Kraft regrets giving Belichick so much power without “checks and balances” in place.

[1960Pats]

On the absolute loon part, I read a lot of Dr. Z’s columns during his heyday but don’t remember much of them. I do remember the only radio interview I ever heard him on. He clearly didn’t want to be there and gave one word or short answers to open ended questions. For example, the hosts asked him about the draft prospects of a standout receiver. His response was “I haven’t looked at him.” The hosts realized this was terrible radio and ended it early.

Zimmerman was also one of those HOF voters who was proud of his biases, pro and con. He said something to the effect that Ken Stabler would only get into the HOF over his dead body. When Stabler was inducted, he had already passed away and Zimmerman was either also dead or medically incapacitated to the point he couldn’t argue against him. I don’t know what his grudge was against Stabler, but it seems pretty pointless in retrospect.

Voter bias is why the HOF's are a joke.

 

[1960Pats]

Mac Jones was a bottom of the 120

Bill wanted a #15 QB like Baker Mayfield.

Garoppolo wouldve been a #20 if only he could stay healthy.

Remember, the Giants won with Simms and then Bruner. Or that West Virginia guy. Simms was like a #10-15 and the others were more like #20-25.

Then Belichick saw Eli beat him twice.

He saw that Vinny Testaverde could win you a game in the playoffs.

I was speaking about now, not back in the day. It sure seems like the team that wins now is the one with the best QB. Maybe it has to do with the rule changes and teams being somewhat equal everywhere else.

 

[Jackson 2]

Looking at the 50MM claim, overthecap.com (actually $36,797,494), I’m horrified to see the numbers for Onwenu, Peppers, Barmore and Stevenson going out 4 or 5 years! Extending these BB draftees at numbers BB, I believe, would have never proposed only highlights the fact that Kraft, Inc doesn’t have the fortitude/confidence to blaze their own trail.

They would rather blame BB for the roster than remake it in new Patriot way.

Energy time Kraft opens his mouth about Belichick, he simultaneously accomplishes two things: 1) he looks like a pathetic,vengeful dink, and 2) he makes Bill a more sympathetic figure.

 

[Triumph]

Watched BB last night breaking down the upcoming KC vs SF game and the plays that SF had, but screwed up that would have won them the 2023 SB.

He was excellent.

 

[Pape]

My disagreement with you has nothing to do with Bill in particular. I just don't value coaching all that much because it's a fairly simple thing to do. And in this case Brady himself showed us that when he left here and immediately won a SB with Kukla, Fran and Ollie as his coaches, while Bill stumbled his way to losing season after losing season here.

Unfortunately, Bill compounded our problems by dumping some all-time greats on offense with three of them winning 4 SB rings on other teams right after they left here. It doesn't get any clearer that Brady, Gronk and Thuney didn't need Bill. He needed them.

Coaches don't win games. Players do. Even Bill knows that.

You know, you can disagree with me... But you will never convince me I'm wrong. Why you might ask... Well I will tell you... So sit back and relax and learn why

Your fatal mistake is allowing the argument of one or the other to take hold... it's a logical fallacy from the start, because simply put Football is a team sport... Players come and go. Coaches come and go... Once in a while you get a group of players and coaches that are special,which is what we experienced for 20 years... It's a balancing act of relationships over an extended period... The players play, but it's the coaches who do the dance trying to keep everything running smoothly... Both play off of each other.

No matter how good a coach is, no matter how good a player is, they cannot do it alone... This circles back to concept of "team sport"... 53 guys... Brady and his teammates played their hearts out ... Driven to achieve... And all the while belichick worked to keep things pointed in the same direction...Take one of the two out and the team is no longer balanced... They don't have the level of success apart that they had together... It was never been done before... and while it is being challenged now by the chiefs, its a rare feat that does not happen on the regular... Dynastys rise, they fall, rarely do they maintain a level of excellence over a two decade span...

That you complain about roster management underlines just how important a coach is to a franchise... As important as a player? No, especially a star player... But without the vision and preparation that a coach provides, what do you have but a collection of guys wearing the same jersey...

Did Belichick make mistakes? Sure did. Let guys leave that he should have kept? Yup, no doubt. Screw up some coaching hires? Indeed. But he also found guys that fell thru the cracks, developed them, turned them into players ... Developed guys who became pretty good coaches while here, who knew how to use the players strengths and weaknesses to the teams best advantage... he stood there thru the good and bad, praising his players when they did well, took the blame when it didn't... when **** hit the fan, he was the one who took the scorn and abuse, as much he could... whats that worth? the guy we have now is 6 weeks in and has already thrown the players under the bus... Did Bill lose his fastball at the end? Yeah, but the guy was 70...

While you blame Belichick for the mistakes he made, you never bring up the players mistakes... The guys who dog it... The guys who weren't professional in their profession... N'keal Harry is a great example of this... What's your first thought? Draft bust...Bill made a bad pick... Fine, but where is the accountability of the player to practice hard, to play even harder in the games? Funny, we never hear the latter, only the former when it's brought up... Maybe if he worked harder, things would have turned out differently? But such is the state of football today - players get all the credit for winning, coaches get all the blame for losing...

You can have the greatest collection of players on one roster... But unless someone is there to guide them, they won't win squat because teams are more than their component parts... the coach builds the team... he brings them together, and that's the value of a coach... its why coaches are more than just a replaceable cog in the machine... Belichick and Brady clicked... To steal from Sebastian Junger, together they were the Perfect Storm... Tom doesn't have 7 rings without Belichick. Bill doesn't have 6 rings without Brady.


Tldr: piss off... If I'm going to take the time to write it, you can spend two minutes reading it

 

[vicspats]

No. I was just **** posting. You know, showing solidarity with all the other **** posting in this thread from my fellow Patsfans brothers and sisters...

Now ya gettin it !!!

 

[vicspats]

Remember in 2004 when Troy Brown and Earthwind Moreland were playing DB. That was a catastrophic situation. We won the SB. In those days we said "next guy up," not "this is catastrophic".

Probly nothing to do with coaching.

 

[upstater1]

I was speaking about now, not back in the day. It sure seems like the team that wins now is the one with the best QB. Maybe it has to do with the rule changes and teams being somewhat equal everywhere else.

Well, so was I. Mahomes and Brady make it seem like it's all about the QBs, but if you look beyond them there's a lot of mediocrity. Nick Foles, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, Jalen Hurts, Jimmy Garoppolo.

It really can be done with QBs ranked 15-20.

I don't think you can win with #25 though.

When people make the point about Brady going to the Bucs and winning, I always ask, what if Brady had stayed with the Patriots and Belichick went to the Bucs instead?

The Pats defense was old and couldn't stop the Bills from punting. Could Brady overcome that with whoever as head coach?

What if Belichick headed to the Bucs and had Baker Mayfield as QB along with a roster of 12 Pro Bowlers?

Who comes out on top?

 

[vicspats]

Looking at the 50MM claim, overthecap.com (actually $36,797,494), I’m horrified to see the numbers for Onwenu, Peppers, Barmore and Stevenson going out 4 or 5 years! Extending these BB draftees at numbers BB, I believe, would have never proposed only highlights the fact that Kraft, Inc doesn’t have the fortitude/confidence to blaze their own trail.

They would rather blame BB for the roster than remake it in new Patriot way.

Remember the time we extended Lane and Rucci?? Good times

 

[Pape]

My disagreement with you has nothing to do with Bill in particular. I just don't value coaching all that much because it's a fairly simple thing to do. And in this case Brady himself showed us that when he left here and immediately won a SB with Kukla, Fran and Ollie as his coaches, while Bill stumbled his way to losing season after losing season here.

Unfortunately, Bill compounded our problems by dumping some all-time greats on offense with three of them winning 4 SB rings on other teams right after they left here. It doesn't get any clearer that Brady, Gronk and Thuney didn't need Bill. He needed them.

Coaches don't win games. Players do. Even Bill knows that.

Brady went to a team that had a QB throw for over 5100 yards... Was held back by that same QB throwing 30 interceptions... They were primed to win. Needed the final piece which was Brady. But ask yourself, how long was that success sustained? it wasn't... one and done... why?

Belichick had to replace the greatest to ever play. With a roster built to try and maximize his talents. A much harder task, no?

 

[vicspats]

No confusion at all, it was the combination of Belichick and Brady that brought them 6 Lombardi’s, unless you believe that Seymour, Wilfork, Vrabel, Gronk and all the other great players Belichick surrounded Brady with didn’t matter?

Plus Bill instrumental in building that team…

 

[RobertWeathers]

Looking at the 50MM claim, overthecap.com (actually $36,797,494), I’m horrified to see the numbers for Onwenu, Peppers, Barmore and Stevenson going out 4 or 5 years! Extending these BB draftees at numbers BB, I believe, would have never proposed only highlights the fact that Kraft, Inc doesn’t have the fortitude/confidence to blaze their own trail.

They would rather blame BB for the roster than remake it in new Patriot way.

Are you saying they should or should not have extended those players?

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Energy time Kraft opens his mouth about Belichick, he simultaneously accomplishes two things: 1) he looks like a pathetic,vengeful dink, and 2) he makes Bill a more sympathetic figure.

Kraft is ensuring coaches don't want to come to the Pats. What high profile OC is going to want to work under Mayo with an owner that continues to act this way? As you say he is acting like a pathetic, vengeful dink.

 

[RobertWeathers]

On the absolute loon part, I read a lot of Dr. Z’s columns during his heyday but don’t remember much of them. I do remember the only radio interview I ever heard him on. He clearly didn’t want to be there and gave one word or short answers to open ended questions. For example, the hosts asked him about the draft prospects of a standout receiver. His response was “I haven’t looked at him.” The hosts realized this was terrible radio and ended it early.

Zimmerman was also one of those HOF voters who was proud of his biases, pro and con. He said something to the effect that Ken Stabler would only get into the HOF over his dead body. When Stabler was inducted, he had already passed away and Zimmerman was either also dead or medically incapacitated to the point he couldn’t argue against him. I don’t know what his grudge was against Stabler, but it seems pretty pointless in retrospect.

Pointless but it's debatable Stable was a HoF QB.

Dr Z was rough around the edges no question.

 

[Dec54]

Kraft is ensuring coaches don't want to come to the Pats. What high profile OC is going to want to work under Mayo with an owner that continues to act this way? As you say he is acting like a pathetic, vengeful dink.

I'm no BB lover after how he left the club in such a mess. But Kraft should keep his mouth shut, or one day BB is going to pour it all out. Then best we hide under a table.

 

[Bill Lee]

x

 

[Huckleberry1]

Kraft is ensuring coaches don't want to come to the Pats. What high profile OC is going to want to work under Mayo with an owner that continues to act this way? As you say he is acting like a pathetic, vengeful dink.

Fortunately these job openings are so few that owners are always able to get high quality candidates. But Kraft really should shut his piehole.

 

[Wax Frog]

Kraft really should shut his piehole.

One can dream...

 

[XLIX]

You claimed no one thought the Browns were a contender.

Oh really? Where did I say that? Now if we want to look at what I *actually* said, what i said was:

“That’s a VERY generous way to describe a single Wild Card victory.” (In response to you saying Cleveland was a Super Bowl contender)

And….

“Some jerkoff picking a team to win the Super Bowl does not make them “a Super Bowl contender.”

You need to work on the old reading comprehension, my ignorant friend

I stated one from a reputable sports journalist/fmr player. You were wrong. Own it.

All you are doing is inventing things I never said and calling those made up statements “wrong”.

Try responding to what I ACTUALLY said next time.

Paul Zimmerman knew his ****. Marginalizing his commentary and knowledge to support your argument is pretty weak.

He can be the greatest columnist in the history of the world, but Super Bowl predictions made in August are beyond worthless - no matter who makes ‘em.

This genius you speak so highly of picked the Bills to win the Super Bowl 3 straight years. How’d that work out for him.

The 1994 Browns were a good team with the #1 D in the NFL and had improved going into 1995. The AFC was wide open and had a legitimate shot to go to the SB. Anyone who followed football back then knew that. You clearly didn't.
.

Everyone has got a great shot of going to the Super Bowl - in August.

All I did in this thread was point out that the Browns under Belichick won one single WC game. That is 100% an undisputed fact. Ignoring how that fact completely triggered you, all you’ve responded with is “they were predicted to…” and “they were considered…”

If predictions make team contenders then Dallas is the best team in the NFL over the past 10 years.

 

[upstater1]

I'm no BB lover after how he left the club in such a mess. But Kraft should keep his mouth shut, or one day BB is going to pour it all out. Then best we hide under a table.

"Left them in such a mess..."

Should they have gone to AFC championships forever?

I don't understand the total unwillingness to even imagine a rebuild needed to take place.