Making The Club From The Tub, NOT

[patchick]

I absolutely love this thread title. I also agree with your post.

FWIW, I'm totally in the other camp. I think Parcells' bon mot is given a lot more credence than it deserves, and that the four players named actually have nothing in common when it comes to evaluating their roster chances.

Fells, IMO, is a lock. He had a strong camp and looked good in the first preseason game. The Pats would have to have an awfully short attention span to jettison him for his recent time "in the tub."

Armstead's surgery is a shame, but they still sorely need him at DT. Why on earth would they cut a guy with excellent potential at a need position without giving him a chance to take the field? (And if you're saying he won't be on the 53 because he'll stay on NFI, that's not a case of "can't make the club from the tub" -- it's simply "he's still injured." Or is Gronkowski "not making the club" either?)

Dowling looked rusty in training camp, and if his current injury is related to past problems they may well cut ties, deciding he's not likely to contribute going forward. Nobody's really risen to take his job in his absence, though.

Cunningham was fighting for a roster spot from the get-go, and Benard looks like a thorough upgrade. Does anybody really think Cunningham would have won the job if he'd stayed healthy?

 

[mgteich]

The stated that
"I don't expect the following to be on the 53 if they cannot play next week."

Let's look at each player's situation. As you say, each is different.

FELLS
You say that he is a lock. I have Gronkowski and Sudfeld as locks. I don't know how many TE's we'll carry. If we don't carry an h-back (Hooman), do we need to carry more than 3 TE's. Perhaps 4 is OK to start the season, perhaps not. Ballard also has looked very solid as a blocking TE and very good in combo with Sudfeld. How should we cut. I don't know. What I do know is that Ballard is playing and Fells didn't play last week. I suggested that one more week could be critical.

ARMSTEAD
If Armstead is not ready for this game, I don't expect him to be on the 53 man roster. Call it what you will. OK, he's injured. Actually, he could be on the roster for a week and then to the in-season IR.

DOWLING
I generally agree with your comments here. I would say that Ryan has risen to take Dowling's job as the #4 corner, backed up by Cole. I think that we are covered.

CUNNINGHAM
Would Cunningham have made the team if he were healthy? Perhaps, perhaps not.

His competition is Francis, Bequette, Benard, Buchanan, Forston, Grissom, and Vellano. FIVE of these seven will likely get roster spots. COULD Cunningham have shown himself worthy of a spot over some of these guys. Certainly, the answer has to be at least "maybe". The ONLY player there that is clearly more valuable is Benard, as you indicated.

FWIW, I'm totally in the other camp. I think Parcells' bon mot is given a lot more credence than it deserves, and that the four players named actually have nothing in common when it comes to evaluating their roster chances.

Fells, IMO, is a lock. He had a strong camp and looked good in the first preseason game. The Pats would have to have an awfully short attention span to jettison him for his recent time "in the tub."

Armstead's surgery is a shame, but they still sorely need him at DT. Why on earth would they cut a guy with excellent potential at a need position without giving him a chance to take the field? (And if you're saying he won't be on the 53 because he'll stay on NFI, that's not a case of "can't make the club from the tub" -- it's simply "he's injured." Or is Gronkowski "not making the club" either?)

Dowling looked rusty in training camp, and if his current injury is related to past problems they may well cut ties, deciding he's not likely to contribute going forward. Nobody's really risen to take his job in his absence, though.

Cunningham was fighting for a roster spot from the get-go, and Benard looks like a thorough upgrade. Does anybody really think Cunningham would have won the job if he'd stayed healthy?

 

[Oswlek]

Cunningham was fighting for a roster spot from the get-go, and Benard looks like a thorough upgrade. Does anybody really think Cunningham would have won the job if he'd stayed healthy?

{Raises hand}

The Benard I heard about in camp was a layup to take Jermaine's spot. The one I've seen on the field? Total non-factor; gets pushed around in the run game by backup lineman and doesn't produce as an interior sub. Other than being quicker off the ball - something he hasn't done much with to my eye - I'm not seeing the upgrade.

I respect you a great deal, so I'd rather enjoy being educated if there is something I'm missing.

 

[Oswlek]

FELLS
You say that he is a lock. I have Gronkowski and Sudfeld as locks. I don't know how many TE's we'll carry. If we don't carry an h-back (Hooman), do we need to carry more than 3 TE's. Perhaps 4 is OK to start the season, perhaps not. Ballard also has looked very solid as a blocking TE and very good in combo with Sudfeld. How should we cut. I don't know. What I do know is that Ballard is playing and Fells didn't play last week. I suggested that one more week could be critical.

ARMSTEAD
If Armstead is not ready for this game, I don't expect him to be on the 53 man roster. Call it what you will. OK, he's injured. Actually, he could be on the roster for a week and then to the in-season IR.

I have to agree with Patchick on Armstead. Not making the club "from the tub" means being cut, not getting put on NFI. Armstead reads like a guy that the team was fully aware of the health issue that they still expect to rely on.

As for Fells, barring a miraculous return by Gronk in the next week, it is very unlikely that the team goes into week 1 with just Rob and two other TEs. Either way, it seems prudent to expect three of the non-Gronk crew to make the roster. Considering how much better Fells was according to camp reports and in the Philly game, I seriously doubt he is let go to make room for Hooman.

 

[Brady6]

{Raises hand}

The Benard I heard about in camp was a layup to take Jermaine's spot. The one I've seen on the field? Total non-factor; gets pushed around in the run game by backup lineman and doesn't produce as an interior sub. Other than being quicker off the ball - something he hasn't done much with to my eye - I'm not seeing the upgrade.

I respect you a great deal, so I'd rather enjoy being educated if there is something I'm missing.

I think you make a great point on Benard; he has not been impressive in the preseason games, and I do not think he has any business at the 3tech spot, he is a 6’2 255 pound guy who played his best football in a 3-4 as an OLB, he had a difficult time moving to a DE when the Browns made the switch to the 4-3 so I am perplexed to why we would like using him inside would be a great idea.

The interesting thing to me is when they have Francis out there at DE and him at DT, I always felt Francis was best last season inside so it would make more sense to me if they flipped their roles, then again I’m not Belichick so I’m not sure what he is trying to achieve maybe some type of unbalanced line or something of that nature. Either way I think Cunningham has a very good chance of making the roster from the tub, he was very productive as the sub 3tech prior to his suspension and all reports indicate he bulked up even more, I would not be high on the idea of entering the season without him or Armstead.

 

[mgteich]

Belichick discussed the issue of making judgments based on viewing the preseason games. He indicated that this was very difficult unless you knew their assignments and the assignments of other players.

So, I have two pieces of evidence. Everyone from seeing weeks of practice thinks that Benard is doing great,; some had him as a lock 2 weeks ago. I also have my (and your) interpretation of what we saw on the field.

I have little reason to doubt that Benard will make the 53. However, the reality is that I have little way of knowing based on my game evaluation.

I think you make a great point on Benard; he has not been impressive in the preseason games, and I do not think he has any business at the 3tech spot, he is a 6’2 255 pound guy who played his best football in a 3-4 as an OLB, he had a difficult time moving to a DE when the Browns made the switch to the 4-3 so I am perplexed to why we would like using him inside would be a great idea.

The interesting thing to me is when they have Francis out there at DE and him at DT, I always felt Francis was best last season inside so it would make more sense to me if they flipped their roles, then again I’m not Belichick so I’m not sure what he is trying to achieve maybe some type of unbalanced line or something of that nature. Either way I think Cunningham has a very good chance of making the roster from the tub, he was very productive as the sub 3tech prior to his suspension and all reports indicate he bulked up even more, I would not be high on the idea of entering the season without him or Armstead.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Making The Club From The Tub, NOT

Belichick discussed the issue of making judgments based on viewing the preseason games. He indicated that this was very difficult unless you knew their assignments and the assignments of other players.

So, I have two pieces of evidence. Everyone from seeing weeks of practice thinks that Benard is doing great,; some had him as a lock 2 weeks ago. I also have my (and your) interpretation of what we saw on the field.

I have little reason to doubt that Benard will make the 53. However, the reality is that I have little way of knowing based on my game evaluation.

I agree with your assessment of the situation, and I also think Benard will almost certainly make the roster, I'm just not so sure that his being used at the 3tech is the best use for him.

I think there are a few things to note on the subject of him playing 3tech. The first is he may be playing there out of necessity due to the fact we are workout Armstead and Cunningham along with Wilfork and Kelly both seeing minimal snaps because its the preseason. The second factor is he is not playing the 3tech next to Wilfork like he would be in the regular season, I highly doubt that Fortson is taking on 2-3 OL like Wilfork does so that likely takes away the 1on1 matchup that would allow Benard to utilize his speed to beat the RG.

 

[ATippett56]

Either way I think Cunningham has a very good chance of making the roster from the tub, he was very productive as the sub 3tech prior to his suspension and all reports indicate he bulked up even more, I would not be high on the idea of entering the season without him or Armstead.

Based upon what? Cunningham has yet to play in one preseason game and has missed numerous training camp practices to date.

 

[ATippett56]

Add Zusevics to the list too...and Ebner, as ATip56 reminded me. Armstead & Harrison to the PUP.

Zusevics is practice squad eligible.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: Making The Club From The Tub, NOT

Based upon what? Cunningham has yet to play in one preseason game and has missed numerous training camp practices to date.

He particapated in all OTA, a number of practices and has 3 years in are defense, I don't think 2 preseason games missed will be his demise, if he cut it will be because they don't think he is the same player he was early last season without PED's and I don't think that will be the case.

 

[ATippett56]

Nick Underhill @Nick_Underhill
FWIW, Armond Armstead had no visible casts or bandages or anything last night.
Optimism???

How about stitches?

 

[ATippett56]

I don't think that will be the case.

Cunningham was suspended 4 games last season for a PED violation and upon his return did not do crap.

 

[patchick]

{Raises hand}

The Benard I heard about in camp was a layup to take Jermaine's spot. The one I've seen on the field? Total non-factor; gets pushed around in the run game by backup lineman and doesn't produce as an interior sub. Other than being quicker off the ball - something he hasn't done much with to my eye - I'm not seeing the upgrade.

I respect you a great deal, so I'd rather enjoy being educated if there is something I'm missing.

Yeah, reading it over I probably overrated Benard in my post. I shouldn't have focused on him so much; to me the issue is more about Cunningham himself. As others have said, he was suspended for PEDs then looked thoroughly unimpressive after his return. He's had plenty of chance to develop and never took that leap, and I haven't seen anything to suggest this season would have been different. And it's not just Benard he's up against, but also players who will be under contract/control for longer than Cunningham: Buchanan, Francis and Bequette.

 

[manxman2601]

I think you make a great point on Benard; he has not been impressive in the preseason games, and I do not think he has any business at the 3tech spot, he is a 6’2 255 pound guy who played his best football in a 3-4 as an OLB, he had a difficult time moving to a DE when the Browns made the switch to the 4-3 so I am perplexed to why we would like using him inside would be a great idea.

The interesting thing to me is when they have Francis out there at DE and him at DT, I always felt Francis was best last season inside so it would make more sense to me if they flipped their roles, then again I’m not Belichick so I’m not sure what he is trying to achieve maybe some type of unbalanced line or something of that nature. Either way I think Cunningham has a very good chance of making the roster from the tub, he was very productive as the sub 3tech prior to his suspension and all reports indicate he bulked up even more, I would not be high on the idea of entering the season without him or Armstead.

Agree with this. Maybe BB sees the young guys in Buchanan and Bequette as the answer at DE and wants them to get more reps hence leaving Benard inside. Would much rather see Benard do what he does best and attack from the edge.

 

[DocHoliday]

Agree with this. Maybe BB sees the young guys in Buchanan and Bequette as the answer at DE and wants them to get more reps hence leaving Benard inside. Would much rather see Benard do what he does best and attack from the edge.

It might be that BB knows what Benard can do outside and is trying him inside to see if he can also contribute there.

 

[manxman2601]

It might be that BB knows what Benard can do outside and is trying him inside to see if he can also contribute there.

Fair point.

 

[mgteich]

Yup!

We need backups inside. We have Forston and Grissom.

It might be that BB knows what Benard can do outside and is trying him inside to see if he can also contribute there.

 

[Brady6]

Cunningham was suspended 4 games last season for a PED violation and upon his return did not do crap.

Really :noidea:

 

[ATippett56]

Really :noidea:

Amendola not spotted at practice - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Aug 19 2:06 PM ET

Other players not spotted at the start of practice included defensive back Brandon Jones, defensive linemen Jermaine Cunningham and Armond Armstead (non-football injury list), wide receiver Mark Harrison (non-football injury list) and tight end Rob Gronkowski (physically unable to perform list).

 

[Coach42]

Agree with this. Maybe BB sees the young guys in Buchanan and Bequette as the answer at DE and wants them to get more reps hence leaving Benard inside. Would much rather see Benard do what he does best and attack from the edge.

Maybe they liked Bernard inside for running games? Stunts etc.