Lack of improvement issue

[RobertWeathers]

Tom Brady improved between the ages of 34-38, pretty significantly, IMO.

In what ways?

We can agree that 2015 TB is better that 2001-2006 and most likely 07-09.

While the year didn't work out as we had hoped, I don't remember ever seeing a QB play as almost perfectly at 2010 TB.

I'm not sure a 38 yr old 2015 TB is better than a 33yr old 2010 TB

 

[Galeb]

One of the things BB preaches on his teams is improvement every week generally his teams get better as they go into the year and he likes to set it up like that. This year is going to be a little different in that regard though. This year compared to past years will not be able to improve much. The Patriots are a young team but also a veteran team.

Lets look at all areas

QB - No improvement. Brady will play well or play badly but he has no room to grow right now.
TE - No improvement. Gronk is a beast but he is what he is. They have other TEs but they are vets too and are clearly established players. Chandler is the upgrade and it could be argued he will get better as the year goes. I don't see it. He will play his role but at this point in his career he is what he is.
WR - No improvement. Lafell coming back is an improvement in health and not talent which is not what I am talking about. Amendola/Edelman are proven commodities and just need to stay healthy. Dobson/Martin both have room to grow but will barely be on the field once Lafell is back. It will be no improve to so slight it is barely worth mentioning
RB - The only improvement here is Lewis not fumbling Blount will be blount and Lewis has his skill set already figured out and looks like he has been playing with Brady for years. The limited route tree of RBs means the learning curve is pretty much done.
OL - People will point to this and mention the youth and improvement which can be made here. That is true. This is one of the areas which can be improved. But how much? This line is not just playing well on a curve it is playing well in generally. The better you play the less room for improvement there is and this line to me is somehow already playing like one of the better units in the NFL. When Stork comes back how much will he upgrade Andrews really? Mason/Jackson have proven to be capable pass defenders already against good DLs and have shown the ability to run block. At this point Wendell would probably be a down grade or no upgrade at all to be honest. The fact is they are not giving up much pressure and are opening decent enough holes when asked to. The run blocking can be the main improvement here but IDK how much really. Seems average already. The IOL is playing near as well as any and ths OTs are vets and will not improve at this point


On D...

DE - Not much to say here. Jones, Nink, Sheard are all vets and will not improve anymore at this point. Rookies like White/Grissom/Johnson will struggle for snaps.
DT - This is the single biggest area which can improve. Easley/Brown both are talents clearly with their best football ahead of them. I am watching this very intently.
LB - No improvement. Collins/Hightower will see the most snaps and at this point they pretty much are the players they are. Mayo for depth might get better as the year goes on but could be as good as he will be till he follow comes back from his injury (if he does... or perhaps he has already... not seeing him enough to know for sure). Just signed a depth LB that will see the field very little year if the top 3 don't change.
S - A tiny bit of improvement? McCourty is McCourty not much to say here. Chung is established with what he does well and what he does not. Harmon is no rookie so i wonder how much we will see him grow this year. The question for me is Richardson. Will he still snaps and improve upon either Chung or Harmon? Who knows. Not a sure thing at this point.
CB - This is an area with room for improvement but maybe not as much as we think. I have watched Butler all 3 games and though there are clear things he can clean up he is already to me a CB1. I don't see him as having the ability to be a shut down CB but could be wrong. I wonder just how much he can improve from where he is? Obviously some but he is already pretty good. Brown as a vet is established and just needs to stay healthy. Ryan is inconsistent and proven to be unproven. Will have good games and bad. Oddly enough (baring a FA signing) if this unit wants to improve the biggest improvement to me right now looks like it will come from Coleman. Coleman has the measurables and showed a few good things. He is young and raw and so has the most possible of the 3.

So yes there are areas we can improve as the year goes but I question how much that is. On offense it seems little to none (not that we need to improve there lol). The Defense does have a few areas to improve but it is a majority of veterans that have mostly hit their ceilings or close to.

Then again I doubt we need to improve too much to win the SB I just thought it be interest to point out how different this year is from past years.

Your posts are often insightful, but this post certainly doesn't fall into that category. There are some truly bizarre assumptions and logical leaps that you made to prove your point. This is a young, focused, hard working team that BB is obviously very fond of. It's hard to imagine such a team not improving the way most BB teams improve.

It isn't the improvement of individual players that make BB teams better later in the season, rather it is the rising level of complexity at which the team can effectively operate. The Pats have a complex system, that becomes more complicated each week. The level of complexity added is entirely dependent on the rate at which the team can understand and incorporate new concepts, something that this particular team excels at. This year's team is special, and if they stay reasonably healthy, have a great shot at another title.

 

[Angelpats]

If we equate improvement in terms of winning than they won the Super Bowl and afterwards you can either go down or try to stay at the top. You cant drastically improve much when you are world champions and at the top of your game in regards to some players.

 

[PatsDeb]

Of course we can improve, as a whole. Last year at this time, if I am not mistaken, we were 1-2 and being left for dead. We've already improved over that. We got off to a fast start, which we have not been able to do in the last few years, and we can always win more games than we did last year.

 

[Oswlek]

I have to admit that this thread confuses me. What kind of improvement are we talking about? Is it improvement over last year's team? Improvement over how the team is playing now? Potential improvement for each individual player?

More importantly, what is the point? Even if the dubious premise that the Patriots don't have the appropriate age distribution to allow for great improvement is true, so what?

 

[IllegalContact]

well......there certainly can't be an improvement over winning the super bowl

there is plenty of poetantial and room for improvement on the OL, DL, DB, RB, WR, TE
the rest can keep focusing on execution

 

[JMC00]

IMO he declined at ages 34 35 36

What an absolutely asinine and just false statement.

 

[TommyD4207]

What an absolutely asinine and just false statement.

I disagree. His QB rating went down every year, and the last two seasons were the ones where Brady was flinching at ghosts. I'd even argue he wasn't seeing the field as well, either. That might be a factor of the talent around him, but that was never an issue before then.

He seemed to be going in a natural, declining progression, to the point where this year would be the first year where he wouldn't be more than above average.

He improved last year at 37 over the previous 3 years, and improved significantly. No longer seeing ghost, trusting his receivers to be where they're supposed to be, and not over-thinking things at the LOS.

This year, he's better than last year to this point, which means to me, it's a fair statement to say he's better at 37 and 38 than he was at 34, 35 and 36.

 

[rochrist]

Not really.

IMO he declined at ages 34 35 36 but did improve at 37. However that is a particularly special case and also speaks to the fact he unknowingly let some of his game slip (particularly pocket movement in mobility which he use to do a lot more pre-2008).

It is not like he was on a positive upwaed trajectory from those ages which is the way you put it IMO.

After his injury Brady became more of a statue back there. Maybe he was unsure about his leg or maybe he just got complacent and focused too much time on pocket passing but it is clear he did not move like he did early in his career within the pocket. He was able to be amazing without being quite as mobile cause he is one of the less important parts of his game but he clearly climbs it and slides more and runs more now than he has in past years from the 2009-2013 period.

Though i think some other parts of his game have declined a bit like his down field accuracy the mobility he reclaimed more than compensates for those very minor losses.

Jeeze, at 34 all he did was throw for 5,235 yards and 39 TDs. I wish I could decline like that.

 

[rochrist]

I addressed that. I was not counting players coming back in this though it was mentioned. It is about the players who will be starters and key contributors for us this year and how much they will improve this year over last which is less.

Last year Lafell had a learning curve and this year he will not. That is the kind of thing i was focused on. IDK why people are taking this as an insult to the team. If anything it is a compliment in saying they are ahead of where they usually are.

I don't know about other people, but I'm taking it as a fairly fundamental misunderstanding of where and how teams improve.

 

[neuronet]

Anyone that has paid close attention to a BB-coached team from the beginning to end of a season could not post with this theme. Barring, God forbid, major injuries, the post just makes no sense.

This is going to be a long bye week....

 

[patsfan13]

Nice tidbit about the rookie int ol. Lots of room to improve but they are doing well so far.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-netwo...0000539122/Low-hanging-fruit-with-Mike-Mayock

 

[rochrist]

I disagree. His QB rating went down every year, and the last two seasons were the ones where Brady was flinching at ghosts. I'd even argue he wasn't seeing the field as well, either. That might be a factor of the talent around him, but that was never an issue before then.

He seemed to be going in a natural, declining progression, to the point where this year would be the first year where he wouldn't be more than above average.

He improved last year at 37 over the previous 3 years, and improved significantly. No longer seeing ghost, trusting his receivers to be where they're supposed to be, and not over-thinking things at the LOS.

This year, he's better than last year to this point, which means to me, it's a fair statement to say he's better at 37 and 38 than he was at 34, 35 and 36.

Actually, he didn't improve last year over the year he was 34. Seriously, you need to go and look at the record a bit more closely. That was his career best in yardage, career second best in TDs and third best in QB rating.

 

[JMC00]

I disagree. His QB rating went down every year, and the last two seasons were the ones where Brady was flinching at ghosts. I'd even argue he wasn't seeing the field as well, either. That might be a factor of the talent around him, but that was never an issue before then.

He seemed to be going in a natural, declining progression, to the point where this year would be the first year where he wouldn't be more than above average.

He improved last year at 37 over the previous 3 years, and improved significantly. No longer seeing ghost, trusting his receivers to be where they're supposed to be, and not over-thinking things at the LOS.

This year, he's better than last year to this point, which means to me, it's a fair statement to say he's better at 37 and 38 than he was at 34, 35 and 36.

So QB rating is the determining factor it decline? Because the "flinching at ghosts" **** is completely overplayed.


Hmm let's see

At 34 lead one of the worst defenses in the history of football to a near SB

At 35 threw only 8 INT (2nd lowest total in his career), made AFCC and using your QB rating argument had a better rating that year than in '14

At 36 His numbers were done because for almost half the year his primary receivers were Edelman and two rookie WRs.

 

[borg]

BB's preaching of improvement each week throughout the season is more in regards to execution and growing as a unit.

This!
As the season moves forward, the coaches dig deeper into the play book. The Pats typically are pass heavy in the early season...like this year....for several reasons:
1) Protect the Franchise
2) Utilize teams most prolific weapons
...but.....the O line has been transitioning with new players and new coaches for two years now......and...practice time is so limited in preseason.....so.....
3) Master one aspect of the offense......pass protection.....and the run/blocking/scheming will build over the course of the year. Typically, post "bye" is when the Pats get the ground game going
4) Defenses aren't prepared in the early season to handle sophisticated passing offenses. Every team has new players, some with new coaches. Huge advantage for a seasoned passing attack. Scores don't lie.

In seventeen weeks, this offense will be so much more diverse...we might even see another Edelman TD pass.

 

[BobDigital]

Jeeze, at 34 all he did was throw for 5,235 yards and 39 TDs. I wish I could decline like that.

So QB rating is the determining factor it decline? Because the "flinching at ghosts" **** is completely overplayed.


Hmm let's see

At 34 lead one of the worst defenses in the history of football to a near SB

At 35 threw only 8 INT (2nd lowest total in his career), made AFCC and using your QB rating argument had a better rating that year than in '14

At 36 His numbers were done because for almost half the year his primary receivers were Edelman and two rookie WRs.

You can bring up QB rating and stats if you want. But when I make my opinion on Brady's play i pretty much go by the eye test and my own personal opinion of his play. The QB rating going down 3 years in a row for those years is interesting (as someone pointed out ) but does not mean anything automatically.

It is possible a a QB's rating to go down 3 straight years and have him improve all 3 years cause stats don't tell the full story particularly in a team game. My assessment of Brady's play is based solely on my own personal interpretation of how i feel he preforms and comparing what i see this year with years past.

If you disagree with me fine. If you want to talk about stats to support your argument fine. I will not be joining that part of the discussion cause then we get in a "stat off" when you bring your stats and I bring mine. I don't see that as useful.

 

[BobDigital]

I have to admit that this thread confuses me. What kind of improvement are we talking about? Is it improvement over last year's team? Improvement over how the team is playing now? Potential improvement for each individual player?

More importantly, what is the point? Even if the dubious premise that the Patriots don't have the appropriate age distribution to allow for great improvement is true, so what?

Let me be more clear then.

I am talking about where the team is now to how much better the team can get. I am comparing that to past patriot years at this point. I am not counting injured players coming back as improvement cause a lot of years we had pup guys coming back or suspended guys coming and it we would need to painstakingly go through each year to see how many and argue how impactful it was. To put in a context which does not fit but is easy to understand right now this team to me appears to be an A- and we hope to make it an A, A+ or A++

Most years at this point I feel the team is in more of a B range and trying to become a A or A+

I hope that makes it more clear. And to your question "what is the point?" and "So what?" Just thought it be interesting to contrast these years team with past teams and there is a bye week so I figured it be a good time to roll something like this out.

 

[rochrist]

You can bring up QB rating and stats if you want. But when I make my opinion on Brady's play i pretty much go by the eye test and my own personal opinion of his play. The QB rating going down 3 years in a row for those years is interesting (as someone pointed out ) but does not mean anything automatically.

It is possible a a QB's rating to go down 3 straight years and have him improve all 3 years cause stats don't tell the full story particularly in a team game. My assessment of Brady's play is based solely on my own personal interpretation of how i feel he preforms and comparing what i see this year with years past.

If you disagree with me fine. If you want to talk about stats to support your argument fine. I will not be joining that part of the discussion cause then we get in a "stat off" when you bring your stats and I bring mine. I don't see that as useful.

So your eye test told you a QB who threw for 5,235 yds and 39 TDs was in decline?

 

[BobDigital]

So your eye test told you a QB who threw for 5,235 yds and 39 TDs was in decline?

Compared to the previous year? Yes.

Edit: Also it is not like he suddenly got a lot worse. People think "decline" and go to washed up has been. When I used decline it just means not as good. It was a very small amount but in my opinion he played worse in 2011 than 2010 and worse in 2012 than 2011 and worst in 2013 than 2012. However he was still one of the top 2 QBs at the minimum all those years. We are talking very small declines but declines none the less IMO.

 

[rochrist]

Compared to the previous year? Yes.

That was 1,335 yards and 3 TDs more than the previous year.