Mike Giardi: The offense was so beat up this time last year, that they could not run a full practice

[Ring 6]

Y'know...You are right to call me out on that.

I had some back n forth with a couple of posters on this topic and part of me began to wonder if there was something cognitive going on with Stork that game. Wonder if that played into the snap issues. If that was the case, why the hell didn't they put Andrews in?

Just so unlike this team not to account for that kind of detail.

Because it's not the case. You are blaming the stop sign for the car that ran through it

 

[Ring 6]

Of course...that's a given

Despite in-season losses in talent, our defense is playing more cohesively as a unit despite losing Collins, while our offense is showing the quality of its depth by playing better than it ever has before when Gronk has gone down in the past.

But if neither is sufficient to win us a Super Bowl, then we'll inevitably point back to these two players and question whether their presence might've helped.

We shall see....we shall see

Just to nitpick but the distinction is important, we didn't LOSE Collins, we sent him away.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Because it's not the case. You are blaming the stop sign for the car that ran through it

Andy you have no idea if that is accurate. Like me, you are assuming it was the coaching. Unlike me you are jumping to the conclusion that coaching was 100% the fault.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy you have no idea if that is accurate. Like me, you are assuming it was the coaching. Unlike me you are jumping to the conclusion that coaching was 100% the fault.

No I am using common sense and experience.
There is just no chance that the patriots decided that the way to handle silent counts is that the center snaps the ball whenever he wants. Why? Very simple. That takes away any advantage the offense has of knowing when the ball will be snapped.
Instead the approach is just like a spoken snap count but it is silent.

Think it through.
Which would you do?
Center snaps whenever he wants so o and d both watch the ball?
Center had a trigger and then snaps the call a predetermined amount of time after the trigger so the offense knows the "count" and the defense doesn't.

It is coaching either way because if they did it the first way that is moronic and a jr high coach would know better.
If they did it the second way they never changed the count. If stork was responsible for calling the count he should have been coached better. Not sure why the center instead of the QB would call the silent count any way.

There is nothing anywhere saying that stork was responsible. Lights educated guess out it in coaching.

However in this thread there was a poster who analyzed each snap for the first 1/3 in amazing detail and found that this idea that it was tipped isn't even true. I have not gone back and watched the film but it may be no ones fault and the tipping of snaps may be an incorrect statement by light.
I have not seen anything ever besides lights comments to say this and I have not seen lights comments corroborated. I have seen a poster do a lot of work in reviewing it and coming up with an opposite analysis.

 

[mosi]

C'mon. The 2015 Patriots offensive line was a mess. They started 13 different line combinations in 16 games - most in the NFL. According to MMQB the Patriots used 39 different OL lineups while the Vikings used the same 5 guys in the same position for all but 14 plays. The context of this is so very important.

People want to blame Deguglielmo, but he was tremendously handicapped by the injuries and guys playing out of position. Bryan Stork played center, guard and tackle last year, and we found out he had a broken arm at the end of the season.

I read and heard what Matt Light said, and factor that in, but this stuff all goes together. Throw in the loss of Blount, Boldena and Lewis in the backfield, and as others have said, it's still amazing how far they got last year.

Whatever, this year looks so fortunately different.

Agree 100%. But if you watch that game, it might be the best game Gronk has ever had. He was amazing. Some of those catches were just unbelievable.

 

[captain stone]

Easy on Bryan Stork. He was great as a rookie in the SB winning 2014 season. He suffered concussion and neck injuries so that his career was limited to less than two full seasons.

It's sad, really, and I wish the best for him.

Bryan Stork - Wikipedia

Stork never should've been drafted in the first place, not while Russell Jethroe Bodine was still available
(since Bill was looking for a Center).
Stork (as well as fellow FSU linemate Tre Jackson) was already damaged goods coming out of college.

And don't even get me started on Jonny Halapio instead of Laurent Duvernay-Tardif.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No I am using common sense and experience.
There is just no chance that the patriots decided that the way to handle silent counts is that the center snaps the ball whenever he wants. Why? Very simple. That takes away any advantage the offense has of knowing when the ball will be snapped.
Instead the approach is just like a spoken snap count but it is silent.

Think it through.
Which would you do?
Center snaps whenever he wants so o and d both watch the ball?
Center had a trigger and then snaps the call a predetermined amount of time after the trigger so the offense knows the "count" and the defense doesn't.

It is coaching either way because if they did it the first way that is moronic and a jr high coach would know better.
If they did it the second way they never changed the count. If stork was responsible for calling the count he should have been coached better. Not sure why the center instead of the QB would call the silent count any way.

There is nothing anywhere saying that stork was responsible. Lights educated guess out it in coaching.

My problem with Light's commentary is that he implied that they never even practiced varying the snap count. Thats why as ****ty as a OL coach Googs was, for A) that coaching not to take place leading up to a playoff game in the 102db stadium with B) BB, Josh, Fears, O'Shea, and Tom all being part of that process and making sure it is clean during a game is unfathomable to me. If that is the case, that is most amazing systematic failure of coaching in BB's tenure as coach. All that experience and attention to detail this organization has and to not be practicing the different silent counts doesn't add up to me. Especially if the belief is Stork's head-bob was not the tip (as Von Miller says) He could be lying. Who knows.

At any rate, it still baffles me.

When I said,"Stork went rogue" I didn't mean he intentionally sabotaged the game. I meant that for whatever reason, he couldn't keep it straight in his head the different cadences, delay/silent counts and intervals.

However in this thread there was a poster who analyzed each snap for the first 1/3 in amazing detail and found that this idea that it was tipped isn't even true. I have not gone back and watched the film but it may be no ones fault and the tipping of snaps may be an incorrect statement by light.
I have not seen anything ever besides lights comments to say this and I have not seen lights comments corroborated. I have seen a poster do a lot of work in reviewing it and coming up with an opposite analysis.

There was a good write up on PatsPropaganda and also here. It offers conflicting viewpoints on the "head-bob" tipping the snap and PP dismissing it as the cause

Bryan Stork Was Tipping The Snap - Inside The Pylon

A Look Back at the Patriots Silent Snap

 

[tasmlab]

We absolutely know he wasn't a good coach here.

Evidence #1 - Not working with Stork so he isn't tipping his snaps is all you need to know. Not detail-oriented at all.

Evidence #2- BB told him to take a walk. For BB to do that to a coach after 2 years is very rare.

And still, 2014. 2015 wasn't chopped liver, going a play or three away from the SB. But I agree that the dismissal alone is evidence enough that he wasn't the right guy.

 

[RobertWeathers]

And still, 2014. 2015 wasn't chopped liver, going a play or three away from the SB. But I agree that the dismissal alone is evidence enough that he wasn't the right guy.

Yea I wonder even if the won the SB if Googs was still not long for this world.

 

[Ring 6]

My problem with Light's commentary is that he implied that they never even practiced varying the snap count. Thats why as ****ty as a OL coach Googs was, for A) that coaching not to take place leading up to a playoff game in the 102db stadium with B) BB, Josh, Fears, O'Shea, and Tom all being part of that process and making sure it is clean during a game is unfathomable to me. If that is the case, that is most amazing systematic failure of coaching in BB's tenure as coach. All that experience and attention to detail this organization has and to not be practicing the different silent counts doesn't add up to me. Especially if the belief is Stork's head-bob was not the tip (as Von Miller says) He could be lying. Who knows.

At any rate, it still baffles me.

When I said,"Stork went rogue" I didn't mean he intentionally sabotaged the game. I meant that for whatever reason, he couldn't keep it straight in his head the different cadences, delay/silent counts and intervals.



There was a good write up on PatsPropaganda and also here. It offers conflicting viewpoints on the "head-bob" tipping the snap and PP dismissing it as the cause

Bryan Stork Was Tipping The Snap - Inside The Pylon

A Look Back at the Patriots Silent Snap

But how could it be stork?
That would have to mean the coaching was snap whenever you feel like it. And that would mean no one on offense knows when the snap will be. Clearly that is not what happened and if it did it's worse coaching than any other answer.

The only other ways it could be stork would be if he snapped on the wrong count. He didn't because there would have been numerous offsides. Or that he called the count in the huddle which is ludicrous.

Personally I think it's a bunch of crap. They didn't go on the same interval every play. They just didn't. So it's not a tip if you don't do it every time.
I think Miller just has a great day getting off the ball and guessed right on a few gambles. It happens.
There isn't really any evidence of tipping other than lights opinion. And frankly lights comments were that the coaches should have used different triggers.
Again blaming stork is like blaming the stop sign when someone runs it.

 

[The Gr8est]

Agree 100%. But if you watch that game, it might be the best game Gronk has ever had. He was amazing. Some of those catches were just unbelievable.

Agreed, except that he also spent a lot of time on the sidelines getting hydrated and rubdowns.

Love that totally fair Denver home field advantage.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But how could it be stork?
That would have to mean the coaching was snap whenever you feel like it. And that would mean no one on offense knows when the snap will be. Clearly that is not what happened and if it did it's worse coaching than any other answer.

The only other ways it could be stork would be if he snapped on the wrong count. He didn't because there would have been numerous offsides. Or that he called the count in the huddle which is ludicrous.

My working theory is that after a couple of series Stork went to the coaching staff and asked the cadence, silent count,interval to be simplified because he couldn't keep it straight. I agree, doing it in the huddle on on his own is not realistic. Once he told the coaches he had problems they said f it, fine.

Personally I think it's a bunch of crap. They didn't go on the same interval every play. They just didn't. So it's not a tip if you don't do it every time.
I think Miller just has a great day getting off the ball and guessed right on a few gambles. It happens.
There isn't really any evidence of tipping other than lights opinion. And frankly lights comments were that the coaches should have used different triggers.
Again blaming stork is like blaming the stop sign when someone runs it.

I dunna know, Miller, Ware and Wolf were getting ridiculous jumps all game. To say the bob wasn't a trigger I don't think is 100% truthful. I think it was some part that and others....

 

[Ring 6]

My working theory is that after a couple of series Stork went to the coaching staff and asked the cadence, silent count,interval to be simplified because he couldn't keep it straight. I agree, doing it in the huddle on on his own is not realistic. Once he told the coaches he had problems they said f it, fine.



I dunna know, Miller, Ware and Wolf were getting ridiculous jumps all game. To say the bob wasn't a trigger I don't think is 100% truthful. I think it was some part that and others....

Come on. You just totally made that up.
An NFL player went to the coaches and asked if every play can be on the same snap count because he is too stupid to remember it? AND THEY SAID FINE?
You are now embarrassing yourself in this discussion. I have too much respect for you to continue it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Come on. You just totally made that up.
An NFL player went to the coaches and asked if every play can be on the same snap count because he is too stupid to remember it? AND THEY SAID FINE?
You are now embarrassing yourself in this discussion. I have too much respect for you to continue it.

Of course I made it up.

I refuse to believe it was 100% coaching. No way. Not with a BB staff and Tom and a track record of gold-standard preparation and thoroughness. Even with crappy Googs. Too many touch points for that monumental of a gaffe to happen.

I simply think Stork had problems with the cadence and the silent snap counts. He had the same problem with it in KC earlier in 2014. He went to the coaches and asked that they simplify it. The reluctantly said OK because they had no choice. Why they didn't put in Andrews is still baffling.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course I made it up.

I refuse to believe it was 100% coaching. No way. Not with a BB staff and Tom and a track record of gold-standard preparation and thoroughness. Even with crappy Googs. Too many touch points for that monumental of a gaffe to happen.

I simply think Stork had problems with the cadence and the silent snap counts. He had the same problem with it in KC earlier in 2014. He went to the coaches and asked that they simplify it. The reluctantly said OK because they had no choice. Why they didn't put in Andrews is still baffling.

That last paragraph is also made up.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That last paragraph is also made up.

It sure is.

I refuse to accept a BB run team to not have installed and practiced different silent snap intervals and variances leading up to that game. Miller Ware and Wolf are all gifted pass rushers but that was absurd.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Agree 100%. But if you watch that game, it might be the best game Gronk has ever had. He was amazing. Some of those catches were just unbelievable.

The catch (and throw by Brady) on the final drive to set up the TD was probably my favorite Pats play of the year. Would have gone down in history if they had won.

Can't remember if Ian asked us not to embed .gifs on here anymore? Add '.gif' to the end of this link if you want to see it.

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/tom-brady-to-gronk-on-4th

 

[tasmlab]

But how could it be stork?
That would have to mean the coaching was snap whenever you feel like it. And that would mean no one on offense knows when the snap will be. Clearly that is not what happened and if it did it's worse coaching than any other answer.

The only other ways it could be stork would be if he snapped on the wrong count. He didn't because there would have been numerous offsides. Or that he called the count in the huddle which is ludicrous.

Personally I think it's a bunch of crap. They didn't go on the same interval every play. They just didn't. So it's not a tip if you don't do it every time.
I think Miller just has a great day getting off the ball and guessed right on a few gambles. It happens.
There isn't really any evidence of tipping other than lights opinion. And frankly lights comments were that the coaches should have used different triggers.
Again blaming stork is like blaming the stop sign when someone runs it.

Von Miller takes pride and a lot of practice/technique at attacking right at the snap, even if it causes a few offsides penalties. He considers it one of the most important parts of his job.

The Patriots may have been going against the very best player at attacking at the snap in the league, having a monster game, in a big game, in a hostile stadium. For all the blame we can lay on the OL, perhaps some credit should be given to Miller too.

This article is good, long, previously posted here, and has a lot about the Patriots:

The 5 Toughest Guys I’ve Ever Faced | The Players' Tribune

 

[luuked]

Offense too injured to practice and yet some people here are still downplaying those injuries and are on a quest to blame the "gameplan" against the Jets and Miami.

Whatever..

 

[luuked]

The Patriots may have been going against the very best player at attacking at the snap in the league, having a monster game, in a big game, in a hostile stadium. For all the blame we can lay on the OL, perhaps some credit should be given to Miller too.

Curious then that he wasn't able to do this consistently against anyone else in the last few years..