Not Mortgaging the Future

[MrBigglesWorth]

No idea what this means. The Pats have extensive cap space, top 3 in the NFL, in 2024 and 2025. The Pats need great drafts and for the QB/offense to produce, but the Pats have not mortgaged, or spent, their future. Quite the contrary, the Pats have saved for the future, and some posters think the Pats have saved too much.

It means they wasted years. Planned poorly. Cam was a disaster. The coaching last yr was a major setback. Mortgaging isn't always money... It can be wasted time

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

It means they wasted years. Planned poorly. Cam was a disaster. The coaching last yr was a major setback. Mortgaging isn't always money... It can be wasted time

The Cam year was a reset year - that is OK. Last year was a disaster as you note. This year will tell a lot. Either way, the Pats are not mortgaging the future as their rebuild sputters and coughs. Hopefully we will turn the corner this year, but if not, I agree we have wasted a lot of resources for 4 years.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Now we went all in and mortgaged the future for Brady’s last years with the team and have been paying the price.

Yes - including trading picks for players - that's lower risk in the short term (because established players) but hurts you down the road as you miss the cheap years of successful picks. They truly did mortgage the future some in Brady's last two years - including the dead money when he left.

We have a clean slate now - way better than any other competitive team. So there really is the opportunity here to grab a couple of high-end players.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The Chargers got no high whatsoever from overpaying JC Jackson 82.5 million dollars… their fans were calling him the biggest free agent bust in history.

He is a solid #2 CB, but he was never a shutdown CB the way Gilmore was. You don’t overpay that guy just because fans were clamoring for it. Most don’t understand value… or get it from media members or outside sources with poor value systems.

Pats fans are severely underrating JC's time in NE. He only gave up one or two 100 yard games to WR's in his entire tenure with NE. He led the NFL in INT's and pass breakups, lowest QB rating when thrown at, etc. since he entered the league in 2018. I've posted these stats many times and don't feel like doing it again. He deserved to get a big contract.

However, it's funny how Chargers fans are calling him a bust when they should be pointing the fingers at their training staff are notoriously bad at keeping guys on the field since the Phillip Rivers days. You don't have to be a Doctor to see how poorly they handled his situation as he came back from ankle surgery only one week longer than Mac came back with a sprain. He looked like he was running in slow motion week 1 of the season. He got another injury trying to play on a bum ankle. I hope he recovers and has a bounce back season.

PFF told us in 2017 that Stephon Gilmore wasn’t very good, he had a bad player grade… Bill knew otherwise and paid him instead of Malcolm Butler. Butler reverted back to the frog he really was, and Gilmore became DPOY and best CB in the NFL.

Gilmore also had a mediocre player grade during year he ended up winning DPOY. It was shown on a Sunday Night game when they introduce players.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

The Cam year was a reset year - that is OK. Last year was a disaster as you note. This year will tell a lot. Either way, the Pats are not mortgaging the future as their rebuild sputters and coughs. Hopefully we will turn the corner this year, but if not, I agree we have wasted a lot of resources for 4 years.

I agree with this. The Cam year was a reset to deal with previous mortgaging of future cap money. Mac's rookie year was a step in the right direction, last year was the only truly wasted year. The team should be able to quickly recover if Mac learned and matured as a result of the difficult circumstances, added talent improves the team on the field and the coaching does its job. It would be a major disappointment if the Pats are not in the playoffs next year.

 

[n6249c]

Fans get their high from the rush of enthusiasm over signing or trading for their binkie, and whatever player they’ve decided or been told is a game changer is their binkie. Conversely if the player signed or traded for isn’t deemed to be a game changer there’s no rush and no enthusiasm for the signing.

At the time when Bill signed Gilmore what was the general reaction on here?

How many PatsFans posters thought it was a great signing?
How many where surprised and perhaps a bit skeptical even if they trusted BB and were willing to wait and see?
How many criticized it?

That‘s the normally expected reaction. How does it look in hindsight?

How about Chargers fans and JC? We’re they positive or negative when he signed? What was the reaction when he signed, not after he’d played the season on a bum foot?

The Chargers got no high whatsoever from overpaying JC Jackson 82.5 million dollars… their fans were calling him the biggest free agent bust in history.

He is a solid #2 CB, but he was never a shutdown CB the way Gilmore was. You don’t overpay that guy just because fans were clamoring for it. Most don’t understand value… or get it from media members or outside sources with poor value systems.

PFF told us in 2017 that Stephon Gilmore wasn’t very good, he had a bad player grade… Bill knew otherwise and paid him instead of Malcolm Butler. Butler reverted back to the frog he really was, and Gilmore became DPOY and best CB in the NFL.

You pay that guy, even if he looked like a lesser player on a bad Bills defense and Butler (Jackson) looked like a superstar on a great Patriots defense. People confuse team success with individual talent all the time.

 

[PScottman]

the steady opportunity to be a contender

This is the very crux of understanding that nothing is guaranteed in the NFL, that fortune telling is a MASSIVE aspect of it, and that there is a very small space between even opportunity and bottom dwelling.

When the Patriots were a laughingstock franchise, they were LUCKY to get near 6 or even 7 wins in a season. More likely were the 4 and 5 win campaigns, with a complete overhaul of all staff every couple years to reset any possibility opportunity for another three years (while also including the many bust picks (Hi my name is Eugene Chung) those GMs made with those high picks "earned" through that ineptitude.)

In those long years, the Patriots didn't even have the opportunity to maybe sniff the playoffs and fans were talking about the draft in November.

As flawed as the last two year's teams were (and they were)...they still had opportunity (even mid-season last year they were in the playoff hunt), but we fans now are so consumed with entitlement that opportunity isn't good enough. In fact, it's now worthy of ridicule, scorn, and derision.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Fans get their high from the rush of enthusiasm over signing or trading for their binkie, and whatever player they’ve decided or been told is a game changer is their binkie. Conversely if the player signed or traded for isn’t deemed to be a game changer there’s no rush and no enthusiasm for the signing.

At the time when Bill signed Gilmore what was the general reaction on here?

How many PatsFans posters thought it was a great signing?
How many where surprised and perhaps a bit skeptical even if they trusted BB and were willing to wait and see?
How many criticized it?

That‘s the normally expected reaction. How does it look in hindsight?

How about Chargers fans and JC? We’re they positive or negative when he signed? What was the reaction when he signed, not after he’d played the season on a bum foot?

Yep, Gilmore was not a popular signing as he was an underwhelming 1st round pick of the Bills when they had an expiring contract with Butler.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

It amazes me that the critics follow this team. They need to move their interest to a a team that signs huge long term contracts to big name players like Denver that was so successful signing Wilson. Yeah, that would do it. That would fill all their dreams and hopes.

 

[Real fan 02]

Pats are gaining more cap room because they currently don't have anybody to sign to a big contract and that's not a good thing.

Agreed!!Yeah.. I don't pay much attention to the cap crap as it all can be manipulated anyway team owners and GMs want it too.. if cap really meant anything then KC wouldn't have given PM a 500 Mill deal over 10 years..

 

[Wozzy]

Pats fans are severely underrating JC's time in NE. He only gave up one or two 100 yard games to WR's in his entire tenure with NE. He led the NFL in INT's and pass breakups, lowest QB rating when thrown at, etc. since he entered the league in 2018. I've posted these stats many times and don't feel like doing it again. He deserved to get a big contract.

Jackson was usually opposite Gilmore who was manning up opponent's best big WR, Jon Jones was manning up that teams best small WR, and he was on the best schemed and coached defensive backfield in the league. If you have the luxury to defend another team's second or third best guy and your defensive front creates pressure the way the Pat's D does... prepare for a lot of ducks thrown your way.

It's team sport, this is not a slight against Jackson. It's not different than my saying Mahomes has a massive advantage playing for the Chiefs, for having Andy Reid's mind and the offensive line and players around him. Mahomes is still great, put him on a crap team and he won't look nearly as good.

Gilmore also had a mediocre player grade during year he ended up winning DPOY. It was shown on a Sunday Night game when they introduce players.

People said Randy Moss was washed up on the Raiders in 2006... many fans are victims of the moment, or simply clueless.

 

[Wozzy]

Fans get their high from the rush of enthusiasm over signing or trading for their binkie, and whatever player they’ve decided or been told is a game changer is their binkie. Conversely if the player signed or traded for isn’t deemed to be a game changer there’s no rush and no enthusiasm for the signing.

At the time when Bill signed Gilmore what was the general reaction on here?

Many posters were calling it a reach, an overpay, and it got worse after week one when the defense and especially Gilmore struggled in a new situation. Butler, the CB opposite him was probably not communicating the way he should, because Gilmore got the contract Butler thought he deserved.

How many PatsFans posters thought it was a great signing?
How many where surprised and perhaps a bit skeptical even if they trusted BB and were willing to wait and see?
How many criticized it?

That‘s the normally expected reaction. How does it look in hindsight?

How about Chargers fans and JC? We’re they positive or negative when he signed? What was the reaction when he signed, not after he’d played the season on a bum foot?

I'm speaking mostly to the tenor of this thread and why spending through the nose doesn't always equal success. In Butler's case they paid Gilmore instead, but there have been too many cases to count where the team moved off a vet player fans insisted was crucial only to replace him with a cheaper sometimes better rookie.

Look right now... fans are clamoring for an expensive WR (Juedy, Hopkins) as if that will cure the problem hiring Bill O'Brien has probably already solved. And there's the possibility that Tyquan or the kid they draft in the 4th or 5th round will become as good or better than these expensive vet options that fans insist we need. Fans can't envision an unknown quantity becoming a success, a #1 WR... it has to be the expensive name brand... always, even if it's extremely overpriced and/or the player is past his prime.

 

[Toofy]

When I read posts like these I wonder how long these folks would have remained fans during the many years before BB came to town, when the Pats were the perennial door mat and laughing stock of the NFL... Kraft is not "cheap" and BB is a hall of fame coach.

See I think it's not fair to compare generations past. Just because we sucked 20 years past doesn't mean we are allowed to suck now.

We are in an internet and mobile era, peoples attention span is reducing. You can't expect people to follow a losing team for 10 years in a row when you have so much other options like TikTok, YouTube, other sports etc.

Back in those days the options were limited, loyalty was paramount , expecting that from current generation who have been exposed to multitude of things is not fair. And to dismiss off the fans when they are impatient for a winning season in 5 years is not reasonable. We have not won a playoff game in 4 seasons for now . Yes bill is the GOAT, but if you wallow in mediocrity time to move on. So in that case , I believe these are bills last 2 years for redemption .


And I think no owner can be cheap , you nee fto spend to the cap , those are the rules . You cannot avoid that . Some are going for the all in approach while we are still playing by cap rules aka conservatism . Time will tell which approach wins .

We saw buffalo go all in and now next 3 years it will be difficult for them to cross the final hurdle with chiefs.

Let's see how chiefs do this year with their lack of offensive playmakers. Maybe they have a template of getting the beefiest offensive line and hoping mahomes never had a bad day in office. His winning percentage is 80% . Unbelievable !! .

Somebody should poach their DC. He is the secret for their success more than Andy Reid. They win winning percentage football on defense with fatr less talent

 

[TheRainMaker]

Jackson was usually opposite Gilmore who was manning up opponent's best big WR

Jackson actually got better when he was the teams #1 guy during Gilmore’s absence in 2020 and after he was traded. Again, you are severely underrating how good he was in NE.

 

[DarrylS]

See I think it's not fair to compare generations past. Just because we sucked 20 years past doesn't mean we are allowed to suck now.

We are in an internet and mobile era, peoples attention span is reducing. You can't expect people to follow a losing team for 10 years in a row when you have so much other options like TikTok, YouTube, other sports etc.

Back in those days the options were limited, loyalty was paramount , expecting that from current generation who have been exposed to multitude of things is not fair. And to dismiss off the fans when they are impatient for a winning season in 5 years is not reasonable. We have not won a playoff game in 4 seasons for now . Yes bill is the GOAT, but if you wallow in mediocrity time to move on. So in that case , I believe these are bills last 2 years for redemption .


And I think no owner can be cheap , you nee fto spend to the cap , those are the rules . You cannot avoid that . Some are going for the all in approach while we are still playing by cap rules aka conservatism . Time will tell which approach wins .

We saw buffalo go all in and now next 3 years it will be difficult for them to cross the final hurdle with chiefs.

Let's see how chiefs do this year with their lack of offensive playmakers. Maybe they have a template of getting the beefiest offensive line and hoping mahomes never had a bad day in office. His winning percentage is 80% . Unbelievable !! .

Somebody should poach their DC. He is the secret for their success more than Andy Reid. They win winning percentage football on defense with fatr less talent

You had to have been there to begin to understand the ridicule that us Pat's fans took in those days.. I used to come in on Sundays there were always fellow workers looking down on Pat's Fans making crappy comments. They wore their Jets, Giants, Dallas etc puff coats... and make snide comments about Pats Fans were losers.

There was never any Pat's gear available in those days.. we were considered some sort of alien country by the marketers and manufacturers of NFL Gear. Often we were blacked out as I listened to the broadcast on my SONY walkman..

Of course our perspectives are different younger fans tend to be spoiled, us older dudes have been seasoned and gone through some very bad and embarrassing times as fans. My perspective is that I am the luckiest sports fan in the world not only because of the Pats; the Celtics, Bruins and Red Sox have accomplished a lot to make me very proud.

 

[Wozzy]

Jackson actually got better when he was the teams #1 guy during Gilmore’s absence in 2020 and after he was traded. Again, you are severely underrating how good he was in NE.

Ceedee Lamb and Stephon Diggs pretty much proved to them JC was not a #1 shutdown CB.

Good player, but not a top of the market player. Going to the Chargers solidified that, he wasn’t playing well before he got injured.

 

[Toofy]

You had to have been there to begin to understand the ridicule that us Pat's fans took in those days.. I used to come in on Sundays there were always fellow workers looking down on Pat's Fans making crappy comments. They wore their Jets, Giants, Dallas etc puff coats... and make snide comments about Pats Fans were losers.

There was never any Pat's gear available in those days.. we were considered some sort of alien country by the marketers and manufacturers of NFL Gear. Often we were blacked out as I listened to the broadcast on my SONY walkman..

Of course our perspectives are different younger fans tend to be spoiled, us older dudes have been seasoned and gone through some very bad and embarrassing times as fans. My perspective is that I am the luckiest sports fan in the world not only because of the Pats; the Celtics, Bruins and Red Sox have accomplished a lot to make me very proud.

See I respect you folks for sticking along. But just wanted to call out perspectives and opinions and expectations change. All of us want pats to improve and win . Just that patience bit is a little less but don't discount us as bandwagoners for that . Our brain and mind is not wired in to take 10 losing seasons .

 

[TheRainMaker]

Ceedee Lamb and Stephon Diggs pretty much proved to them JC was not a #1 shutdown CB.

Good player, but not a top of the market player. Going to the Chargers solidified that, he wasn’t playing well before he got injured.

Two guys means he isn't a "shut down CB"? Do you remember how many times Ty Law got torched in the 90's by WR's within his his own division with Keyshawn Johnson being his daddy? How many times did he show up small against the Broncos?

By the way, Jackson had never given up 100 yards to Stefan Diggs during his time in NE and his assignment was Amari Cooper (who didn't do much) against Dallas. Lamb torched Mills....badly who gave up the game winning TD of course.

 

[Wozzy]

Two guys means he isn't a "shut down CB"? Do you remember how many times Ty Law got torched in the 90's by WR's within his his own division with Keyshawn Johnson being his daddy? How many times did he show up small against the Broncos?

By the way, Jackson had never given up 100 yards to Stefan Diggs during his time in NE and his assignment was Amari Cooper (who didn't do much) against Dallas. Lamb torched Mills....badly who gave up the game winning TD of course.

Okay… so him getting beat by the best big WR’s doesn’t prove he’s not a shutdown CB, but his lone season with the Chargers does.

Bottom line, he might be a good player… but wasn’t top of the market good.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Most of the posts on the first page of this thread are moronic in the extreme. We have a team coming off what was really a 9 or 10 win season but for some crazy sh*t that went down, with a fully intact above-average defense, a team with a good young QB entering his 3rd year, good weapons, best HC in the business, good OC and DC, good young front office, picking #14 with 11 picks total, 4 years removed from their 3rd SB in 5 years, and they're all bellyaching and criticizing like we're the gd Houston Texans.

And with all that as a base, now we learn that we also have the absolute BEST cap situation in the league looking forward. The horror of it all. These are dark times indeed.

Do you really think the defense is going to produce the amount of points off turnovers like they did last year. The defensive points scored was amazing. I'd be shocked if that happened

But you're right. They managed to win that many games despite little to no offense and end of the game blunders in two games