoted including the post I was replying to.

    [​IMG]

    KVN's snaps declining could be gameplan related as well but who really knows but BB and Patricia. What we do know and shouldn't pretend is that KVN is an equally effective player for the Patriots as Hightower and should be valued as such. I don't think we we see any do or die game in which Hightower and Van Noy are both healthy (able to take 100% of the snaps if needed) and Van Noy is on the field for more of them than Hightower.

    Roberts snaps declining significantly and (chung?) taking less snaps in the box speak to KVN's versatility as a player as well as Roberts severe limitations (2 down player). Both of these things also speak to lack of versatility at linebacker if Roberts is forced into a bigger role if one of KVN, Hightower or Shea go down. All the more reason to add a couple more capable bodies ;)
     
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obviously LT is the priority. We should use $10M in cap money to sign Solder and one of our other OTs.

    There is no reason to fire several players in the next week or so because LT is the priority. Just re-sign our OT's and we'll see where we are.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  7. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    I was responding to someone who advised letting Solder go to keep Bennett and Allen.
     
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  8. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Is pass-pro exclusively the responsibility of the OL?

    Characterizing Bennett and Allen strictly as "backups" - like spare tires that are only really useful when your "starting" tire gets a flat - is misleading. Even when Gronk is on the field, they both play roles that are crucial to the success of a significant percentage of both pass plays and run plays. The OL certainly doesn't do all of that completely on their own - not even Solder.

    There are countless examples of Allen executing a key block on a pass-rusher that allowed Brady to complete a pass to Gronk. Gronk gets the camera's attention, but he doesn't get the glory unless Allen does his job.

    And, when a starting tackle is out of the lineup with an injury, the specific, high-quality, blocking skills of Bennet and Allen become even more important to supporting/assisting the substitute tackle in pass-pro.

    So, yeah, high-quality-blocking TEs are pretty close in importance.
     
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  9. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The post you quoted wasn't visible to me.

    BTW - I 100% agree that the LB group (2nd-level group) needs greater quantity of capable bodies.

    McCourty's role was different in 2017, likely due to the lack of available, healthy, 2nd-level defender bodies. He played much closer to the line much more often after HT went to IR, while Harmon took most of the deep-safety assignments.

    As to KVN being a "less effective" player than HT - not, I don't know that.

    First of all, KVN's total career NFL snaps on defense (including his 2.5 years in DET) are just slightly great than what HT might contribute in one healthy season. Even now, he has only 1.5 seasons under his belt in the Pats' system. I'll withhold judgement on KVN until after I've seen whether or not he's been able to build on his 2017 experience (same with Roberts).

    Secondly, while both are versatile, the skill sets aren't identical - they merely overlap in some aspects. With a completely healthy LB group, I'd guess that they could be "equally effective", but in different roles - the tandem being greater than either player individually.

    Also, realistically, had it been KVN out for the season, and HT out there alone with Roberts, I really don't think that HT would have been significantly more "effective" than KVN was in the same egregiously "understaffed" circumstances. AFAIK, no LB possesses the "talent" to be in two places at once.
     
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  10. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    The LT is most often totally alone on the blind-side against the best pass rusher of the other team. He rarely gets help. Good blocking TEs are not hard to find. Top LTs are very hard.
     
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  11. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    And the plays when the LT is not totally alone, one-on-one with the opponent's best pass-rusher still count, too. If those fail because the team doesn't have a solid blocking TE (or an RB in the backfield who's very good in pass-pro), the team is just as screwed as it is on an LT whiff.
     
  12. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Report: Cowboys will use franchise tag on DeMarcus Lawrence
     
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  13. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    The same myth people tell about any position.

    The reality is that if you want a cheap blocking TE you will have to draft and let him develop for at least a year to understand pro scheme protections, technique and fill out his body to have enough strength to reliably block against NFL level players. And on top of all of that you have to be lucky for him to understand it all and make that jump otherwise that player can join a long list of failed rookie TEs in the NFL.

    Otherwise good luck finding someone who is better value than Allen (if he restructures to 3-3.5m) in a FA market where players like Trey Burton are rumored to get 6m APY contracts.
     
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  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    fair enough
     
  15. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Potential candidate for an RBBC spot on the Pats:

    Zach Zenner (6'0"/220, age 26) is an RFA with the Lions who reportedly won't tender him.

    He's been a fairly significant ST contributor the past two seasons. In 2016, when Ameer Abdullah was injured, Zenner filled in as the #2/#3 RB (along with Dwayne Washington) behind Theo Riddick. Zenner produced 530 yards from scrimmage and 4 TDs in 293 total snaps - 334 yds rushing (3.8 ypa) and 196 receiving (78% catch rate, 10.9 ypc).

    Keep in mind that Detroit had the 2nd worst run-blocking unit in the NFL in 2016, and the worst in 2017 (the Pats had the best in 2017).

    The 2018 low-round RFA tender is $1.9M, so it's likely that Zenner would be significantly cheaper than even that - possibly ST pay scale ($1M or less).
     
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  16. UptownPatsFan

    UptownPatsFan Standin' Pat

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    Plus, the DET pipeline should be even more fluid due to the fact that Matty P is now their HC. I likey :D
     
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  17. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Not a fan of Zenner.
     
  18. maineman209

    maineman209 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Why not?
     
  19. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Feels he's a downgrade to both Burkhead and Lewis.
    His ceiling seems low I'd rather kick the tires on a back like Hill out of Cincy
     
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  20. UptownPatsFan

    UptownPatsFan Standin' Pat

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    But he’ll command more $$$. For sure. Also, he doesn’t play ST.
     
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