Malcolm Butler situation?

[mgteich]

I love Butler. Why wouldn't we want him back.

hmmm

Folks aren't discussing wanting him back. They are discussing trading/dumping him before the trade deadline.

With regard to 2018, few of us expect Butler to be playing for the patriots. It seems likely that some team will value him higher than Belichick will.

This is especially true since we will have 3 corners coming back: Gilmore, Rowe and J Jones. We
also are likely to have PS players and C Jones coming back to compete for backup spot(s).

 

[Angelpats]

He made a gamble on himself. If 10$mill a year was on the table and he turned that down for a bigger payday it could foolish considering he has been playing not to his standards. And if he gets injured then even worse. Sometimes when you come in undrafted and have a chance to secure yourself financially you just gotta take it.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I love Butler. Why wouldn't we want him back.

Love is a many splendid things but not a valid reason versus (a) amount of cap money already devoted to a given position, (b) cap dollar to production value of Butler or any player, (c) other areas of more pressing need yet a limited amount of overall cap dollars available to spend.

I "loved" Butler's answer to the recent question. BB and MP both suggested that the players getting time have earned it (the possible suggestion being Butler hasn't been playing to his previous level and/or potential). Couple that with Butler's comment suggesting he isn't happy with where he is at and will be fixing it(working hard), he certainly is a guy you'd love to have around IF the complex economic dynamics make sense.

 

[DarrylS]

How so? He was a restricted free agent with a 1st round tender. He had virtually no control of the situation. While they flirted with New Orleans, they ultimately didn’t find any team willing to pay a big salary AND the draft pick it would have cost. That is hardly a unique situation.

What was the agent supposed to do that he didn’t do? In what way did he “fail miserably”??

Just admit it: your obsessive hatred for the agent is based on the fact that he didn’t take a major home town discount to sign long term in NE. If he took 4 years, $23 million here, you’d be talking about what a genius he was.

I do not have "obsessive hatred" for anyone, the issue is that Butler had a "jag" for an agent.. and that impeded his ability to have made a deal for him in the last off season, either with the Pats or in some form of a trade.. Derek Simpson does not exactly strike fear in the hearts of the NFL leaders..

If Butler had a competent agent, then things may been different, it is not only about competence, but about knowing the right people in the NFL infrastructure/front offices to make things happen..

I think that Butler should be signed, but if he has been "exposed" then less compensation is due.. have contended all along that an inexperienced agent may have slowed the process..

 

[DarrylS]

He made a gamble on himself. If 10$mill a year was on the table and he turned that down for a bigger payday it could foolish considering he has been playing not to his standards. And if he gets injured then even worse. Sometimes when you come in undrafted and have a chance to secure yourself financially you just gotta take it.

He could insure himself for a lot of cash in the event of a career ending injury, remember hearing the numbers were surprisingly low from an insurance agent that was discussing this on sportstalk..

 

[RayClay]

How so? He was a restricted free agent with a 1st round tender. He had virtually no control of the situation. While they flirted with New Orleans, they ultimately didn’t find any team willing to pay a big salary AND the draft pick it would have cost. That is hardly a unique situation.

What was the agent supposed to do that he didn’t do? In what way did he “fail miserably”??

Just admit it: your obsessive hatred for the agent is based on the fact that he didn’t take a major home town discount to sign long term in NE. If he took 4 years, $23 million here, you’d be talking about what a genius he was.

The agent pumped him up as if he was a free agent holding the cards. Agent's incompetence caused the situation. Butler had been in negotiation and possibly could have a greed to a realistic contract if his agent gave him good advice.

Also, the agent thought he'd pressure BB by negotiating in the media. Great idea. BB is a pushover.

 

[XLIX]

The agent pumped him up as if he was a free agent holding the cards.

whuh huh??

Agent's incompetence caused the situation.

The agent’s incompetence caused Butler to receive a 1st round RFA tender? Whuhzuh huh what???

Butler had been in negotiation and possibly could have a greed to a realistic contract if his agent gave him good advice.

We don’t have any idea what was offered but one may safely assume the Patriots offered him less than he would get as a UFA in 2018. They made the decision to pass on short term guarantees in favor of long term gains. Butler is hardly the first athlete to do such a thing

Also, the agent thought he'd pressure BB by negotiating in the media. Great idea. BB is a pushover.

Sounds like a typical agent to me.

 

[XLIX]

I do not have "obsessive hatred" for anyone, the issue is that Butler had a "jag" for an agent.. and that impeded his ability to have made a deal for him in the last off season, either with the Pats or in some form of a trade.. Derek Simpson does not exactly strike fear in the hearts of the NFL leaders..

Whuh huh? “Strike fear”?? He’s not a military assault force, he’s an agent. When Butler is a UFA, there will be plenty of offers on table.

If Butler had a competent agent, then things may been different, it is not only about competence, but about knowing the right people in the NFL infrastructure/front offices to make things happen..

I think that Butler should be signed, but if he has been "exposed" then less compensation is due.. have contended all along that an inexperienced agent may have slowed the process..

Like Darryl, your definition of “competent agent” is one who accepts pennies on the dollar to stay in NE.

Butler took the chance to pass on short term security in favor of long term gains. Even if he has a mediocre season but stays healthy, he will make more money on the open market than NE would pay him. That statement cannot be reasonably doubted.

 

[mgteich]

Butler took the chance to pass on short term security in favor of long term gains. Even if he has a mediocre season but stays healthy, he will make more money on the open market than NE would pay him. That statement cannot be reasonably doubted.

What is questionable is whether Butler will get more money over the next few years now or whether he would have had more if he taken the RFA offer. I would note that injury risk and the risk off him not having a prowl year was and is great.

Let us say that he was offered 4 years at 11 AAV or $44M. By waiting, he will have $4M this year and will need $13.3M AAV on his next contract to break even (ignoring the value of insurance and the what he could earn by getting more money up front). If he gets a $15.3M AAV contract, he will get an additional $6M. Is it worth risking the possibility that his total will be much less. Many of us would say no.

 

[HawaiianPatsfan]

The better question is : If they do move him, what would do guys think would be an adequate return? Yes there no telling what BB is going to do, regardless of how you feel about the situation.

Personally Id be able to accept it under two certain situations. Trades for players in these positions (LB (coverage), Or SS/ Hybrid LB.

Personally I like
M.Butler and a 7th. For the Saints 2017 2nd round pick & SS Kenny Vaccaro.

Vaccaro has played at an elite level several times in his career, despite what many believe. They ask him to do way to much in that horrible defense. Their season is most likely in the gutter. Vaccaro is on his 5th year and a FA next season. I think Vaccaro in this defense would be a big upgrade over Chung ( & certainly Richards). In the years he played at an elite (top 5 at position) level, he played a very similar role to what chung does it NE's defense. Fresh start. Bill and Matt can better utilize his skills. Seeing he's on the trade market and possibly being benched, I don't think he would be to much to ask for on top of the 2nd. Also in regards to the 2nd, I look at what the Seattle gave up for Sheldon Richardson, who's on his last year also, and that guy is an idiot who will cost more to resign. This is a trade I could accept

Another :

Butler and a 3rd For Shaq Thompson.

I don't have time to explain as my wait to see the doctor is over, but yeah, Id be content with either of these trades.

 

[Sciz]

The better question is : If they do move him, what would do guys think would be an adequate return?

My guess is that if he's moved, it's going to be for less than what most people here would consider adequate. The Saints weren't willing to trade their second round pick for him last year, and I can't imagine their offer has gone up now since his play has slipped a bit, they'd be integrating him on the fly instead of during the offseason, and they're clearly not one CB from being a top team. I'm not sure the Pats would even get the Jamie Collins late 3rd return.

If that's the case, then they're better off trying to make things work for the rest of the season.

 

[XLIX]

What is questionable is whether Butler will get more money over the next few years now or whether he would have had more if he taken the RFA offer. I would note that injury risk and the risk off him not having a prowl year was and is great.

Let us say that he was offered 4 years at 11 AAV or $44M. By waiting, he will have $4M this year and will need $13.3M AAV on his next contract to break even (ignoring the value of insurance and the what he could earn by getting more money up front). If he gets a $15.3M AAV contract, he will get an additional $6M. Is it worth risking the possibility that his total will be much less. Many of us would say no.

With all due respect, you're pulling numbers completely out of thin air to make your point - not to mention that AAV is a worthless number in most contracts.

Let's say the Patriots offered 3 years, $30 million with a $12 million signing bonus. Butler sees as a UFA he could get 5 years, $60 million with an $18 million signing bonus, which would still be lower than Gilmore, so it is a good estimate. I'd play out my contract for $4 million to get that larger payday.

 

[varjao]

hmmm

Folks aren't discussing wanting him back. They are discussing trading/dumping him before the trade deadline.

With regard to 2018, few of us expect Butler to be playing for the patriots. It seems likely that some team will value him higher than Belichick will.

This is especially true since we will have 3 corners coming back: Gilmore, Rowe and J Jones. We
also are likely to have PS players and C Jones coming back to compete for backup spot(s).

There's also this thing called NFL economics that BB has mastered it, and it says you don't pay top dollar for a CB2 when you are already paying that for Gilmore and McCourty. Harmon is making a nice coin too, not top dollar but it does add in the equation. It's not that BB will not pay or doesn't want to pay Butler, but history says he won't and there are reasons for that to be prohibitive. There is a full roster of players and there's a need of balance in spending between positions, also let's not forget BB doesn't save money on special teams.

 

[varjao]

What is questionable is whether Butler will get more money over the next few years now or whether he would have had more if he taken the RFA offer. I would note that injury risk and the risk off him not having a prowl year was and is great.

Let us say that he was offered 4 years at 11 AAV or $44M. By waiting, he will have $4M this year and will need $13.3M AAV on his next contract to break even (ignoring the value of insurance and the what he could earn by getting more money up front). If he gets a $15.3M AAV contract, he will get an additional $6M. Is it worth risking the possibility that his total will be much less. Many of us would say no.

My guess is that if he's moved, it's going to be for less than what most people here would consider adequate. The Saints weren't willing to trade their second round pick for him last year, and I can't imagine their offer has gone up now since his play has slipped a bit, they'd be integrating him on the fly instead of during the offseason, and they're clearly not one CB from being a top team. I'm not sure the Pats would even get the Jamie Collins late 3rd return.

If that's the case, then they're better off trying to make things work for the rest of the season.

Those are the reasons I think Butler and his agent or whatever was dealing with this business missed a window of opportunity to cash in.

It seems that Butler's value is going down day by day and it's something that it was a very clear picture already in the offseason. He was headed to an uphill battle to keep being in the top CB conversation. It seems he's not even in this tier anymore and he's more on the "Solid/Starter/Proven veteran" tier which is not going to pay you 14 Million a year. Not even 12 I would say.

It's not the right thing to judge players by draft round where they were drafted/undrafted but we know NFL is full of dumb football executives and managers and there comes a point this kind of thing can have some influence in negotiations and I think it's exactly what's happening with Butler, these people will start to dig why he went undrafted and wonder if he is not another Belichick product and use that as a leverage. Also he is not a 24 year old entering his prime.

 

[mgteich]

With all due respect, you're pulling numbers completely out of thin air to make your point - not to mention that AAV is a worthless number in most contracts.

Let's say the Patriots offered 3 years, $30 million with a $12 million signing bonus. Butler sees as a UFA he could get 5 years, $60 million with an $18 million signing bonus, which would still be lower than Gilmore, so it is a good estimate. I'd play out my contract for $4 million to get that larger payday.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I dealt with financial analysis and contracts for over 25 years professionally. I'm no expert on NFL contracts, but I would consider suing an agent for malpractice if he suggested your approach.

The PATRIOT DEAL (salaries of 8, 10, 12)
After 3 years, he collects $42M (12, 8, 10, 12)
and is free to sign a new market contract, with the option with BUTLER
If Butler is injured or turns to an average player, he has collected $20M for 1 year (and is likely cut)

YOUR DEAL (salaries of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16)
After 3 years, he collects $40M (4, 18, 8, 1o)
and then, the TEAM has an option for 3 years at 12, 14 and 16
If Butler is injured or turn into an average player, he has collected $4M for 1 year

 

[XLIX]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I dealt with financial analysis and contracts for over 25 years professionally. I'm no expert on NFL contracts, but I would consider suing an agent for malpractice if he suggested your approach.

The PATRIOT DEAL (salaries of 8, 10, 12)
After 3 years, he collects $42M (12, 8, 10, 12)
and is free to sign a new market contract, with the option with BUTLER
If Butler is injured or turns to an average player, he has collected $20M for 1 year (and is likely cut)

YOUR DEAL (salaries of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16)
After 3 years, he collects $40M (4, 18, 8, 1o)
and then, the TEAM has an option for 3 years at 12, 14 and 16
If Butler is injured or turn into an average player, he has collected $4M for 1 year

We are having a miscommunication. In my hypothetical, I didn’t say the Patriots offer 3 years, $30 million PLUS $12 million signing bonus, I said 3 years, $30 million WITH a $12 million signing bonus.

Furthermore, first year salaries are much, much lower than you have hypothesized above. Using Gilmore as a reference, his $65 million deal has only a $5 million year one salary (even that number seems a bit unusually high compared to other, social molar deals).

If the Patriots offered Butler a deal for 3 years with a total value of $42 million, I’d be the first in line saying he would be stupid to turn that down.

 

[mgteich]

We are having a miscommunication. In my hypothetical, I didn’t say the Patriots offer 3 years, $30 million PLUS $12 million signing bonus, I said 3 years, $30 million WITH a $12 million signing bonus.

Furthermore, first year salaries are much, much lower than you have hypothesized above. Using Gilmore as a reference, his $65 million deal has only a $5 million year one salary (even that number seems a bit unusually high compared to other, social molar deals).

If the Patriots offered Butler a deal for 3 years with a total value of $42 million, I’d be the first in line saying he would be stupid to turn that down.

Thank you for correcting my error.

Yes, I understand that teams often have a low first year salary to better spread the cash.

 

[DarrylS]

Whuh huh? “Strike fear”?? He’s not a military assault force, he’s an agent. When Butler is a UFA, there will be plenty of offers on table.
Like Darryl, your definition of “competent agent” is one who accepts pennies on the dollar to stay in NE.

Butler took the chance to pass on short term security in favor of long term gains. Even if he has a mediocre season but stays healthy, he will make more money on the open market than NE would pay him. That statement cannot be reasonably doubted.

Dumbfounded to believe that you can rationalize Butler having an agent who dabbles in NFL matters as being competent, akin to someone accused of murder hiring a top notch divorce lawyer for representation..

Never implied or suggested he take less as I do not know his actual value.. Simpson seems to have overvalued Butler's net worth and thought he could strike a deal without knowing all the NFL actors and the NFL playing field..

Butler would have done better in every respect if he had a competent agent... FYI Butler was Simpsons first client, and Simpson defines his role as an agent as a "hobby"... he has only had two clients in the NFL.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

If we're all gonna decide the only reason Butler didn't start was due to "matchups", we should at least all agree then that he is no way a No. 1 corner and not worth the money he was asking for.

Don't buy it at all.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Dumbfounded to believe that you can rationalize Butler having an agent who dabbles in NFL matters as being competent, akin to someone accused of murder hiring a top notch divorce lawyer for representation..

Never implied or suggested he take less as I do not know his actual value.. Simpson seems to have overvalued Butler's net worth and thought he could strike a deal without knowing all the NFL actors and the NFL playing field..

Butler would have done better in every respect if he had a competent agent... FYI Butler was Simpsons first client, and Simpson defines his role as an agent as a "hobby"... he has only had two clients in the NFL.

You mean like Don Yee??