Jones, Hightower and Dennard make second year leap.

[Mike the Brit]

I am not sure if you boys saw this article but I thought it was a really cool concept put together by Bedard: Mario Williams, J.J. Watt lead NFL in new pass-rush statistic | The MMQB with Peter King

This is great -- thanks for sharing. It's as good a compromise between objective fact and eye-test judgement as we're likely to get. I'd be curious, though, about team statistics.

 

[JackBauer]

Absolutely, positively insane. Not only is Hightower nowhere in the same universe as Von Miller, he has done nothing LIKE "coming into his own," unless "his own" means a level of mediocrity that is extremely specific to Dont'a Hightower.

He is slow, disappointing and not yet even close to a playmaker. I want desperately for your post to be true. I don't disbelieve that it's possible the guy can improve, but he hasn't. This is ridiculous.

Wow. That second to last sentence would really give people the impression you haven't watched a single game this year.

 

[primetime]

Hightower struck me from the minute he was drafted as a low-ceiling, high-floor type guy. A lunchpail 10-year starter as a linebacker, but never one who's going to wow anybody. Thus far, that's proven pretty accurate. He's surprisingly decent in coverage, but that's about it. He's not going to be Luke Kuechly or Patrick Willis, and he's not going to be Tamba Hali or Von Miller. I think his ceiling is probably 2007 Adalius Thomas, but that also seems like a very achievable goal.

Dennard, on the other hand, looks like a solid starting CB and Chandler Jones is progressing into a truly disruptive pass rushing force, which is something this team has lacked since... Colvin? Vrabel? And those guys (at least in terms of pass rushing, Vrabel did a lot more than that) are probably Jones' floor at this point.

Aside from the still head-scratcher of Tavon Wilson, last year's rookie draft class seems pretty good.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Hightower struck me from the minute he was drafted as a low-ceiling, high-floor type guy. A lunchpail 10-year starter as a linebacker, but never one who's going to wow anybody. Thus far, that's proven pretty accurate. He's surprisingly decent in coverage, but that's about it. He's not going to be Luke Kuechly or Patrick Willis, and he's not going to be Tamba Hali or Von Miller. I think his ceiling is probably 2007 Adalius Thomas, but that also seems like a very achievable goal.

Donta Hightower will be Donta Hightower..... who said anything about Kuechly or Willis?

 

[s3antana5757]

Hightower struck me from the minute he was drafted as a low-ceiling, high-floor type guy. A lunchpail 10-year starter as a linebacker, but never one who's going to wow anybody. Thus far, that's proven pretty accurate. He's surprisingly decent in coverage, but that's about it. He's not going to be Luke Kuechly or Patrick Willis, and he's not going to be Tamba Hali or Von Miller. I think his ceiling is probably 2007 Adalius Thomas, but that also seems like a very achievable goal.

Dennard, on the other hand, looks like a solid starting CB and Chandler Jones is progressing into a truly disruptive pass rushing force, which is something this team has lacked since... Colvin? Vrabel? And those guys (at least in terms of pass rushing, Vrabel did a lot more than that) are probably Jones' floor at this point.

Aside from the still head-scratcher of Tavon Wilson, last year's rookie draft class seems pretty good.

I've liked what I've seen from Hightower. Yes he's not going to be a superstar ever, but I think he can be a really god player and a pro-bowler in his prime.

 

[Oswlek]

Donta Hightower will be Donta Hightower..... who said anything about Kuechly or Willis?

This is true, but it also short circuits discussion entirely. Why can't we compare someone many fans feel has elite potential to players we know to be elite?

 

[Brady6]

Donta Hightower will be Donta Hightower..... who said anything about Kuechly or Willis?

I noticed you added me to your signature, problem is I never said he would be DPOY, I said he would be a candidate, so if you’re going to attempt to put me on blast at least get your facts straight, maybe you should stick to PlayStation your probably wicked cool amongst the 12-16 year old crowd, as an adult I consider your posts to be immature and negative. FYI you do not get bonus points for making other people look bad and it certainly doesn’t make you look like a more educated poster.

In a world where bullying and violence is so out of control you’d really expect us as adults to be more respectful to one another, obviously you don’t agree but I will tell you this I spent 10 years overseas fighting and putting my life on the line for this country while you were likely playing Call of Duty sitting in your bean bag so I guess I am not surprised clearly we aren’t looking at the world the same way or holding ourselves to the same accountability level.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

In a world where bullying and violence is so out of control you’d really expect us as adults to be more respectful to one another, obviously you don’t agree but I will tell you this I spent 10 years overseas fighting and putting my life on the line for this country while you were likely playing Call of Duty sitting in your bean bag so I guess I am not surprised clearly we aren’t looking at the world the same way or holding ourselves to the same accountability level.

LOL... I had a reply typed out but deleted it. Why even get into this? It's going completely off topic and opening up a can of worms. The fact that you feel the need to flaunt your personal history and going off topic says more about your maturity than it does about mine.

I didn't put your name in my signature. I put that line there as an example of how bad the homerism is here.

Oh, I should've added "if he continues at this rate"?.... :singing:

Aqib Talib has 3 INT's in 3 games, so if he continues at this rate he will finish with 16 INT's and break the single season INT record.

See how that works?

 

[VrabelJr]

Von Miller and Hightower both play strong side but Von Miller is on the line of scrimmage just about every snap. Von Miller also doesn't exclusively line up on the end of the line or the side where the TE is, he might be in between the DE/DTs. Von Miller is more of a DE than an OLB. You'll almost never see Von Miller take responsibility of covering a TE or a RB. Lawrence Taylor is the best comparison I can come up with.

For Hightower, going from Year 1 to Year 2 I think we all wanted to see his coverage skills get better and so far they look like they have. He hung with Doug Martin decently (he did get beat bad once but luckily Hightower is so big it was hard to get in Martin's radius) and Scott Chandler didn't destroy us like he usually does. Don't expect Hightower to be the sack collecting OLB. That just isn't our system, especially with how much nickel we play.

As for how good Hightower is relative to other 4-3 Strongside OLBs, I think he's still a bit behind a guys like Akeem Ayers (the best 4-3 SS OLB in my opinion) and KJ Wright. All in all Hightower is heading in the right direction though.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

FTR - I'm one of the biggest Jones fans here.

I was one of the very few people here who actually wanted us to draft him. One of the few who praised him before the draft, while most other posters here "didn't get the hype".


http://www.patsfans.com/new-england.../911824-chandler-jones-andre-branch-27-a.html

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/913034-help-me-chandler-jones-love.html

Read through those threads that were made before we drafted Jones and tell me who's wrong now. As you can see, Ive been a fan of Chandler Jones before he was even on the Patriots.



But DPOY? After 3 weeks? That's just comedy.

 

[supafly]

Oh, I should've added "if he continues at this rate"?.... :singing:

Aqib Talib has 3 INT's in 3 games, so if he continues at this rate he will finish with 16 INT's and break the single season INT record.

See how that works?

I agree with you on some level that certain posters can become too fantastical in their analyses, but there is a majority here that pretty much call it like it is and are more than realistic.

As far as getting excited over a player or two's potential, you can't really fault that, can you? Chandler Jones currently has the same number of sacks as JJ Watt, and has really shown a nice tendency at getting some pressure. Will he become DPOY? Probably not, but it's not exactly a fault to point out that he could be considered in the discussion if he continues at the same pace that he has played when healthy.

Just my 2 cents, so don't think that I'm attempting to call either party out.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

but it's not exactly a fault to point out that he could be considered in the discussion if he continues at the same pace that he has played when healthy.

I dont understand why anyone would even attempt to say "if he continues at the same pace". I thought this forum was over that.


I remember a couple years ago when everyone was going on about Wes Welker after the first few weeks saying he would get over 2000 receiving yards if he continued at that pace. By the time the season ended he wasn't even #1 in receiving yards.


If Talib continues at this pace, he will have 16 INT's and break the single season INT record... So I think he'd be more likely for DPOY.

If Peyton Manning continues at this pace, he will smash Brady's single season TD record by over 10 TDs.


I don't see the point in these "if they continue at this pace" discussions. Even if players stay healthy, these things rarely turn out the way people try to make them.

 

[supafly]

I don't see the point in these "if they continue at this pace" discussions. Even if players stay healthy, these things rarely turn out the way people try to make them.

I think it would be hard to argue with you, and I do agree with your thinking. The stats rarely end up being what the first 1/4 or so of the season predict.

I'm just pointing out that it may be nitpicking a bit at what seems to be a pretty innocuous comment, nothing more.

 

[supafly]

If Peyton Manning continues at this pace, he will smash Brady's single season TD record by over 10 TDs.

The way they throw the ball, and with the weapons they have--this one may actually come true.

He may not break it by 10 TD's, but I'm beginning to think that he has a pretty decent chance at surpassing the 50, unless injured of course.

 

[Oswlek]

I dont understand why anyone would even attempt to say "if he continues at the same pace". I thought this forum was over that.

I remember a couple years ago when everyone was going on about Wes Welker after the first few weeks saying he would get over 2000 receiving yards if he continued at that pace. By the time the season ended he wasn't even #1 in receiving yards.

If Talib continues at this pace, he will have 16 INT's and break the single season INT record... So I think he'd be more likely for DPOY.

If Peyton Manning continues at this pace, he will smash Brady's single season TD record by over 10 TDs.

I don't see the point in these "if they continue at this pace" discussions. Even if players stay healthy, these things rarely turn out the way people try to make them.

It's not like Jones got four sacks against Buffalo and everyone is saying, "he's on pace for 64 SACKS! DERRRRRR!!!!"

When the player in question is performance at a pace he has in the past and it leads to a perfectly attainable season, then there is nothing unreasonable about the discussion at all. You appear to be stretching your anti-homer rhetoric a little too far here.

 

[Rob0729]

I dont understand why anyone would even attempt to say "if he continues at the same pace". I thought this forum was over that.


I remember a couple years ago when everyone was going on about Wes Welker after the first few weeks saying he would get over 2000 receiving yards if he continued at that pace. By the time the season ended he wasn't even #1 in receiving yards.


If Talib continues at this pace, he will have 16 INT's and break the single season INT record... So I think he'd be more likely for DPOY.

If Peyton Manning continues at this pace, he will smash Brady's single season TD record by over 10 TDs.


I don't see the point in these "if they continue at this pace" discussions. Even if players stay healthy, these things rarely turn out the way people try to make them.

It works both ways. Jones is on pace for 16 sacks, but he could end up with 18-19 sacks. Yes, being on pace doesn't mean a player will meet that pace, but it also doesn't mean the player won't exceed that pace either.

The reason why I think Jones has a shot to get 16 or more sacks is because a couple of things:

• He didn't have a sack week one because they were playing contain vs. Manuel. He might have more sacks right now if the Pats let him rush the passer more in the first game.
• He sacked the QB four times in the last two games. He may only have three sacks, but one of those sacks are two were half sacks. Add all the QB pressures and hits (a majority in the last two games) and he is getting to or close to the QB at an amazingly high frequency.

The on pace stuff doesn't always pan out by the end of the season, but the eyeball test tells you that it is very possible that Jones will end the season with sacks in the mid to high teens. The guy is virtually unblockable one on one and he is disruptive in the backfield.

 

[Brady6]

LOL... I had a reply typed out but deleted it. Why even get into this? It's going completely off topic and opening up a can of worms. The fact that you feel the need to flaunt your personal history and going off topic says more about your maturity than it does about mine.

I didn't put your name in my signature. I put that line there as an example of how bad the homerism is here.

Oh, I should've added "if he continues at this rate"?.... :singing:

Aqib Talib has 3 INT's in 3 games, so if he continues at this rate he will finish with 16 INT's and break the single season INT record.

See how that works?

Listen I apologize for the playstation dig and for anything else that was insulting towards you as a person, the fact is I do not know you as a person I only know you as poster and I disagree with your post for a couple reasons.

1. I did not open a thread titled "Jones will win DPOY" or anything along those lines, I opened the thread to highlight the second year improvements of Jones, Hightower and Dennard and in an effort to illustrate Chandler's improvements he would be a potential candidate for DPOY if he continues to play at his current level. Fundamentally what I was saying was look at Jones improvements and if sustained what type of class he'd be in as a player at the end of the season, I was not lobbying for Jones to be the DPOY in week 3.
2. If Jones does sustain his current performance over 16 games I see no reason why he wouldn't be considered a candidate for DPOY and that is not being a homer, Jones projects out for 75 tackles and 16 sacks which if achieved would put him in the conversation for the award.
3. Why is it possible for Watt to win DPOY last season as a second year player and Jason Pierre Paul to be a finalist for DPOY in 2011 as second year player but you consider Jones achieving a similar feat is laughable, that makes no sense to me personally because I consider Jones to be a similar talent and for the record he had a better rookie season then Watt or JPP.

I want you to also know I am not a homer, review my posts if you'd like I offer up accolades and criticism, depending on my perception of a situation, and these 3 players along with Belichick for drafting them deserve positive recognition in my opinion.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Listen I apologize for the playstation dig and for anything else that was insulting towards you as a person, the fact is I do not know you as a person I only know you as poster and I disagree with your post for a couple reasons.

1. I did not open a thread titled "Jones will win DPOY" or anything along those lines, I opened the thread to highlight the second year improvements of Jones, Hightower and Dennard and in an effort to illustrate Chandler's improvements he would be a potential candidate for DPOY if he continues to play at his current level. Fundamentally what I was saying was look at Jones improvements and if sustained what type of class he'd be in as a player at the end of the season, I was not lobbying for Jones to be the DPOY in week 3.
2. If Jones does sustain his current performance over 16 games I see no reason why he wouldn't be considered a candidate for DPOY and that is not being a homer, Jones projects out for 75 tackles and 16 sacks which if achieved would put him in the conversation for the award.
3. Why is it possible for Watt to win DPOY last season as a second year player and Jason Pierre Paul to be a finalist for DPOY in 2011 as second year player but you consider Jones achieving a similar feat is laughable, that makes no sense to me personally because I consider Jones to be a similar talent and for the record he had a better rookie season then Watt or JPP.

Jones achieving that feat in his 2nd year isn't laughable. I never said it was. The fact that some people are jumping to that conclusion after only 3 weeks is what I found funny. its way too early to be saying it about anyone.

I want you to also know I am not a homer, review my posts if you'd like I offer up accolades and criticism, depending on my perception of a situation, and these 3 players along with Belichick for drafting them deserve positive recognition in my opinion.

Now that we can agree on. :rocker:

 

[Brady6]

Jones achieving that feat in his 2nd year isn't laughable. I never said it was. The fact that some people are jumping to that conclusion after only 3 weeks is what I found funny. its way too early to be saying it about anyone.

I agree completely; the purpose of my OP was to say he has made significant improvements in his second season and is currently playing at a level that if sustained would make him a candidate for the defensive player of the year award, I sincerely was not suggesting he would win it, my aim was to emphasize how well he has played in the first three games of his second NFL season. Maybe I could have done a better job conveying that in my OP.:idea2:

Now that we can agree on. :rocker:

I am glad we can agree on something, genuinely I actually find you to be an educated football fan who offers valid and accurate assessments in discussions, I do think you’re caught up in the “homer” thing and your desire to shun those alleged “homers” steals from the validity and merit of your posts. Just some food for thought man; either way I hope you and I can come to some mutual and common respect for one another even when we’re met with disagreement.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I agree completely; the purpose of my OP was to say he has made significant improvements in his second season and is currently playing at a level that if sustained would make him a candidate for the defensive player of the year award, I sincerely was not suggesting he would win it, my aim was to emphasize how well he has played in the first three games of his second NFL season. Maybe I could have done a better job conveying that in my OP.:idea2:

Gotcha, and I agree with that 100%.

He certainly didn't look that good tonight though, which is why I don't like getting my hopes up after 3 weeks. Maybe Wilfork missing affected the entire line.

I am glad we can agree on something, genuinely I actually find you to be an educated football fan who offers valid and accurate assessments in discussions, I do think you’re caught up in the “homer” thing and your desire to shun those alleged “homers” steals from the validity and merit of your posts. Just some food for thought man; either way I hope you and I can come to some mutual and common respect for one another even when we’re met with disagreement.

Absolutely. :rocker: