O’Brien is going to demand accountability of the receivers

[Wozzy]

Thornton's biggest issue is he looks like a boy among men... literally. Physique isn't coachable. We'll see what he looks like with 20 added pounds of muscle but until then I'm sticking with he's too slim to compete with NFL DBs.

So you're saying Jameson Williams can't compete in the NFL... he was the same exact size leaving college?

Devonta Smith was a featherweight 170 pounds leaving school, he's averaged 1000+ yards receiving for two years now.

Thornton can certainly get stronger, looks like he has already... twenty pounds is pretty extreme.

 

[patfanken]

Nah, the first play hit Thornton in bounds and he didn't get both feet down. We see plays like this all the time and it is the WR's responsibility to drag the foot.

And the second play Thornton is running a seam route with no one around him or between him and the endzone. He slowed down on the route when he should have kept running and caught that in stride. Thornton was wrong on that play. Jones read the play right. Thornton read it wrong.

Since I think I was the guy who started the Brown "bad look" thing, I found the conversation interesting in that it focused on two lines of thought. There was the "Brown sucks" category, and the "it's not his fault" group. Pretty standard stuff these days.

But I found the Thornton clip VERY interesting. What I saw last year was a receiver who ran a blazing 4.2 at the combine and for the entire season I saw only ONE example of him using that speed and that was a RUNNING play (for a TD)

Now as a former coach who NEVER actually coached receivers in individual groups, I saw a couple of things from that clip that I would like to see him vastly improve on this TC.

1. In the first clip, besides getting his feet down, he also rounded his route. In an ideal situation you want the receiver not just make a straight cut to the sideline, you want him coming BACK to the ball a bit. In this clip Thornton starts to make his cut but you can see him make the cut at the 41 and catch the ball at the 43. He wasted 2 steps rounding his break. He DID do a good job slanting inside for a possible cross to set up his break, but his footwork was sloppy. Again in an ideal world you want him to make his cut at the 41 and catch it at the 40 coming back toward the QB

The other point I would make to him would be to get off the LOS quicker. Compare him to whoever was in the slot getting off the LOS. I would remind him he's a 4.2 guy EVERY day and he's got to look like one. He can't stutter step off the LOS when he doesn't have anyone on him. EXPLODE off the LOS (BTW the other boundary receiver was also a bit slow of the LOS, but whomever he was he was MUCH quicker into his route (the crossing one once he did get going). Everything Thornton did on this route made me feel like he was THINKING too much about what he was supposed to do, rather than just "running" it. If you know what I mean.

The 2nd clip, again you see useless stutter steps for a guy who is clearly NOT in any tight man technique and then kind of wanders into the seam as opposed to doing it purposely getting into the hole in the coverage.

My guess is part of the problem lies with the fact he played in that REALLY wide open passing offense down in Baylor down in the big 12 where EVERYONE throws for 400 yds each game, and the kind of strict disciplined route running the Pats use, is VERY new to him. Now it also didn't help that he missed significant time and the hundreds of reps he missed while he was out. (not to mention the coaching mess) AND he was a ROOKIE and all the problems that comes with moving up a significant level.

What I HOPE to see, when I go to TC are these 2 main things. Is he quicker off the LOS. Are his cuts explosive and purposeful. Of course I also what to see what he does against tight man coverage. Is he getting off the LOS and beating it. Hopefully he added a few pounds of muscle and has benefitted from his very meh first season.

And FINALLY as to Troy Brown, he is a coach, and a coach is going to be subject to criticism. It is simply a part of the job. Coaching is ALWAYS going to be a results operation. There are NO excuses. Your players execute or they don't (actually sometimes there really ARE excuses, but that's really not in the job description) Coaches ARE teachers, and it REALLY really fun to teach this sport regardless of the level. But you know going in that when things are going well, it is ALL about the players. And when things go bad, it is YOUR fault and you work to get better. To figure out what you have to do you make your players better. Is it different drills? Is it HOW you are explaining it to them? OR is it something else that will make it easier for your players to be better. Obviously there is not one way to do it. All your players are individuals who respond differently to the message you are trying to get across. BUT when you have a group that starts to ALL pull together and they get rewarded for all that hard work with a win, there is NO better environment to be a part of.

.....AND I am rambling again,

 

[Chevy]

Since I think I was the guy who started the Brown "bad look" thing, I found the conversation interesting in that it focused on two lines of thought. There was the "Brown sucks" category, and the "it's not his fault" group. Pretty standard stuff these days.

But I found the Thornton clip VERY interesting. What I saw last year was a receiver who ran a blazing 4.2 at the combine and for the entire season I saw only ONE example of him using that speed and that was a RUNNING play (for a TD)

Now as a former coach who NEVER actually coached receivers in individual groups, I saw a couple of things from that clip that I would like to see him vastly improve on this TC.

1. In the first clip, besides getting his feet down, he also rounded his route. In an ideal situation you want the receiver not just make a straight cut to the sideline, you want him coming BACK to the ball a bit. In this clip Thornton starts to make his cut but you can see him make the cut at the 41 and catch the ball at the 43. He wasted 2 steps rounding his break. He DID do a good job slanting inside for a possible cross to set up his break, but his footwork was sloppy. Again in an ideal world you want him to make his cut at the 41 and catch it at the 40 coming back toward the QB

The other point I would make to him would be to get off the LOS quicker. Compare him to whoever was in the slot getting off the LOS. I would remind him he's a 4.2 guy EVERY day and he's got to look like one. He can't stutter step off the LOS when he doesn't have anyone on him. EXPLODE off the LOS (BTW the other boundary receiver was also a bit slow of the LOS, but whomever he was he was MUCH quicker into his route (the crossing one once he did get going). Everything Thornton did on this route made me feel like he was THINKING too much about what he was supposed to do, rather than just "running" it. If you know what I mean.

The 2nd clip, again you see useless stutter steps for a guy who is clearly NOT in any tight man technique and then kind of wanders into the seam as opposed to doing it purposely getting into the hole in the coverage.

My guess is part of the problem lies with the fact he played in that REALLY wide open passing offense down in Baylor down in the big 12 where EVERYONE throws for 400 yds each game, and the kind of strict disciplined route running the Pats use, is VERY new to him. Now it also didn't help that he missed significant time and the hundreds of reps he missed while he was out. (not to mention the coaching mess) AND he was a ROOKIE and all the problems that comes with moving up a significant level.

What I HOPE to see, when I go to TC are these 2 main things. Is he quicker off the LOS. Are his cuts explosive and purposeful. Of course I also what to see what he does against tight man coverage. Is he getting off the LOS and beating it. Hopefully he added a few pounds of muscle and has benefitted from his very meh first season.

And FINALLY as to Troy Brown, he is a coach, and a coach is going to be subject to criticism. It is simply a part of the job. Coaching is ALWAYS going to be a results operation. There are NO excuses. Your players execute or they don't (actually sometimes there really ARE excuses, but that's really not in the job description) Coaches ARE teachers, and it REALLY really fun to teach this sport regardless of the level. But you know going in that when things are going well, it is ALL about the players. And when things go bad, it is YOUR fault and you work to get better. To figure out what you have to do you make your players better. Is it different drills? Is it HOW you are explaining it to them? OR is it something else that will make it easier for your players to be better. Obviously there is not one way to do it. All your players are individuals who respond differently to the message you are trying to get across. BUT when you have a group that starts to ALL pull together and they get rewarded for all that hard work with a win, there is NO better environment to be a part of.

.....AND I am rambling again,

Ramble on ... It was a good read. But, if I may sum up for you, what you're saying is:

 

[Jlaff]

they are pros

shouldn't accountability be demanded of all, all the time?

The original post serves as another brick in the narrative that little blame should be shouldered by Mac for last year.

The obvious implication of the original post is that the receivers last year weren't being held accountable, which is preposterous.

 

[Huckleberry1]

But the jump ball was only one facet of Randy's skillset. He could separate, change direction, one hand it, and flat-out burn nearly any defender. And he tended to use those varied skills at the right time.

Moss is the greatest WR I have ever seen. Rice will likely hold the GOAT tag because of his achievements. But like Barry Sanders in the running back discussion, Moss could do things no other WR could do. I suppose it’s different interpretations of the same question, but that’s how I see it.

 

[DaBruinz]

BB seems to value loyalty over talent. It's a pattern of behavior. I mean, there's a reason Judge still has a job on this team.

While I don't understand why Judge still has a job, we don't know what happened behind the scenes. For all we know, during their One-n-One end of season meeting, they could have had a heart to heart with Judge issuing a Mea Culpa apology to BB and asking to stay on in whatever role BB deemed fit. Hence the Special Teams Advisor position. We just don't know.

We only have tidbits that came from the media after the fact. Pretty sure that no one here knew that BB had taken over Play-calling on offense at one point. Pretty sure no fans/media knew that Judge had been relieved of his QBC duties until it was announced in that end-of-season article.

So, while there were issues with the receivers last year, (WR, RB & TE), we don't know WHERE those issues stemmed from. We don't know if Patricia or Judge or Both were undermining Troy with the WR or if Troy was the issue. The fact that BB didn't make WHOLESALE changes amongst the Offensive staff and just brought BO'B and Klemm should tell everyone where a majority of the issue was believed to be. The fact that BB gave Troy the responsibility of being the HC during the Shrine Bowl would lend itself to the idea that the issue wasn't Brown, but it's not a complete guarantee.

 

[DaBruinz]

Because he hasn't developed any WR's (outside of Jakobi) since he's been WR coach. Do you think Josh and Matt told him specifically "Troy, make sure these guys don't perform up their potential."?

Bourne put up the best numbers of his career during his 1st year with the Pats and Troy as his coach. Why doesn't Troy get credit there?

 

[Huckleberry1]

I think the original poat serves as another brick in the narrative that little blame should be shouldered by Mac for last year.

The obvious implication of the original post is that the receivers last year weren't being held accountable, which is preposterous.

I was a solid supporter of Mac Jones after he was drafted, and after his first season, and I recognize the damage Belichick did to him last season by putting Patricia and Judge in charge of the offense. I also see the point his detractors have made about his arm strength, as there are times when the ball seems to lose the needed pace, and it results in a break up or turnover. And i do think that his negatives can be overcome, but they are also serious impediments to achieving success. The biggest of these to me is his inability to extend plays, as it seems like once the play starts to break down he fell apart, and so did the play. Some of this was his wasn’t his fault, like poor protection, and ****ty coaching, but his inability to process plays quickly, and lack of in pocket movement skills, and inability to escape the pocket are in him. My other big concern was that I felt like he thought he had already “ made it,” and came into the season really ****y, when by no means was he even close to a level to portray that kind of arrogance. And the cleats up slides need to disappear forever. The bottom line for me is that he had better have had the off-season of his life in every area of football he needs to improve upon, which is everything, and a come to Jesus moment where he realized that he has a million miles to go to be a top QB in the NFL, and that he needs to earn that and demonstrate it before strutting around like he has two Lombardi’s on the shelf. Being the 8th choice for QB in the “ Pro Bowl” charade doesn’t mean you are a top dog.

Jones has some good qualities, he showed some real fight and some leadership in his rookie year, and if he can get the rest of his game in line with that then he could still have a good future, but if he looks like he did last season again this year then the Patriots are going to be drafting a QB high in next years Draft,

 

[crawhammer]

So you're saying Jameson Williams can't compete in the NFL... he was the same exact size leaving college?

Not the same exact size, Jameson is a tad shorter with more build to his frame, but whatever their size is close enough. Jameson is an all world talent who has prolific NFL career written allover him. The same cannot be said for Tyquan.

Devonta Smith was a featherweight 170 pounds leaving school, he's averaged 1000+ yards receiving for two years now.

DeVonta is altogether a different size than Tyquan, much shorter and lighter, but more proportioned. DeVonta is another super talented receiver, way above the class of Tyquan at this point, but maybe Tyquan will improve, I'm skeptical. He also doesn't have AJ Brown on the other side of the field (or Hurts for a QB).

 

[Wozzy]

Not the same exact size, Jameson is a tad shorter with more build to his frame, but whatever their size is close enough. Jameson is an all world talent who has prolific NFL career written allover him. The same cannot be said for Tyquan.

Wrong. Jameson was measured in the pre-draft process, they don't just guess these guy's height and weight... you know that right?

Combine, pro day... they measure them. Williams was 6'2" 179 pounds exactly, Thornton was 6'2" 183 pounds exactly... Tyquan weighed more.

And yeah... Thornton with his 4.2 forty speed, 38.5" vertical leap, 131" broad jump and 33 3/8" arms isn't "all world talent." Sounds legit.

DeVonta is altogether a different size than Tyquan, much shorter and lighter, but more proportioned. DeVonta is another super talented receiver, way above the class of Tyquan at this point, but maybe Tyquan will improve, I'm skeptical. He also doesn't have AJ Brown on the other side of the field (or Hurts for a QB).

Devonta is 6' even and weighed 170 pounds.... he's got hollow bones just like Tyquan, Jameson and many other guys who have made it in the NFL. The problem with dealing in absolutes is there are often examples out there proving you wrong already if you bother to go looking for them.

This is another in a long line of "player x is a Patriot so he automatically sucks" until he doesn't takes, and there will be no mea culpa forthcoming if you're wrong.

 

[patfanken]

Not the same exact size, Jameson is a tad shorter with more build to his frame, but whatever their size is close enough. Jameson is an all world talent who has prolific NFL career written allover him. The same cannot be said for Tyquan.


DeVonta is altogether a different size than Tyquan, much shorter and lighter, but more proportioned. DeVonta is another super talented receiver, way above the class of Tyquan at this point, but maybe Tyquan will improve, I'm skeptical. He also doesn't have AJ Brown on the other side of the field (or Hurts for a QB).

The more I think on it the more patient I am willing to be concerning Thornton. Those clips were eye opening, not so much as diffitive proof what kind of player Thornton will be, but in just those 2 clips I saw SPECIFIC flaws in his game, and that is good news. Because they are all fixable with hard work and REPETITIONS. The fact is that very few WR's come into the league out of the box and make an impact.

Wasn't DSmith very ordinary his rookie year, and speaking of that, after his FIRST year starting it wasn't even clear that Hurts would be the starting QB in Philly, Hurts got a lot better as his OL improved and WR's improved, and he got more experienced in the offense

The point is it takes TIME to build a team and having year after year of top 10 picks helps too and have your young players develop into solid pros. And after all that you have to be VERY very lucky. You have to get the right bounces at the right times. You need key calls to be made in YOUR favor at the right time. You have to have a year where there are no key injuries, and when they happen you have the depth to survive them. I keep remembering the lesson of those talented squads of the late 90's. Championship talent.....one deep. When that happens you wind up with .500 seasons

I'm actually really excited about the coming season. It will be VERY very interesting. Expectations will be low (that schedule is REALLY tough...on paper) Maybe we bring back Rodney Harrison to give a pre-game locker room talk about DISRESPECT, and no on expects you to win, etc. Feels GOOD to be an underdog again.

All that being said, Thornton might just end up being just another in a long line of failed 2nd WR's that can run fast. But let's give him a chance to show us he's on an upward path and will be better this year and still better in year 3. We just can't draw definite conclusions based on what amounts to 2 thirds of a season.

 

[crawhammer]

Wrong. Jameson was measured in the pre-draft process, they don't just guess these guy's height and weight... you know that right?

Combine, pro day... they measure them. Williams was 6'2" 179 pounds exactly, Thornton was 6'2" 183 pounds exactly... Tyquan weighed more.

And yeah... Thornton with his 4.2 forty speed, 38.5" vertical leap, 131" broad jump and 33 3/8" arms isn't "all world talent." Sounds legit.

Devonta is 6' even and weighed 170 pounds.... he's got hollow bones just like Tyquan, Jameson and many other guys who have made it in the NFL. The problem with dealing in absolutes is there are often examples out there proving you wrong already if you bother to go looking for them.

This is another in a long line of "player x is a Patriot so he automatically sucks" until he doesn't takes, and there will be no mea culpa forthcoming if you're wrong.

Unfortunately for Tyquan they play NFL football games on Sundays and not track meets.

Belichick has a very poor record of drafting WRs. He has a particular blind spot in 2nd rounds (or late 1st in Harry's case). He can't judge talent, NFL potential, or draft value with WRs. Tyquan looks like just another WR bust in a long line of them for Belichick over the past two decades. So 'the receiver X sucks until he doesn't theory' is pretty applicable with a BB drafted player. He probably should stick to late round fliers like this year.

 

[Kasmir]

Moss is the greatest WR I have ever seen. Rice will likely hold the GOAT tag because of his achievements. But like Barry Sanders in the running back discussion, Moss could do things no other WR could do. I suppose it’s different interpretations of the same question, but that’s how I see it.

Agreed. I remember being gob smacked seeing him in his rookie year for the first time. What an unbelievable combination of size, speed and reach, and as it turned out football intelligence as well. GOAT, >> Rice.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Unfortunately for Tyquan they play NFL football games on Sundays and not track meets.

Belichick has a very poor record of drafting WRs. He has a particular blind spot in 2nd rounds (or late 1st in Harry's case). He can't judge talent, NFL potential, or draft value with WRs. Tyquan looks like just another WR bust in a long line of them for Belichick over the past two decades. So 'the receiver X sucks until he doesn't theory' is pretty applicable with a BB drafted player. He probably should stick to late round fliers like this year.

Agree completely. Belichick sucks. Always has. He shouldn’t have been allowed to coach high school football. Fortunately you have been there to point this out repeatedly, ad nauseum in fact. If Kraft wasn’t so busy banging blondes 39 years younger than him maybe he would have listened to you and saved us from the 6 Lombardi’s and 20 year Dynasty we all had to suffer through! Thank you for all you do, even if it is like a highly repetitive grievance seeking missile that has no basis in reality.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The more I think on it the more patient I am willing to be concerning Thornton. Those clips were eye opening, not so much as diffitive proof what kind of player Thornton will be, but in just those 2 clips I saw SPECIFIC flaws in his game, and that is good news. Because they are all fixable with hard work and REPETITIONS. The fact is that very few WR's come into the league out of the box and make an impact.

Wasn't DSmith very ordinary his rookie year, and speaking of that, after his FIRST year starting it wasn't even clear that Hurts would be the starting QB in Philly, Hurts got a lot better as his OL improved and WR's improved, and he got more experienced in the offense

The point is it takes TIME to build a team and having year after year of top 10 picks helps too and have your young players develop into solid pros. And after all that you have to be VERY very lucky. You have to get the right bounces at the right times. You need key calls to be made in YOUR favor at the right time. You have to have a year where there are no key injuries, and when they happen you have the depth to survive them. I keep remembering the lesson of those talented squads of the late 90's. Championship talent.....one deep. When that happens you wind up with .500 seasons

I'm actually really excited about the coming season. It will be VERY very interesting. Expectations will be low (that schedule is REALLY tough...on paper) Maybe we bring back Rodney Harrison to give a pre-game locker room talk about DISRESPECT, and no on expects you to win, etc. Feels GOOD to be an underdog again.

All that being said, Thornton might just end up being just another in a long line of failed 2nd WR's that can run fast. But let's give him a chance to show us he's on an upward path and will be better this year and still better in year 3. We just can't draw definite conclusions based on what amounts to 2 thirds of a season.

Sorry Ken, you know the rules. Giving players a chance is for pantywaists. Don’t succumb to the temptation Ken, don’t be a pantywaist.

 

[captain stone]

I thought it interesting that the Pats had Troy be the head coach for the shrine game. Clearly the coaching staff have faith in him and wanted him to get that experience.

You mean the same coaching staff - aka Bill - who had faith in Phatt Matt & Judge Joey?

 

[Zuma]

You mean the same coaching staff - aka Bill - who had faith in Phatt Matt & Judge Joey?

It was a mistake. I’m moving on.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I was a solid supporter of Mac Jones after he was drafted, and after his first season, and I recognize the damage Belichick did to him last season by putting Patricia and Judge in charge of the offense. I also see the point his detractors have made about his arm strength, as there are times when the ball seems to lose the needed pace, and it results in a break up or turnover. And i do think that his negatives can be overcome, but they are also serious impediments to achieving success. The biggest of these to me is his inability to extend plays, as it seems like once the play starts to break down he fell apart, and so did the play. Some of this was his wasn’t his fault, like poor protection, and ****ty coaching, but his inability to process plays quickly, and lack of in pocket movement skills, and inability to escape the pocket are in him. My other big concern was that I felt like he thought he had already “ made it,” and came into the season really ****y, when by no means was he even close to a level to portray that kind of arrogance. And the cleats up slides need to disappear forever. The bottom line for me is that he had better have had the off-season of his life in every area of football he needs to improve upon, which is everything, and a come to Jesus moment where he realized that he has a million miles to go to be a top QB in the NFL, and that he needs to earn that and demonstrate it before strutting around like he has two Lombardi’s on the shelf. Being the 8th choice for QB in the “ Pro Bowl” charade doesn’t mean you are a top dog.

Jones has some good qualities, he showed some real fight and some leadership in his rookie year, and if he can get the rest of his game in line with that then he could still have a good future, but if he looks like he did last season again this year then the Patriots are going to be drafting a QB high in next years Draft,

Last season was a lost season from the start for the offense. Clearly Mac took a step backwards from the results perspective. The injury was part of the story, not the reason. Everyone learns more from failure than success, the season is not totally lost if Mac learned from the experience and is ready to apply those lessons to how he approaches his job as QB next year.

 

[crawhammer]

Agree completely. Belichick sucks. Always has. He shouldn’t have been allowed to coach high school football. Fortunately you have been there to point this out repeatedly, ad nauseum in fact. If Kraft wasn’t so busy banging blondes 39 years younger than him maybe he would have listened to you and saved us from the 6 Lombardi’s and 20 year Dynasty we all had to suffer through! Thank you for all you do, even if it is like a highly repetitive grievance seeking missile that has no basis in reality.

I suppose that's a typical IBWT response. I must be a lunatic thinking all these WR draft picks by Belichick sucked:

Bethel Johnson (2nd rd)
Chad Jackson (2nd rd)
Brandon Tate (3rd rd)
Taylor Price (3rd rd)
Aaron Dobson (2nd rd)
Josh Boyce (4th rd)
N'Keal Harry (1st rd)
Tyquan Thornton (2nd rd)

That's only 4th round or earlier. Results aren't any better in lower rounds. The one exception being Julian Edelman who was the 11th player chosen by the Patriots in that draft so he was a major flier.

Obviously it doesn't mean Belichick is a complete louse and a bad head coach. It means what it clearly indicates, he can't draft a WR to save his life. Fact. Tell me how I'm wrong given the above putrid list.

 

[Wozzy]

Unfortunately for Tyquan they play NFL football games on Sundays and not track meets.

He already played and produced in limited opportunities in a seriously dysfunctional offense.

Belichick has a very poor record of drafting WRs. He has a particular blind spot in 2nd rounds (or late 1st in Harry's case). He can't judge talent, NFL potential, or draft value with WRs. Tyquan looks like just another WR bust in a long line of them for Belichick over the past two decades. So 'the receiver X sucks until he doesn't theory' is pretty applicable with a BB drafted player. He probably should stick to late round fliers like this year.

History doesn’t determine the future, the Pats have drafted WR less than most (all?) teams in the league over the last two decades and the majority of those picks were late round dart throws.

They also found Super Bowl MVP Deion Branch, solid possession WR David Givens, slot stud Julian Edelman, kick returner Brandon Tate, special teams ace Matt Slater, Malcolm Mitchell, Braxton Berrios and Jakobi Meyers.

Perception is largely driven by the few times they took a WR in the first two rounds there were busts (Johnson, Jackson, Dobson, Harry) but the truth is they don’t draft WR often… so the pool has been small. WR has the highest failure rate among all offensive draft picks… they fail a lot on every team.