Kraft acknowledges drafting woes, says approach is changing

[Deus Irae]

I will say that over the course of 19 years or so BB has been very good at getting talent when needed. Otherwise there is no way the Patriots could have been so dominant so long.

 

[davidjc]

Hey I agree TB was a huge part of it. And I am tending towards being the majority of the reason. But I want to give BB his dues. The thing about TB is he is part "coach" and has the best position on the team to lead from. I am waiting to see if BB can replicate that success with another talented QB. I tend to think it won't happen again but all in all there is no way you can call BB a bad coach, or in my book even an average coach.

There were a lot of adjustments BB made in half times that totally changed the course of some major games. The patriots have always been a very well coached and run team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Hey I agree TB was a huge part of it. And I am tending towards being the majority of the reason. But I want to give BB his dues. The thing about TB is he is part "coach" and has the best position on the team to lead from. I am waiting to see if BB can replicate that success with another talented QB. I tend to think it won't happen again but all in all there is no way you can call BB a bad coach, or in my book even an average coach.

There were a lot of adjustments BB made in half times that totally changed the course of some major games. The patriots have always been a very well coached and run team.

You're not just giving BB his due. You're showing yourself to be another of the honks. The Patriots didn't win as much as they did because BB found that scrub who could take 5 snaps at LB. The Patriots won as much as they did because of the 199th pick of the 2000 NFL draft. That doesn't mean that BB is a crap coach, or even that he's not a top level all-time coach. It just means that the G.O.A.T. QB was the difference.

And anyone who saw what Brady did with the 2001, 2006, 2011, and/or 2013 teams, and even the 2019 team, should know that.

 

[davidjc]

You're not just giving BB his due. You're showing yourself to be another of the honks. The Patriots didn't win as much as they did because BB found that scrub who could take 5 snaps at LB. The Patriots won as much as they did because of the 199th pick of the 2000 NFL draft. That doesn't mean that BB is a crap coach, or even that he's not a top level all-time coach. It just means that the G.O.A.T. QB was the difference.

And anyone who saw what Brady did with the 2001, 2006, 2011, and/or 2013 teams, and even the 2019 team, should know that.

Na I am being level headed in my assessment. I don't feel that you are. I like TB as much as anyone else. He is the reason I started watching the Pats. But football is a team effort. As great as TB is he did not get it done a lone and he did not get it done with awful rosters. There was always enough talent to make it possible and the schemes changed season from season and even game to game based on what personnel they had available.

BB was largely responsible for these scheme changes and adjustments. I have him on par with the HC of the Chiefs and some of the other really sharp coaches out there. The problem I have is people going too far with their arguments against BB. In particular personnel and talent acquisition. He did a fairly good job considering they went through no major rebuilds in 19 years.

As much as I love TB, put him on the Detroit Lions and see if he can sniff a Super Bowl. I have TB as the GOAT like everyone else but BB is also a great coach as well. Like I said I am genuinely curious if he can replicate success with another top 5 QB. So far with Cam Newton we are not going to really get to see that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Na I am being level headed in my assessment.

Not even remotely true

 

[Pats1971]

Hey I agree TB was a huge part of it. And I am tending towards being the majority of the reason. But I want to give BB his dues. The thing about TB is he is part "coach" and has the best position on the team to lead from. I am waiting to see if BB can replicate that success with another talented QB. I tend to think it won't happen again but all in all there is no way you can call BB a bad coach, or in my book even an average coach.

There were a lot of adjustments BB made in half times that totally changed the course of some major games. The patriots have always been a very well coached and run team.

I do not think there will be another Brady. Forget talent and things like that, the things that separated Brady, were things that players just don't do. Someone would have to be willing to devout their entire life to the game, make it so its not about money, make it so they have the leadership that can make any player believe. Continue to work to get better your entire career. Too many QB's develop early on a sense of being where they do not feel they owe anything else. Brady always felt even after unmatched success that he was still trying to prove something. There are many other things I could name, but I just dont see that ever happening again. With that said Bill is great enough at coach that he can have success if things fall into place. But a coach can only do so much at some point the players have to perform.

 

[Pats1971]

Na I am being level headed in my assessment. I don't feel that you are. I like TB as much as anyone else. He is the reason I started watching the Pats. But football is a team effort. As great as TB is he did not get it done a lone and he did not get it done with awful rosters. There was always enough talent to make it possible and the schemes changed season from season and even game to game based on what personnel they had available.

BB was largely responsible for these scheme changes and adjustments. I have him on par with the HC of the Chiefs and some of the other really sharp coaches out there. The problem I have is people going too far with their arguments against BB. In particular personnel and talent acquisition. He did a fairly good job considering they went through no major rebuilds in 19 years.

As much as I love TB, put him on the Detroit Lions and see if he can sniff a Super Bowl. I have TB as the GOAT like everyone else but BB is also a great coach as well. Like I said I am genuinely curious if he can replicate success with another top 5 QB. So far with Cam Newton we are not going to really get to see that.

Being the most valuable to a team does not mean only valuable. Yes other positions have to be field, but there were years that this team way over played compared to what they had on the field and to me that was because of the QB. There is no argument with me on Belichick, but he also does not play, and the greatest schemes ever does not guarantee a player will perform. The coaches coach and the players play. They actually did go through rebuilds in the last 20 years. 2007 and 2009 jumped to the front, the difference was when you have Brady at a QB. A rebuilding year is 10-6 not 7-9. A bad year is not making the superbowl. AS far as the old argument put Brady on this team and see what he does. Well Brady was put on two teams in his career. The first one was a team that had 13 total playoff wins in 40 years and never won a superbowl. That team after Brady went on to win 6 and have 31 playoff games. Then he was put on a team that has the worst win loss record in football history for a franchise, and had not won a playoff game in 18 years when he showed up, they went on to win the superbowl that year. So when you say well go put him on this team and see what he does...I have two examples where he was put on that kind of team and lets say he did pretty good.

 

[venecol]

Kraft needs to butt out, or risk becoming Jerruh 2.0.

Lmao, Kraft and Jerry are nothing alike. Jerry hires pretty young girls to put up with his perversions. Kraft likes slumming at the local strip mall.

 

[Deus Irae]

Na I am being level headed in my assessment. I don't feel that you are. I like TB as much as anyone else. He is the reason I started watching the Pats. But football is a team effort. As great as TB is he did not get it done a lone and he did not get it done with awful rosters. There was always enough talent to make it possible and the schemes changed season from season and even game to game based on what personnel they had available.

BB was largely responsible for these scheme changes and adjustments. I have him on par with the HC of the Chiefs and some of the other really sharp coaches out there. The problem I have is people going too far with their arguments against BB. In particular personnel and talent acquisition. He did a fairly good job considering they went through no major rebuilds in 19 years.

As much as I love TB, put him on the Detroit Lions and see if he can sniff a Super Bowl. I have TB as the GOAT like everyone else but BB is also a great coach as well. Like I said I am genuinely curious if he can replicate success with another top 5 QB. So far with Cam Newton we are not going to really get to see that.

Even ignoring the Cleveland years...



Bill Belichick:

21 years as the HC of the NEP


18 years as the HC of the Brady-led NEP, # of sub .500 seasons as the HC of the Brady-led NEP = 0
18 years as the HC of the Brady-led NEP, # of seasons missing the playoffs as the HC of the Brady-led NEP = 1

3 years as the HC of the Brady-less NEP, # of sub .500 seasons as the HC of the Brady-less NEP = 2
3 years as the HC of the Brady-less NEP, # of seasons missing the playoffs as the HC of the Brady-less NEP = 3

Bill Belichick Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Straight facts, homie.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lmao, Kraft and Jerry are nothing alike. Jerry hires pretty young girls to put up with his perversions. Kraft likes slumming at the local strip mall.

....or dating co-eds.

I think Early Bird is now dating a doctor of some sort. Seemed like an upscale, classy lady

 

[RobertWeathers]

Even ignoring the Cleveland years...



Bill Belichick:

21 years as the HC of the NEP


18 years as the HC of the Brady-led NEP, # of sub .500 seasons as the HC of the Brady-led NEP = 0
18 years as the HC of the Brady-led NEP, # of seasons missing the playoffs as the HC of the Brady-led NEP = 1

3 years as the HC of the Brady-less NEP, # of sub .500 seasons as the HC of the Brady-less NEP = 2
3 years as the HC of the Brady-less NEP, # of seasons missing the playoffs as the HC of the Brady-less NEP = 3

Bill Belichick Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Straight facts, homie.

2 of the 3 of the Brady-less seasons were rebuild/reboots and the 3rd was an 11-5 campaign in which he had a solid roster.

 

[Pats1971]

2 of the 3 of the Brady-less seasons were rebuild/reboots and the 3rd was an 11-5 campaign in which he had a solid roster.

Actually he had a 16-0 roster. 11-5 is a good year, but in reality it was losing 5 more games than they did the year prior with a Qb who won 10 games and made the playoffs with a average chiefs team. Again Saying a coach needs players and especially a QB to win much is not a knock on the coach. There are plenty of coaches that have good QB's can cannot win. No coach can get as much out of players as Bill can, and his in game coaching is great, but he still needs players.

 

[Calhoun44]

Being the most valuable to a team does not mean only valuable. Yes other positions have to be field, but there were years that this team way over played compared to what they had on the field and to me that was because of the QB. There is no argument with me on Belichick, but he also does not play, and the greatest schemes ever does not guarantee a player will perform. The coaches coach and the players play. They actually did go through rebuilds in the last 20 years. 2007 and 2009 jumped to the front, the difference was when you have Brady at a QB. A rebuilding year is 10-6 not 7-9. A bad year is not making the superbowl. AS far as the old argument put Brady on this team and see what he does. Well Brady was put on two teams in his career. The first one was a team that had 13 total playoff wins in 40 years and never won a superbowl. That team after Brady went on to win 6 and have 31 playoff games. Then he was put on a team that has the worst win loss record in football history for a franchise, and had not won a playoff game in 18 years when he showed up, they went on to win the superbowl that year. So when you say well go put him on this team and see what he does...I have two examples where he was put on that kind of team and lets say he did pretty good.

I don't know, we have never seen Brady on a team not coached by BB with a sub-par roster. Last year in TB that team was (and still is loaded). If they don't repeat or at least get to the NFCCG they will be considered underperforming. If Brady is smart, he should jump from team to team that has a great roster and keep winning SB's, instead of dealing with a rebuild in TB. maybe the Patriots will be ready for him next year with the TE's and add a #1 WR in the draft. Tom can finish out his career once the NEP are rebuilt??? Personally, I'm ready to move on, but Kraft and BB might be working the master plan as we speak.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Actually he had a 16-0 roster. 11-5 is a good year, but in reality it was losing 5 more games than they did the year prior with a Qb who won 10 games and made the playoffs with a average chiefs team. Again Saying a coach needs players and especially a QB to win much is not a knock on the coach. There are plenty of coaches that have good QB's can cannot win. No coach can get as much out of players as Bill can, and his in game coaching is great, but he still needs players.

If you look at the greatest coaches in NFL history, once they lost their HoF qb they became mediocre or ok but never won SBs w/o them.

BB will most likely fall in that category and there is no shame in it.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

If you look at the greatest coaches in NFL history, once they lost their HoF qb they became mediocre or ok but never won SBs w/o them.

BB will most likely fall in that category and there is no shame in it.

there’s no getting through to the Brady worshippers...

 

[Jovak]

The reasons the Patriots had a 20 year run of success were because they had a hall of fame QB and head coach. But also because of the way that Belichick the GM maintained a strong roster by outstanding drafting, trades, free agent signings, and salary cap management.

Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are also hall of fame QB's but have only been to 1 super bowl each. It takes a lot more than a hall of fame QB to have a dynasty.

 

[amfootball]

The reasons the Patriots had a 20 year run of success were because they had a hall of fame QB and head coach. But also because of the way that Belichick the GM maintained a strong roster by outstanding drafting, trades, free agent signings, and salary cap management.

Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are also hall of fame QB's but have only been to 1 super bowl each. It takes a lot more than a hall of fame QB to have a dynasty.

Rodgers and Brees are not in the same zip code as Brady. Watching him win with Arians in his first season with no off-season should have cemented that for you.

 

[davidjc]

Not even remotely true

Na since you did not care to elaborate I will take that as a sign it's too much of an emotional topic for you. I mean what shall we say to appease you? BB is a trash head coach? I can't do that. The man is a very effective head coach and I think the entire NFL would would agree with that. Without a top tier QB BB is mortal. But without a reasonably talented team so is TB.

Like I said I give TB the majority of the credit for the NE accolades but BB is still a very good coach.

 

[davidjc]

Rodgers and Brees are not in the same zip code as Brady. Watching him win with Arians in his first season with no off-season should have cemented that for you.

Tend to agree for the most part. However TB gets it done in ways that are really only becoming apparent now. The fact of the matter is TB is really almost like another head coach. And one that has been playing football for 25 years. And one that has been studying the game that long. Not only that this head coach is a perfectionist and still actively plays football at the games most important position and can still sling it hard and accurate.

TB beats these other QB's off the field and not on the field. He has teams beat before he takes a step onto the field. That is what separates TB from the rest. It looks like "system" play or "good fortune" but really its Brady getting himself and his teammates ready to play every game day and then making virtually zero mental errors in the passing game with pinpoint accuracy and high velocity.

 

[Deus Irae]

The reasons the Patriots had a 20 year run of success were because they had a hall of fame QB and head coach. But also because of the way that Belichick the GM maintained a strong roster by outstanding drafting, trades, free agent signings, and salary cap management.

Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are also hall of fame QB's but have only been to 1 super bowl each. It takes a lot more than a hall of fame QB to have a dynasty.

First, if I make any errors regarding a QB or two, my apologies. They aren't intentional, but it's become a bit of a zoo here, and I might miss an edit or two. Second,

Sure, in a game that has offense, defense, and special teams, you can't win with one player. So "It takes more than just a HOF QB" is a meaningless position to take, really. The reality is that, while there are a few exceptions, there are two ways to win the SB. You either have a Hall of Fame QB, or you have a historically great defense. If you don't have either of those, you'd better either have Joe Gibbs coaching you, or have your QB get hot at just the right time.

Even most of the elite QBs max out at 1-2 SB wins, and the reason for that isn't because their teams lacked talent every year they didn't win the SB, so I don't think you're making the point you think you are. There have been 55 Super Bowls.


Brady's won 7 SBs
Montana won 4 SBs
Bradshaw won 4 SBs
Aikman won 3 SBs
Eli won 2 SBs
Peyton won 2 SBs
Roethlisberger's won 2 SBs
Elway won 2 SBs
Plunkett won 2 SBs
Griese won 2 SBs
Staubach won 2 SBs
Starr won 2 SBs


So, out of 55 wins, 34 were won by repeaters, leaving 21 for one-offs. Nine of those one-offs were won by HOFers*. Also, two of those I list as a non-HOFer one-offs are Wilson and Mahomes, each of whom seems well on his way to becoming a HOFer. So we're looking at 45 of 55 SB wins being won by QBs who either are, or most certainly will be, in the HOF> And almost every single non-HOF one-off winner got his title by riding the coattails of a historically great defense**.

Just using the G.O.A.T. as an example, Brady's beaten 7 different QBs in the SB, keeping 4 from ever winning it, and keeping 3 from getting their second SB win. And New England wasn't a clearly superior team to all others in the league for most of those wins, and did not always win when it was the league's best team. In fact, the Patriots team that was perhaps the best NFL team of all time lost to Eli and the Giants, in 2007.


Basically, I see 5 SB wins where we say something like "Given that QB, and that Less than elite Defense, that team doesn't fit the pattern", and they are the wins with Foles, Eli, and Plunkett as the QBs.



*single win SBs who are, or obviously will be, HOFers:

Unitas
Dawson
Namath
Stabler
Young
Favre
Warner
Rodgers (will obviously be HOF)
Brees (will obviously be HOF)



**The twelve non-HOFers (as of now) who've won one SB (Of the obvious non-HOFers, only Foles really stands out as an exception to the HOF (or likely HOF) QB/Truly elite or Historic defense/Joe Gibbs coached method of winning the SB):

McMahon
Simms
Johnson
Hostetler
Theisman
Williams
Rypien
Dilfer
Wilson
Foles
Flacco
Mahomes