O’Brien is going to demand accountability of the receivers

[Kasmir]

You mean the same coaching staff - aka Bill - who had faith in Phatt Matt & Judge Joey?

"Judge Joey" that's hilarious. You have a real gift...

 

[Huckleberry1]

I suppose that's a typical IBWT response. I must be a lunatic thinking all these WR draft picks by Belichick sucked:

Bethel Johnson (2nd rd)
Chad Jackson (2nd rd)
Brandon Tate (3rd rd)
Taylor Price (3rd rd)
Aaron Dobson (2nd rd)
Josh Boyce (4th rd)
N'Keal Harry (1st rd)
Tyquan Thornton (2nd rd)

That's only 4th round or earlier. Results aren't any better in lower rounds. The one exception being Julian Edelman who was the 11th player chosen by the Patriots in that draft so he was a major flier.

Obviously it doesn't mean Belichick is a complete louse and a bad head coach. It means what it clearly indicates, he can't draft a WR to save his life. Fact. Tell me how I'm wrong given the above putrid list.

Great, now go look at the results of the other 31 teams for the past 20 years, and what success it brought them? What you will find is that they all have tons of misses. And the only 2 long term studies of drafting league wide had the Patriots in the top 2, and it brought them more success than anyone else, as well as more All Pro’s. One of the study’s them had the Ravens in the top 2, and you know where Ozzie Newsome got his scouting and drafting model from ? You guessed it, Bill Belichick. You don’t create the longest Dynasty in NFL history, and the only one in the era of free agency, by sucking at your job. And those who think you do are the true idiots

 

[DaBruinz]

I didn't see him getting manhandled any more than any other receiver. What I did see is him not knowing how to work the sidelines and back of the endzone repeatedly and when he was wide open and plenty of field in front of him slow up and turn around to catch the ball when he could actually catch it cleaner in stride.

Here are a couple of examples I could find.

Looking at the play against the Raiders, I'm not sure that he didn't know where the sideline was. Here is the point where both his feet seem to touch the ground in bounds. He just hadn't made the full catch yet. The ball is actually upfield towards the defender, so Thorton is having twist his body and reach for it, which delays the catch. The ball actually seems to be a split second late. That being said:

What I noticed immediately is that Mac doesn't throw the ball until he's seen Thornton out of his peripheral vision making his cut.

The other thing I noticed is Thornton's route was weird. He starts off on the outside of the numbers, runs as if he's meant to go up the seam and then rounds back out towards the sideline. Now this could have been why the ball seemed to be late and upfield.

I think that people who have said that Thornton was thinking too much are right and this play is a good example. If you watch Thornton, his feet are hitting on approx. 2 yard strides up to the 45 yard line. But then his left foot comes down on the 44. His next step is when he makes his cut off his right foot at the 42 with a poor head fake and he brushes against the defender. It looks to me like Thornton hesitates because he's not sure if he could get by the defender without making contact that would be considered OPI. As such, he makes his cut early and then tries to get to where he's supposed to be by going on an angle. Either he's there early or the Ball is late and behind him.

Because the defender is playing with INSIDE leverage, I think Thornton should have run to the 37yd line and THEN made the hard cut towards the sideline edging closer to the 36 as he went.. I'm still not sure that the ball wouldn't have been upfield and possibly even intercepted had Thornton run the route properly since it puts Thornton in a different position than in the video and I don't have access to high tech AI sims.

I honestly don't know what to make of the route other than it's a cluster-f**k to begin with.

 

[Huckleberry1]

He already played and produced in limited opportunities in a seriously dysfunctional offense.

History doesn’t determine the future, the Pats have drafted WR less than most (all?) teams in the league over the last two decades and the majority of those picks were late round dart throws.

They also found Super Bowl MVP Deion Branch, solid possession WR David Givens, slot stud Julian Edelman, kick returner Brandon Tate, special teams ace Matt Slater, Malcolm Mitchell, Braxton Berrios and Jakobi Meyers.

Perception is largely driven by the few times they took a WR in the first two rounds there were busts (Johnson, Jackson, Dobson, Harry) but the truth is they don’t draft WR often… so the pool has been small. WR has the highest failure rate among all offensive draft picks… they fail a lot on every team.

I’m sure you already realize this, but go to any fan base and you will find the Crawhammer’s, Captain Stone’s, Triumph’s and their likes *****ing, crying, whining, and trashing those drafting for not doing what they would have done, when most haven’t left their houses long enough to coach a Pee Wee team to a Championship.Then again they probably wouldn’t have anyways, as they would have been so focused on the dregs they got saddled with to actually coach the poor kids up. The miserable cynics will always be just that, but at least their personal karma never lets them enjoy it, other than to squeak out a meek little, “ I was with them all the way,” when their team does win it all. And everyone else knows they are completely full of **** when they hear those squeaks.

 

[State]

In 2022 they were ranked 25th in scoring, near top of the league in penalties and pre-snap penalties under Patricia.

Actually, I referenced yesterday that the Patriots ranked 17 in scoring in 2022, the second oldest offense, and 28 in total first downs. Just pathetic.

The Patriots offensive line ended the 2022 season as it lived

The Patriots finished the year as PFF’s 11th-ranked offensive line.

www.patspulpit.com

Enter 35-year-old Riley Reiff. We may be the oldest this year.

That’s why some of us were pounding the table to switch to drafting offense by the third round. And certainly not trade up for a kicker.

 

[State]

And the cleats up slides need to disappear forever.

You know there’s a bounty out on him, right? Mac Jones is considered a dirty player. One of the dirtiest. Not going to end well.

 

[State]

"Judge Joey" that's hilarious. You have a real gift...

He’s the Moniker Maven. My favorite is Myles of Space Bryant.

He’s got quite a few in his redraft, which is Howie Rosemanesque in its brilliance, that made me laugh out loud. I almost never do that.

 

[Triumph]

I like it.

When the pass is 2 feet too short its the WRs fault. Sounds like BOB posts on this website everyday.

 

[Wozzy]

Actually, I referenced yesterday that the Patriots ranked 17 in scoring in 2022, the second oldest offense, and 28 in total first downs. Just pathetic.

Points per drive is a better and more accurate stat to judge offense or defense, rather than total points.

If a punt returner or DB takes one to the house or a defender picks up a fumble scoop and score, it gets lumped into total points scored but they clearly weren’t scored by the offense. PFR provides points per drive, which separates points that only the offense scored.

Enter 35-year-old Riley Reiff. We may be the oldest this year.

That’s why some of us were pounding the table to switch to drafting offense by the third round. And certainly not trade up for a kicker.

They were among the oldest teams in the league when they were winning rings. They signed Reiff but also Anderson who is talented and young, along with Sidy Sow who can probably play tackle.

I don’t get the hand wringing. They have good OT options… kicker they needed badly, this isn’t fantasy football.

 

[Huckleberry1]

You know there’s a bounty out on him, right? Mac Jones is considered a dirty player. One of the dirtiest. Not going to end well.

I don’t know if there is a bounty out on him, but he has done some dirty ****, and it was unnecessary and stupid. He needs to cut it out completely. He’s not “ one of the dirtiest” players in the league, but he has earned the tag as a dirty player. Imo we don’t see most of the dirty **** that goes on, as it’s done in the piles, what we see is the obvious dirty plays, head hunting across the middle etc. one of the biggest problems I had with Jones last season was the impression I got from him that he had “ made it.” The stupid “ Pro Bowl” spot he got made him think he was elite, when in truth he hadnt don’t **** yet. He needs a complete reset from that demeanor, and even though I’m not a big fan of O’Brien he may actually be the right coach to impose that upon him. He was willing to get into it with Brady when he was at the height of his play, so he’s certainly not going to put up with Jones preening when he walks into the end zone untouched, and then starts a cutesy dance like it was all his doing, Jones needs high standards, and his feet held to the fire continually, and if that means competition for the job, and getting benched then so be it. If he can handle that, and there is some prior evidence that he can, then it will help turn him into a much better QB for the future:

 

[aluminum seats]

The thing with Brown, or any coach, is that coaches need coaches too. Particularly former players. How do you communicate your points? How do you structure drills? How much 121 time do guys need?

In a good business when there's new training for the staff there should also be "coach the coach" training. I'm guessing there was approximately zero of that last year.

 

[captain stone]

"Judge Joey" that's hilarious. You have a real gift...

Thanks, though I wasn’t the first to use it… Can’t remember who was, unfortunately…

 

[crawhammer]

He already played and produced in limited opportunities in a seriously dysfunctional offense.

Tyquan (66%) had a much higher snap% than Bourne (44%) and similar to Parker (68%). He was considerably outplayed by both and he finished with a much lower catch%: Bourne (72.9%), Parker (66.0%), and Tyquan (48.9%).

Tyquan had more opportunities than he should have and he finished with underwhelming production.

History doesn’t determine the future, the Pats have drafted WR less than most (all?) teams in the league over the last two decades and the majority of those picks were late round dart throws.

That's an incorrect statement. As the Patriots GM, Belichick has drafted the same number of WRs in the 1st or 2nd round as the 7th round (6). In the 3rd through 6th round, he's drafted 2 WRs in each.

They also found Super Bowl MVP Deion Branch, solid possession WR David Givens, slot stud Julian Edelman, kick returner Brandon Tate, special teams ace Matt Slater, Malcolm Mitchell, Braxton Berrios and Jakobi Meyers.

Julian is a major player development success story. Jakobi was an UDFA and I was firmly in his fan club but for some reason BB thought he was expendable after last season. Branch worked with Brady, he was ordinary with others, and overall his career was mediocre. He gets bonus points for a handful of very good postseason games including SB 38 & SB 39. Givens had a TD reception in 7 straight postseason games, that's impressive, but outside of the NEP fanbase, I don't think anyone knows who he is. Mitchell had a 14-game career. Special termers aren't worth talking about.

Great, now go look at the results of the other 31 teams for the past 20 years, and what success it brought them? What you will find is that they all have tons of misses. And the only 2 long term studies of drafting league wide had the Patriots in the top 2, and it brought them more success than anyone else, as well as more All Pro’s. One of the study’s them had the Ravens in the top 2, and you know where Ozzie Newsome got his scouting and drafting model from ? You guessed it, Bill Belichick. You don’t create the longest Dynasty in NFL history, and the only one in the era of free agency, by sucking at your job. And those who think you do are the true idiots

I'm not doing your research for you. There's a ton of WR talent strewn about the league right now. They got there through the draft but somehow the Patriots have found 0.

That all pro bit is a joke too, it accounts for 8 ST players, so like who cares?

go to any fan base and you will find the Crawhammer’s, Captain Stone’s, Triumph’s and their likes *****ing, crying, whining, and trashing those drafting for not doing what they would have done, when most haven’t left their houses long enough to coach a Pee Wee team to a Championship.Then again they probably wouldn’t have anyways, as they would have been so focused on the dregs they got saddled with to actually coach the poor kids up

Do you have any kids? Been around their sports? You don't know what we're doing outside of this miniscule portion of our lives on this forum so you sound like a jackass.

The miserable cynics will always be just that, but at least their personal karma never lets them enjoy it, other than to squeak out a meek little, “ I was with them all the way,” when their team does win it all. And everyone else knows they are completely full of **** when they hear those squeaks.

Oh brother. More jackassery.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Tyquan (66%) had a much higher snap% than Bourne (44%) and similar to Parker (68%). He was considerably outplayed by both and he finished with a much lower catch%: Bourne (72.9%), Parker (66.0%), and Tyquan (48.9%).

Tyquan had more opportunities than he should have and he finished with underwhelming production.


That's an incorrect statement. As the Patriots GM, Belichick has drafted the same number of WRs in the 1st or 2nd round as the 7th round (6). In the 3rd through 6th round, he's drafted 2 WRs in each.


Julian is a major player development success story. Jakobi was an UDFA and I was firmly in his fan club but for some reason BB thought he was expendable after last season. Branch worked with Brady, he was ordinary with others, and overall his career was mediocre. He gets bonus points for a handful of very good postseason games including SB 38 & SB 39. Givens had a TD reception in 7 straight postseason games, that's impressive, but outside of the NEP fanbase, I don't think anyone knows who he is. Mitchell had a 14-game career. Special termers aren't worth talking about.


I'm not doing your research for you. There's a ton of WR talent strewn about the league right now. They got there through the draft but somehow the Patriots have found 0.

That all pro bit is a joke too, it accounts for 8 ST players, so like who cares?


Do you have any kids? Been around their sports? You don't know what we're doing outside of this miniscule portion of our lives on this forum so you sound like a jackass.


Oh brother. More jackassery.

Oh brother, more misery. And my response to you merely reflects the way most here feel about the incessant negativity you and your fellow miserable bring to this forum. You are some honest broker of truth, you are a grievance seeking missile.

 

[Real fan 02]

BB seems to value loyalty over talent. It's a pattern of behavior. I mean, there's a reason Judge still has a job on this team.

And a dam promotion at that!!

 

[Wozzy]

Tyquan (66%) had a much higher snap% than Bourne (44%) and similar to Parker (68%). He was considerably outplayed by both and he finished with a much lower catch%: Bourne (72.9%), Parker (66.0%), and Tyquan (48.9%).

Tyquan had more opportunities than he should have and he finished with underwhelming production.

The offense with Patricia was a joke in 2022. Somehow you guys keep forgetting that... or underselling it at least.

That's an incorrect statement. As the Patriots GM, Belichick has drafted the same number of WRs in the 1st or 2nd round as the 7th round (6). In the 3rd through 6th round, he's drafted 2 WRs in each.

I said the Patriots drafted the WR position less than just about every team team in the NFL over the last two decades. Factual.

Also what you're saying is BB has drafted 14 players from the third round on, versus 6 players in the first two rounds... how is that "wrong?" Moreover that's 20 WR's over 23 years of drafting... .8 WR's per draft class... not many.

They prefer vets and rightly so... history has shown WR's fail at a higher rate than any offensive player in the draft.

 

[Kasmir]

The offense with Patricia was a joke in 2022. Somehow you guys keep forgetting that... or underselling it at least.

I said the Patriots drafted the WR position less than just about every team team in the NFL over the last two decades. Factual.

Also what you're saying is BB has drafted 14 players from the third round on, versus 6 players in the first two rounds... how is that "wrong?" Moreover that's 20 WR's over 23 years of drafting... .8 WR's per draft class... not many.

They prefer vets and rightly so... history has shown WR's fail at a higher rate than any offensive player in the draft.

Especially laughable is the numerology arguments used by trolls like Crawdaddy. So Bill has a particular inability to recognize WR (or DB) talent in the 2nd round? What possible mechanism is there for that? I don't know if they are that ignorant of probability and statistics or just willful or both.
Why not say BB is great at picking 2nd round TE's from Arizona (Gronkowski) but terrible at picking 1st round WR's from Arizona State (N'Keal). Such idiocy.

 

[patfanken]

Looking at the play against the Raiders, I'm not sure that he didn't know where the sideline was. Here is the point where both his feet seem to touch the ground in bounds. He just hadn't made the full catch yet. The ball is actually upfield towards the defender, so Thorton is having twist his body and reach for it, which delays the catch. The ball actually seems to be a split second late. That being said:

What I noticed immediately is that Mac doesn't throw the ball until he's seen Thornton out of his peripheral vision making his cut.

The other thing I noticed is Thornton's route was weird. He starts off on the outside of the numbers, runs as if he's meant to go up the seam and then rounds back out towards the sideline. Now this could have been why the ball seemed to be late and upfield.

I think that people who have said that Thornton was thinking too much are right and this play is a good example. If you watch Thornton, his feet are hitting on approx. 2 yard strides up to the 45 yard line. But then his left foot comes down on the 44. His next step is when he makes his cut off his right foot at the 42 with a poor head fake and he brushes against the defender. It looks to me like Thornton hesitates because he's not sure if he could get by the defender without making contact that would be considered OPI. As such, he makes his cut early and then tries to get to where he's supposed to be by going on an angle. Either he's there early or the Ball is late and behind him.

Because the defender is playing with INSIDE leverage, I think Thornton should have run to the 37yd line and THEN made the hard cut towards the sideline edging closer to the 36 as he went.. I'm still not sure that the ball wouldn't have been upfield and possibly even intercepted had Thornton run the route properly since it puts Thornton in a different position than in the video and I don't have access to high tech AI sims.

I honestly don't know what to make of the route other than it's a cluster-f**k to begin with.

It's probably my fault. Well actually it IS my fault. But we have now entered the "over analysing" phase of this discussion. Thornton DIDN'T run a crisp route, and it was a good throw, but not a great one, and the result was he was out of bounds by about 2 INCHES. Yeah I know that football IS a game of inches, but nothing that isn't fixable.

Hey, you can pick out dozens of plays where some DB got the better of Randy Moss over the years. We forget sometimes that most of the time receivers are covered pretty well. 4 guys go out on a route combinations an at worst 3 are covered. The DB's win too. AND then there are the times receivers are covered PERFECTLY and the guy catches the ball anyways.

In the end it is STILL a look at a guy in his rookie year. Until we get a look at him in TC we won't know anything about him. Last year is OVER. We got a different team who will have to build a whole new chemistry that will likely have around 33% of personnel turnover. It will be running a new offense, for 2 brand new coaches. Fortunately they will be using the same language.

I have NO idea what the results are,. I have absolutely NO expectations. All I will look for early in the season is 1. Are they competing for 4 quarters. 2. Are their personnel substitutions running smoothly. 3. Are the number of unforced penalties down? In other words do they look like the "smart" football team we became used to for so many years and now took for granted. Well it is HARD to be that kind of team. It was amazing that we WERE that team for decades. And that is why it is so GRATING to us when we don't see it.

This is going to be a team that will NEED to be "smart". Over the years we have kind of forgotten the many wins we got because the OTHER team wasn't as "smart" as we were. THEY had the TO or penalty that changed the game and was the difference between winning and losing.

We will play 17 games in the regular season and my guess in about 13 of them it will be a 1 score game sometime in the 4th quarter. In our first superbowl run, the Pats were 5-5 coming off a loss to the Rams. If we are playing "smart" and are 5-5 going into thanksgiving, I'll be OK. Patience my friends, Patience

 

[Joker]

Nice of Goondell to match us up with the Super Bowl runnerup, Philly, in our first game...then Miami. If I hated the Patriots like a one eyed cyclopean moron such as the Goon, I'd also add an away game in Germany just to really disrupt the Pats season with 8 hour air travel each way. Oh wait...he did!

 

[SlowGettingUp]

It's probably my fault. Well actually it IS my fault. But we have now entered the "over analysing" phase of this discussion. Thornton DIDN'T run a crisp route, and it was a good throw, but not a great one, and the result was he was out of bounds by about 2 INCHES. Yeah I know that football IS a game of inches, but nothing that isn't fixable.

Hey, you can pick out dozens of plays where some DB got the better of Randy Moss over the years. We forget sometimes that most of the time receivers are covered pretty well. 4 guys go out on a route combinations an at worst 3 are covered. The DB's win too. AND then there are the times receivers are covered PERFECTLY and the guy catches the ball anyways.

In the end it is STILL a look at a guy in his rookie year. Until we get a look at him in TC we won't know anything about him. Last year is OVER. We got a different team who will have to build a whole new chemistry that will likely have around 33% of personnel turnover. It will be running a new offense, for 2 brand new coaches. Fortunately they will be using the same language.

I have NO idea what the results are,. I have absolutely NO expectations. All I will look for early in the season is 1. Are they competing for 4 quarters. 2. Are their personnel substitutions running smoothly. 3. Are the number of unforced penalties down? In other words do they look like the "smart" football team we became used to for so many years and now took for granted. Well it is HARD to be that kind of team. It was amazing that we WERE that team for decades. And that is why it is so GRATING to us when we don't see it.

This is going to be a team that will NEED to be "smart". Over the years we have kind of forgotten the many wins we got because the OTHER team wasn't as "smart" as we were. THEY had the TO or penalty that changed the game and was the difference between winning and losing.

We will play 17 games in the regular season and my guess in about 13 of them it will be a 1 score game sometime in the 4th quarter. In our first superbowl run, the Pats were 5-5 coming off a loss to the Rams. If we are playing "smart" and are 5-5 going into thanksgiving, I'll be OK. Patience my friends, Patience

You can make the argument that Thornton is going to be the receiver that most benefits from scheme improvements that gets him away from press coverage and into more winning foot races. O'Brien can put him in motion, put him in stacked sets, more play-action, etc. The lack of play-action last year increased the level of difficulty for all receivers.