Is our defense this good?

[All3Phases]

That's where you've been talking out both sides of your mouth... anyone who wants to see that can read the contents of the last five pages of this thread and look at the time stamps at the top.

Again, I literally didnt say it once. You can easily provide evidence if you disagree. Just like I easily found your blatant lie

Production meaning what, team production, individual production?

I offered up interceptions and tackles you said it didn't matter. I offered up team passing stats and you said it didn't matter. I said Gilmore was better than Butler, you agreed, then you spent all day arguing how Butler was great because he made one Pro Bowl... entirely ignoring the evidence I provided how Butler was overrated and fell apart on a lesser team.

You did use interceptions, then I showed you how that doesnt make sense, considering there were years where Revis had 0 INTs and Gilmore made the AP team with 2. So telling me Butler wasnt great because he had 4 isnt really helpful for you. THe PYA stat again, I showed you how that logic failed. You completely ignored it. You also conveniently dont like using coverage analytics, so we didnt use them...Which support me

You continue to say pro bowl, even after I corrected you. Youre a lost cause at this point.

Yeah, it's funny how Mills or Butler for that matter plays well and is a better player on better teams and the opposite also holds true... or how Gilmore had one Pro Bowl in his entire Bill's tenure but was an annual fixture at both the Pro Bowl and All Pro teams as a Patriot... oh yeah, and won Defensive Player Of The Year. It's almost... gasp... as if team play effects individual results. Sounds familiar...

He had a good year in 2015 and 2016, so did Logan Ryan, even if Butler got more of the credit... and oh yeah, they ran a system that called for each player to man a side. Butler never left his side to go man cover the best WR on the other team... like say Gilmore did.

Nobody is arguing he was better than Gilmore, but yes most ALL PROS do have great years when they win that award. For all your boasting about Mills playign well, he was never popular enough to make an all pro team...On all those sucky defenses that win super bowls

Showing you measurables is showing how Mills/Mitchell are comparable athletes to Butler and Ryan... my entire point this time spent arguing with you. Go back and read what I wrote.

Things that dont matter to me

 

[All3Phases]

That Malcom Butler and Logan Ryan were "good" not "great" corners... and that Mills and Mitchell are similar athletes.

And if the Patriots are as good in three phases as that 2016 team and the defensive front is as good, then Mills and Mitchell will be fine.

Mills already has a Super Bowl ring... he has nothing to prove. But All3Phases thinks we're doomed because of our two outside CB's. lol

Literally not one person outside of you mentioned Logan Ryan, have you hit your head? I said theyll be fine if one of them plays at an all pro level like MB did in 2016.

 

[Wozzy]

Again, I literally didnt say it once. You can easily provide evidence if you disagree.

Every counterpoint I offered came back to Butler making a single Pro Bowl or 2nd team All Pro team... that's the definition of circular logic.

You did use interceptions, then I showed you how that doesnt make sense, considering there were years where Revis had 0 INTs and Gilmore made the AP team with 2. So telling me Butler wasnt good because he had 4 isnt really helpful for you. THe PYA stat again, I showed you how that logic failed. You completely ignored it.

Nothing made sense except what you were talking about, the very definition of covering your ears, ignoring opposing viewpoints and using circular logic again.

You continue to say pro bowl, even after I corrected you. Youre a lost cause at this point.

Milli Vanilli won a Grammy Award... they weren't great musicians either. At one point The Pet Rock was a popular Christmas gift... what the masses agree is great sometimes is a load of sht... or in this case overrated. This was proven when Butler left to Tennessee in his physical prime and got exposed as a fraud.

Nobody is arguing he was better than Gilmore, but yes most ALL PROS do have great years when they win that award

Players, especially CB's, have a hard time being great or appearing great on crap defenses and teams. These guys are the last line of defense. You don't understand football so this explains the back and forth. It's a team game... in a nutshell.

Things that dont matter to me

Nothing matters to you except the smell of your own farts.

 

[Wozzy]

Literally not one person outside of you mentioned Logan Ryan, have you hit your head? I said theyll be fine if one of them plays at an all pro level like MB did in 2016.

Two "good" CB's will suffice... Butler and Ryan were both good in 2016... it was enough.

Mills and Robinson were enough for Philly in 2017 to win, neither of them has a single Pro Bowl/All Pro to their name... but they won a ring.

Facts suck for you.

 

[moosekill]

So, if we have two good cb's should we be ok, and what if Butler is one of the two?

Just want to make sure I get this all right!

 

[All3Phases]

Every counterpoint I offered came back to Butler making a single Pro Bowl or 2nd team All Pro team... that's the definition of circular logic.

Will you find my posts trying to convince you Butler was better than Gilmore? I can wait. Until then, you lied

Nothing made sense except what you were talking about, the very definition of covering your ears, ignoring opposing viewpoints and using circular logic again.

Milli Vanilli won a Grammy Award... they weren't great musicians either. At one point The Pet Rock was a popular Christmas gift... what the masses agree is great sometimes is a load of sht... or in this case overrated. This was proven when Butler left to Tennessee in his physical prime and got exposed as a fraud.

Players, especially CB's, have a hard time being great or appearing great on crap defenses and teams. These guys are the last line of defense. You don't understand football so this explains the back and forth. It's a team game... in a nutshell.

Nothing matters to you except the smell of your own farts.

None of this is proving how Butler wasnt great in 2016. You provided stats, and I easily threw those in your face.

 

[All3Phases]

Two "good" CB's will suffice... Butler and Ryan were both good in 2016... it was enough.

Mills and Robinson were enough for Philly in 2017 to win, neither of them has a single Pro Bowl/All Pro to their name... but they won a ring.

Facts suck for you.

How did Mills not make an All pro team in Philly? Was he not popular enough or did those teams suck? One of them has to be true, thats your logic.

Butler and Ryan were good enough in 16, probably because one of them was great. Thanks for arriving at the point

 

[Wozzy]

Will you find my posts trying to convince you Butler was better than Gilmore? I can wait. Until then, you lied

Keep changing the subject, it's better than trying to defend an indefensible position.

None of this is proving how Butler wasnt great in 2016. You provided stats, and I easily threw those in your face.

I provided the stats, you warped them to fit some nonsensical narrative. BB meanwhile provided the context when he paid Gilmore and not Butler... Gilly won DPOY... Butler went to Tennessee and got benched for sucking.

 

[Rob0729]

I still think people are judging this defense on perception and nothing more than that. They look how the defense fell apart last year and see the big names leave (some who were not performing well last year) and being replaced with a lot of unknowns and making a judgement.

I know a lot of the offensive woes are because of the new system and players struggling with it. But no one is even considering giving credit to the defense for some of it. The fact that most of the offensive troubles are in the red zone, I think it has more to the defensive play than people give it credit for. The struggles aren't nearly as prominent in the open field.

 

[All3Phases]

Keep changing the subject, it's better than trying to defend an indefensible position.

You literally told me I said this, Ive been asking for proof for a page now. Tuck your tail, liar

I provided the stats, BB provided the context when he paid Gilmore and not Butler... Gilly won DPOY... Butler went to Tennessee and got benched for sucking.

Your time line is off, we are talking about 2016, that must be why youre so lost

 

[Wozzy]

How did Mills not make an All pro team in Philly? Was he not popular enough or did those teams suck? One of them has to be true, thats your logic.

All Pro teams and Pro Bowls are popularity contests... All Pro teams have a smidge more credibility than Pro Bowl teams but not much. It still relies on media members to get it right.

Butler and Ryan were good enough in 16, probably because one of them was great. Thanks for arriving at the point

They could have been twins... one of them got more credit... but fans need a scapegoat to blame or praise.

 

[Wozzy]

I still think people are judging this defense on perception and nothing more than that. They look how the defense fell apart last year and see the big names leave (some who were not performing well last year) and being replaced with a lot of unknowns and making a judgement.

I know a lot of the offensive woes are because of the new system and players struggling with it. But no one is even considering giving credit to the defense for some of it. The fact that most of the offensive troubles are in the red zone, I think it has more to the defensive play than people give it credit for. The struggles aren't nearly as prominent in the open field.

They haven't played a single game... not one in 2022.

And we're screwed with Mills at CB... even though he was the starting CB on the Eagles when they beat us in the 2017 Super Bowl... and neither of their CB's were great then either.

It makes sense somewhere...

 

[All3Phases]

All Pro teams and Pro Bowls are popularity contests... All Pro teams have a smidge more credibility than Pro Bowl teams but not much. It still relies on media members to get it right.

So he wasnt popular, thanks for answering

They could have been twins... one of them got more credit... but fans need a scapegoat to blame or praise.

Except one of them was great in coverage

 

[Wozzy]

So he wasnt popular, thanks for answering

You're welcome... and neither one of their CB's won a popularity contest in their entire career... care to explain how they won a ring?

You said one of them had to be great right?

Except one of them was great in coverage

They were both good in coverage, neither was great.

 

[All3Phases]

They haven't played a single game... not one in 2022.

And we're screwed with Mills at CB... even though he was the starting CB on the Eagles when they beat us in the 2017 Super Bowl... and neither of their CB's were great then either.

It makes sense somewhere...

They were 17th in PYA

 

[Wozzy]

They were 17th in PYA

Stats don't matter... remember?

Also once again you forget to mention how they were 4th in INT's in the entire NFL... funny how your value system fluctuates.

 

[All3Phases]

You're welcome... and neither one of their CB's won a popularity contest in their entire career... care to explain how they won a ring? You said one of them had to be great right?

I said the Patriots SB winning teams had a great CB on mostly every roster. 2004 is debatable. At worst its 5/6. Do you like odds?

They were both good in coverage, neither was great.

According to what?

 

[All3Phases]

Stats don't matter... remember?

I used your stat, funny how this is now good enough. LMAO. You used this exact stat to **** on Butler in 2016, while it also exposed Revis in 14, Gilmore in 18 and now Mills. Which way do you want it? Do you want a team stat to matter for 1 player or no? If so, then None of them were good

 

[Wozzy]

I said the Patriots SB winning teams had a great CB on mostly every roster.

So this magical equation only matters for the Patriots... the Eagles can win with good not great CB's? Makes sense...

According to what?

Look who he was his entire career, with a great defense around him he was very good. With average around him he got benched for Adoree Jackson in Tennessee. He went to the Titans when he was 28... and sucked. Gilmore went to the Patriots when he was 28 and made the All Pro Team and Pro Bowl from that point on.

 

[Wozzy]

I used your stat, funny how this is now good enough. LMAO. You used this exact stat to **** on Butler in 2016, while it also exposed Revis in 14, Gilmore in 18 and now Mills. Which way do you want it? Do you want a team stat to matter for 1 player or no? If so, then None of them were good

Stephon Gilmore
Super Bowl champion (LIII)
NFL Defensive Player of the Year (2019)
2× First-team All-Pro (2018, 2019)
5× Pro Bowl (2016, 2018–2021)
NFL interceptions co-leader (2019)
New England Patriots All-2010s Team
10th overall player taken in the 2012 NFL draft

This is where you reverse course and argue how you never said Butler was as good as Gilmore... circular logic.

Gilmore went to 1 Pro in five years in Buffalo on poor defenses... then did all this ^ in New England... but you don't see the point I'm making... it's not clear enough.