Mike Giardi: The offense was so beat up this time last year, that they could not run a full practice

[Ring 6]

We absolutely know he wasn't a good coach here.

Evidence #1 - Not working with Stork so he isn't tipping his snaps is all you need to know. Not detail-oriented at all.

Evidence #2- BB told him to take a walk. For BB to do that to a coach after 2 years is very rare.

I agree he didn't do a good job, but I find it hard to blame the OL coach for the snap count. OC and HC should catch that.

 

[Tuck]

And so . . . a new strength and conditioning coach and now . . . the Pats have 5 players on PUP/IR. I wonder . . .

I agree with your point - they've been unbelievably healthy so far this year. I think they had something like 18 IR'd players last year, many of them starters. To go to only 5 this year and only one starter is a remarkable.

 

[Ring 6]

Silent snap count is the OL coach's job because those five guys key off it. They use several different types (and sometimes none) to keep the defense off balance. Probably couldn't practice it as much because of the injuries. These two things probably went hand in hand so the S & C coach and Googs are gone. That's my take anyway, fwiw.

But the whole offense goes off of it not just the OL.
A silent count has a trigger. In this case the center raising his head. The 'snap count' is x beats after the trigger.
So if you snap on 3, everyone has the practiced cadence in their head and the cadence starts when he raises his head.
Manning used Omaha as a trigger. When he said Omaha that was the end of his gesticulations and audibles and the snap came on the next, second, third etc sound. If he called the it on the first sound every play for an entire game, it isn't "Omaha"s fault that he tipped the snap, its calling first sound every play.

 

[Tuck]

I think a lot of the criticism Belichick took for his game planning at he end of last season was a little misplaced when you consider how banged up the team was. With so many guys down they could even practice, its no wonder they were trying to rest starters and conserve what little health they had left going into the playoff's. Had they gone all out and lost any more guys to injury they would have had absolutely no shot at all to reach the big game.

 

[slam]

You'd think different methods of snapping the ball is something you can practice even if some people are injured in a non-contact walk-through. But who knows?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I agree he didn't do a good job, but I find it hard to blame the OL coach for the snap count. OC and HC should catch that.

I think he is a big part of it but I agree- JMD and BB deserve some blame.

IIRC from Matt Light's commentary on the debacle, it wasn't the snap count/cadence that Stork f-ed up, it was tipping when the snap was coming and Googs not detecting that as an issue.

In such a loud place, clearly they used the head-bob to non-verbally disseminate when the snap was coming.

The other part of the problem is they never changed the interval of the silent count.

Maybe Googs coached it right but Stork was too much of a dummy. He did it fine in 2014 but with Connolly and Wendy on either side of him it wasn't an issue as fmr centers they handled the communication, protections, etc.

I think Googs getting canned was also due to the young players not improving. Might have been cultural too. Seems like Scar and Josh work great together and I never heard anything from Josh on Googs. I dunna know...

 

[Ring 6]

I think he is a big part of it but I agree- JMD and BB deserve some blame.

IIRC from Matt Light's commentary on the debacle, it wasn't the snap count/cadence that Stork f-ed up, it was tipping when the snap was coming and Googs not detecting that as an issue.

In such a loud place, clearly they used the head-bob to non-verbally disseminate when the snap was coming.

The other part of the problem is they never changed the interval of the silent count.

Maybe Googs coached it right but Stork was too much of a dummy. He did it fine in 2014 but with Connolly and Wendy on either side of him it wasn't an issue as fmr centers they handled the communication, protections, etc.

I think Googs getting canned was also due to the young players not improving. Might have been cultural too. Seems like Scar and Josh work great together and I never heard anything from Josh on Googs. I dunna know...

That's not what Light said. Light said they never varied it. There is always a trigger, you can't blame the existence of the trigger as the reason they snapped the same exact amount of time after the trigger.
This topic was mangled when it first came up as well, and unfortunately people remember the misinformation as fact.

 

[Ring 6]

You'd think different methods of snapping the ball is something you can practice even if some people are injured in a non-contact walk-through. But who knows?

I think they just totally dropped the ball and f-ed it up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wow

Injury is our #1 foe to the 5th

That's been the case every year since 2009 (Well, to a Lombardi, regardless of number)

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's not what Light said. Light said they never varied it. There is always a trigger, you can't blame the existence of the trigger as the reason they snapped the same exact amount of time after the trigger.
This topic was mangled when it first came up as well, and unfortunately people remember the misinformation as fact.

I said they never changed the interval of the count because Miller was jumping all over it not just on the head-bob but every time. You called it variance which I assume you mean silent, vocally or head-bob.

 

[Ring 6]

I said they never changed the interval of the count because Miller was jumping all over it not just on the head-bob but every time. You called it variance which I assume you mean silent, vocally or head-bob.

I'm saying raising the head (it really isn't a head bob) is the trigger. The length of time from raise head to snap ball is the problem.
If you just give that responsibility to Stork to vary it as he sees fit without instruction or telling any one, you have an offense with no snap advantage. If they did that, its terrible coaching. More likely the terrible coaching was understanding they need to communicate a snap count but failed to change it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm saying raising the head (it really isn't a head bob) is the trigger. The length of time from raise head to snap ball is the problem.

Yea they had a thing on Pats Propaganda that showed Koppen, Wendy and Stork and they all had the same bob but different time intervals b/t/w head bob/move and snap. They also utilized silent counts w/o head movement.

If you just give that responsibility to Stork to vary it as he sees fit without instruction or telling any one, you have an offense with no snap advantage. If they did that, its terrible coaching. More likely the terrible coaching was understanding they need to communicate a snap count but failed to change it.

Light said they never practiced it but I find that hard to believe. Maybe Stork went rogue during the game because he lost confidence in the coach's instruction?

 

[Ring 6]

Yea they had a thing on Pats Propaganda that showed Koppen, Wendy and Stork and they all had the same bob but different time intervals b/t/w head bob/move and snap. They also utilized silent counts w/o head movement.




Light said they never practiced it but I find that hard to believe. Maybe Stork went rogue during the game because he lost confidence in the coach's instruction?

Light assumed that.

I'm not getting how you think Stork 'went rogue'. It is not his decision of how long after the trigger to snap.

It sounds like you think that the center snaps whenever he wants.
That makes no sense, because it would give absolutely no advantage to the offense for knowing when the snap will be.
Stork is INSTRUCTED how long after the trigger to snap. Everyone on the offense is told how long it will be.

The length of time from trigger to snap is supposed to vary play to play, like a snap count. Stork isn't the guy who calls that snap count.

 

[Wheelman]

Dante says hello.

That doesn't explain something so obvious that you shouldn't be doing. So, no, that doesn't explain it. BB should have never let this ever happen.

That can be explained by Googs being a ****ty coach and Stork being a moron.

But how does BB not see this? How does he let this happen in the first place?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Light assumed that.

I'm not getting how you think Stork 'went rogue'. It is not his decision of how long after the trigger to snap.

It sounds like you think that the center snaps whenever he wants.
That makes no sense, because it would give absolutely no advantage to the offense for knowing when the snap will be.
Stork is INSTRUCTED how long after the trigger to snap. Everyone on the offense is told how long it will be.

The length of time from trigger to snap is supposed to vary play to play, like a snap count. Stork isn't the guy who calls that snap count.

No I don't think the C decides when to snap.

If we don't think the coaching staff or Brady f-ed up, then Stork did. But why?

It was known that TB had a problem w/ Stork calling the wrong protections during the 2015 season. I think this is interesting.

Clearly there was a communication breakdown between the player and the coach.

I am speculating that Stork went rogue and changed them in the huddle for whatever reason. Maybe he plain forgot what he was told because his head was so messed up. I remember Brady taking the snap a couple of times and he seemed surprised. Just so strange.

 

[RobertWeathers]

But how does BB not see this? How does he let this happen in the first place?

I have no idea dude. That type of cataclysmic breakdown just doesn't happen here.

Only think I can assume is that BB assumed Googs was working with TB and Josh on this, Googs leaves the meeting, talks to Stork about the trigger-timing/snap and assumes Stork has is down. BB assumes his coaches have coordinated on all this and Googs has been working with Stork and he didn't.

Once the game comes around, Stork is like a lost puppy and forgets what he is supposed to do.

All speculation.

All I know is at the end of the day, BB was pissed at Googs and he was wacked.

 

[Ring 6]

No I don't think the C decides when to snap.

If we don't think the coaching staff or Brady f-ed up, then Stork did. But why?

It was known that TB had a problem w/ Stork calling the wrong protections during the 2015 season. I think this is interesting.

Clearly there was a communication breakdown between the player and the coach.

I am speculating that Stork went rogue and changed them in the huddle for whatever reason. Maybe he plain forgot what he was told because his head was so messed up. I remember Brady taking the snap a couple of times and he seemed surprised. Just so strange.

OK, well there is no point discussing what we can make up.
It was coaching.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Regarding the OP, it is pretty awesome how healthy we are currently (knock on wood!)

Since 2011, I feel that if the Pats had been fully healthy each year, they would have won. There were always multiple serious injuries by the playoffs. You could say that about many teams of course, but I think our team when healthy would have beaten just about every other team at full health.

In 2014, one of the main reasons we won was due to how few injuries we had. Only Mayo and Ridley were out for the year that I recall.

This year, we lost Gronk, but it was early enough that the offense has had some time to adjust and compensate for it. The NFL is a war of attrition and we are in a great spot. Changes to the training approach that were implemented this year seem to have made a big difference.

 

[RobertWeathers]

OK, well there is no point discussing what we can make up. It was coaching.

Coaching because the didn't work on varying the silent snap the week before playing the loudest place on planet? Thats way too simple of an explanation.

Googs was part of it but not the entire part.

 

[TomPatriot]

That doesn't explain something so obvious that you shouldn't be doing. So, no, that doesn't explain it. BB should have never let this ever happen.

But how does BB not see this? How does he let this happen in the first place?

No one else pointed this out until after the game. There are a lot of things going on during a game at the college level, let alone pro. Each coach has a lot to do and there is a lot of thinking and observing that got on.

So BB and the other coaches are busy. But, ultimately, you're right. Between Googs, McD, BB, Daboll, O'Shea, Frears and so on, someone should have picked this up. So maybe there was more to it than that.