Is Caldwell done?

[solman]

The signing bonus gets accelerated if you cut a player. If it's not before June 1st (the new rule not withstanding), then ALL of the remainingbonus counts in the given year.

You made an editing mistake (you want to get rid of the first "not"), but I understand what you intended to say.

Let me phrase it differently, so you can understand my point:

ALL of the signing bonus counts against the cap, but it is spread over many years.

When you cut a player, you have absolutely no effect on the total cap cost of the signing bonus, but you do move cap cost from latter years into either this year or next year.

Since it is easy for a team in our long term cap position to move cap dollars between years, cutting a player has no material impact on the cap effects of his signing bonus.

Oftentimes, because of that bonus acceleration, the cost of keeping the player is less than the cost of cutting him.

This is NOT true. The CURRENT YEAR cap cost is sometimes lower if you keep him, but the long term cap cost of cutting a player before the season is ALWAYS greater (or occasionally equal if you are cutting a veteran after the season has begun).

Teams in the NFL of 2007 (read: NOT 2005) would pay more than $1.9 million for Caldwell's production, and unless they're giving him upwards of $3-4 million/year, they'd be underpaying/paying enough.

Absolutely. Every team in the NFL would gladly pay $3-4M to a guy who could reliably join their existing team and catch 61 passes.

BUT, there is probably no team in the NFL that believes that Caldwell can join their team and catch 61 passes.

61 passes is what he caught last year when we had that god awful receiving corps.

If there is a team who believes that he is worth $3-4M, then we should trade him to them.

I wouldn't say the Pats are underpaying for Tom Brady.

I have often said that we are underpaying for Tom Brady's skills. Sometimes I say that we are getting him at a discount. I will still say so even when his cap number rises over $13.3M next year.

I think our difference on this transcends definitions and is actually rooted in our assesment of Tom Brady's skill. I think that Brady is head and shoulders above Manning (who still deserves a hall of fame spot), and I think that the key reason why Peyton has better stats is that he has an insanely good receiving corps while Tom has frequently been limited by below average receivers. (The dome helps too.)

At that point, yes. But the Caldwell of March 2006 and the Caldwell of 2007 are two different animals - all Pats Fans can agree on that.

I don't agree. I think that Caldwell's statistical improvement is primarily the result of being involved in more plays with a better QB. If Caldwell went back to San Diego in 2007, I'd expect him to have similar numbers to what he posted in 2005.

 

[Kdo5]

You made an editing mistake (you want to get rid of first "not"), but I understand what you intended to say.

Let me phrase it differently, so you can understand my point:

ALL of the signing bonus counts against the cap, but it is spread over many years.

When you cut a player, you have absolutely no effect on the total cap cost of the signing bonus, but you do move cap cost from latter years into either this year or next year.

Since it is easy for a team in our long term cap position to move cap dollars between years, cutting a player has no material impact on the cap effects of his signing bonus.



This is NOT true. The CURRENT YEAR cap cost is sometimes lower if you keep him, but the long term cap cost of cutting a player before the season is ALWAYS greater (or occasionally equal if you are cutting a veteran after the season has begun).



Absolutely. Every team in the NFL would gladly pay $3-4M to a guy who could reliably join their existing team and catch 61 passes.

BUT, there is probably no team in the NFL that believes that Caldwell can join their team and catch 61 passes.

61 passes is what he caught last year when we had that god awful receiving corps.

If there is a team who believes that he is worth $3-4M, then we should trade him to them.




I have often said that we are underpaying for Tom Brady's skills. Sometimes I say that we are getting him at a discount. I will still say so even when his cap number rises over $13.3M next year.

I think our difference on this transcends definitions and is actually rooted in our assesment of Tom Brady's skill. I think that Brady is head and shoulders above Manning (who still deserves a hall of fame spot), and I think that the key reason why Peyton has better stats is that he has an insanely good receiving corps while Tom has frequently been limited by below average receivers. (The dome helps too.)



I don't agree. I think that Caldwell's statistical improvement is primarily the result of being involved in more plays with a better QB. If Caldwell went back to San Diego in 2007, I'd expect him to have similar numbers to what he posted in 2005.

In San Diego, for one he was injured a lot. 2004, I think that was when he injured his ACL. So 2005 was a year in recovery for him. And finally with people like LT and Gates on your team, your not going to get a chance for many highlights.

 

[salty]

Why won't one of you Caldwell defenders address the issue of Caldwell's lack of toughness?

I have pointed out time and time again that immediately after making a catch, Caldwell falls to the ground or runs out of bounds. I cannot recall one single instance in which Caldwell tried to tough it out for a few more yards.

Or how about this? When does Caldwell go over the middle?

When does Caldwell extend himself for a catch?

You see, its not just those two drops, although they were horrendous enough. If you ask me, those two drops were the result of a much bigger problem which is that RECHE CALDWELL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIED UPON! HE PLAYS SCARED!

Now I suppose you will point out the Kaesviharn hit. He was back on the field immediately after that, but he didn't dare come even close to getting hit the whole rest of the season.

That is the root of my problem with him. If Reche were tough enough, I'd decide "well so what, he really screwed up in the AFC Championship game, but it was just one game." But because I view his "performance" against the Colts to be the result of a much larger issue (his being a p*ssy, to put it bluntly), I can't do that.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is silly.

I could care less what you want to call Caldwell: #1 target, goto guy or "too expensive"

Given the opportunity that he was presented with last season, Caldwell catching 61 passes is not terribly impressive. The vast majority of starting NFL receivers (and many backups) could do the same.

Stallworth and Washington are accepting substantial discounts for just a fraction of the opportunity that Caldwell had last year. (Because they think it will greatly increase their value on the 2008 FA market.)

Ok, slick, let's work this through again, and I'll break it into small bits for you.


1.) Caldwell was not his team's #1 option for most of the season, he was #2

2.) Despite being the #2 option most of the year, he caught 61 passes.

3.) 61 passes meant that he was 20th in the AFC and tied for 21st in the NFC

4.) That means that he was tied for 41st overall in receptions.

5.) In 2005, PRIOR to the cap bump, 43 receivers made more than $1.9 million

6.) Now....... follow the logic.........


By the basic logic, at #41, Caldwell would have been worth more than $1.9 million dollars 2 full years ago.

In other words, he's not being overpaid based upon his production, he's being underpaid, even in 2005 terms. That's from even before guys like Welker got deals averaging out to over $3 million per. I hope this was simplistic enough for you. If not, we'll try crayons next.

 

[Deus Irae]

Why won't one of you Caldwell defenders address the issue of Caldwell's lack of toughness?

I have pointed out time and time again that immediately after making a catch, Caldwell falls to the ground or runs out of bounds. I cannot recall one single instance in which Caldwell tried to tough it out for a few more yards.

Or how about this? When does Caldwell go over the middle?

When does Caldwell extend himself for a catch?

You see, its not just those two drops, although they were horrendous enough. If you ask me, those two drops were the result of a much bigger problem which is that RECHE CALDWELL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIED UPON! HE PLAYS SCARED!

Now I suppose you will point out the Kaesviharn hit. He was back on the field immediately after that, but he didn't dare come even close to getting hit the whole rest of the season.

That is the root of my problem with him. If Reche were tough enough, I'd decide "well so what, he really screwed up in the AFC Championship game, but it was just one game." But because I view his "performance" against the Colts to be the result of a much larger issue (his being a p*ssy, to put it bluntly), I can't do that.

How many drops did he have all season?

Given that the drop when he was wide open was clearly not due to 'fear' in the sense of toughing it out, where does being a ***** enter into it?

 

[Keegs]

the Bottom line is that Caldwell is an Average NFL receiver AT BEST.

in the biggest game of the year he CHOKED.

Some of you insist on bringing up his cost, other crap related to the cap, or the number of catches he had.
He could have had 101 catches and i would still say he CHOKED because he did.

He cannot be trusted in the most important games.
He should not be starting and he won't be.

 

[pats1]

the Bottom line is that Caldwell is an Average NFL receiver AT BEST.

in the biggest game of the year he CHOKED.

Some of you insist on bringing up his cost, other crap related to the cap, or the number of catches he had.
He could have had 101 catches and i would still say he CHOKED because he did.

He cannot be trusted in the most important games.
He should not be starting and he won't be.

Brady was equally at fault on the play where Caldwell "choked."

I'll leave you be now to go and play or do whatever you do...

 

[solman]

4.) That means that he was tied for 41st overall in receptions.

5.) In 2005, PRIOR to the cap bump, 43 receivers made more than $1.9 million

Here is where your logic falls apart:

You think that because Caldwell is 41st overall in receptions, that makes him the 41st best receiver.

By that same logic, Jon Kitna would be the best QB in the NFL because he led the league with 372 completions.

Stats != Skill

 

[Keegs]

Brady was equally at fault on the play where Caldwell "choked."

I'll leave you be now to go and play or do whatever you do...

he was not equally at fault. how can you even determine such a thing?
Brady was a little late noticing Reche uncovered. When he threw him the ball (one that my 75 yr old Grandma could have caught one-handed) he dropped it. So explain exactly how they are "equally at fault".

why are you bending over backwards, clicking "refresh" every 3 seconds so you can respond to a Caldwell basher? The least you can do is think about it more and not respond with these short crappy responses. And im not even trying to pick a fight with you like i would have in the past. But you respond a lot better in other threads. Why are you so defensive of him? It's really bizzare.

 

[pats1]

Why won't one of you Caldwell defenders address the issue of Caldwell's lack of toughness?

I have pointed out time and time again that immediately after making a catch, Caldwell falls to the ground or runs out of bounds. I cannot recall one single instance in which Caldwell tried to tough it out for a few more yards.

Or how about this? When does Caldwell go over the middle?

When does Caldwell extend himself for a catch?

You see, its not just those two drops, although they were horrendous enough. If you ask me, those two drops were the result of a much bigger problem which is that RECHE CALDWELL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIED UPON! HE PLAYS SCARED!

Now I suppose you will point out the Kaesviharn hit. He was back on the field immediately after that, but he didn't dare come even close to getting hit the whole rest of the season.

That is the root of my problem with him. If Reche were tough enough, I'd decide "well so what, he really screwed up in the AFC Championship game, but it was just one game." But because I view his "performance" against the Colts to be the result of a much larger issue (his being a p*ssy, to put it bluntly), I can't do that.

Bill Belichick, Patriots All-Access, WCVB, Week 5 of the 2006 NFL Season:

"That was one of the most vicious hits I've seen in my entire career. I was really concerned about him [Caldwell], but by the time I got out there, he had already started to come to, and boy, on the sideline, he was ready to go back in. What a competitive, courageous player he is. I haven't seen too many hits like that. I haven't seen anybody come back from anything close to that as quickly as he did, and boy, he was ready to go. He really wanted to get back in there, and he did, and caught the ball, and blocked. Boy, he's got some real toughness.

Bill Belichick, press conference, Gillette Stadium, December 1, 2007:

"BB: Reche has worked hard. He's a hard-working kid. There's no doubt about his work ethic. It's very good. He's done a lot of things all year really. He's been, all the way through training camp, a playmaker in camp on the field, whether it be in practice or in games. He's shown up making plays a lot and I think, obviously, the more that a quarterback and a receiver work together, the better it is. It isn't like it took months for it to happen. I can remember seeing it out there in training camp a lot of practices. We had a hard time defensively covering him."

Salty, PatsFans.com Member, March 13, 2007:

"Reche Caldwell is not tough enough to be relied upon. He plays scared."

...

Hmm...who will I trust more?

The one who has watched, planned, reviewed, taught, and learned from every second of every Patriots game in the past 6 years?

Or the one who is making generalized and false statements based on little or no film review?

The 3-time Super Bowl champion Bill Belichick?

Or the agenda-driven, delusional salty?

 

[GoWhalers]

Why won't one of you Caldwell defenders address the issue of Caldwell's lack of toughness?

I have pointed out time and time again that immediately after making a catch, Caldwell falls to the ground or runs out of bounds. I cannot recall one single instance in which Caldwell tried to tough it out for a few more yards.

Or how about this? When does Caldwell go over the middle?

When does Caldwell extend himself for a catch?

You see, its not just those two drops, although they were horrendous enough. If you ask me, those two drops were the result of a much bigger problem which is that RECHE CALDWELL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIED UPON! HE PLAYS SCARED!

Now I suppose you will point out the Kaesviharn hit. He was back on the field immediately after that, but he didn't dare come even close to getting hit the whole rest of the season.

That is the root of my problem with him. If Reche were tough enough, I'd decide "well so what, he really screwed up in the AFC Championship game, but it was just one game." But because I view his "performance" against the Colts to be the result of a much larger issue (his being a p*ssy, to put it bluntly), I can't do that.

Man, this is messed up. I'm not even sure where to begin.

Who exactly is a "tough" receiver? Marvin Harrison? Steve Smith? Javon Walker? Chad Johnson? Hines Ward?

These guys are all great receivers, but you don't see them getting their heads ripped off game in and game out. Hell, Marvin Harrison avoids contact like Mangini avoids the salad bar at the Hometown Buffet! For all the talk about Hines Ward's tenacity as a good blocker, that doesn't mean he's out there getting his bell run 16 games a season.

How's this for toughness?

4-5-SD41 (6:25) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle intended for T.Brown INTERCEPTED by M.McCree at SD 31. M.McCree to SD 34 for 3 yards (T.Brown). FUMBLES (T.Brown), RECOVERED by NE-R.Caldwell at SD 32. Play Challenged by SD and Upheld. (Timeout #1 by SD at 06:16.)

You might remember that little play. Caldwell was tough enough to risk his health and dive on that fumble, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Kdo5]

Bill Belichick, Patriots All-Access, WCVB, Week 5 of the 2006 NFL Season:

"That was one of the most vicious hits I've seen in my entire career. I was really concerned about him [Caldwell], but by the time I got out there, he had already started to come to, and boy, on the sideline, he was ready to go back in. What a competitive, courageous player he is. I haven't seen too many hits like that. I haven't seen anybody come back from anything close to that as quickly as he did, and boy, he was ready to go. He really wanted to get back in there, and he did, and caught the ball, and blocked. Boy, he's got some real toughness.

Salty, PatsFans.com Member, March 13, 2007:

"Reche Caldwell is not tough enough to be relied upon. He plays scared."

...

Hmm...who will I trust more...

Good find. I am sick of the Caldwell isnt tough bull crap as well.

As for you Keegs, Caldwell is a GOOD productive reciever for us. Not an average joe. Say whatever you want but you are wrong about Caldwell. And if you are going to blame Reche than blame a lot of other people. How about half of the defense for being out of gas and not playing like a defense should play fourth quarter football? The defense was one of the best we have seen for a few years, since 2003 but regardless of injuries to Harrison half of them let the team down in its time of need, to seal the game for us. Instead they just couldnt help but let Manning walk all over them towards the end. I'd throw more blame at the defense than Reche.

 

[pats1]

the Bottom line is that Caldwell is an Average NFL receiver AT BEST.

in the biggest game of the year he CHOKED.

Some of you insist on bringing up his cost, other crap related to the cap, or the number of catches he had.
He could have had 101 catches and i would still say he CHOKED because he did.

He cannot be trusted in the most important games.
He should not be starting and he won't be.

167 NFL wide receivers recorded stats in 2006.

The total number of receptions for all of those players was 5359.

Therefore, the league average for receptions by a wide receiver in 2006 was about 32.

(Yes, I know solman's coming argument.)

 

[pats1]

he was not equally at fault. how can you even determine such a thing?
Brady was a little late noticing Reche uncovered. When he threw him the ball (one that my 75 yr old Grandma could have caught one-handed) he dropped it. So explain exactly how they are "equally at fault".

A "little" late?

There's an understatement for the ages.

why are you bending over backwards, clicking "refresh" every 3 seconds so you can respond to a Caldwell basher? The least you can do is think about it more and not respond with these short crappy responses. And im not even trying to pick a fight with you like i would have in the past. But you respond a lot better in other threads. Why are you so defensive of him? It's really bizzare.

Live with it.

 

[Keegs]

A "little" late?

There's an understatement for the ages.



Live with it.

see?
that was a garbage response.

you didn't explain how both Brady and Reche were equally at fault.
and you didn't explain why you are bending over backwards for Caldwell.
Whether he had 50 receptions, 60, 100, or 200 last year he still CHOKED in the biggest game of his career.

You cannot sugarcoat that.

 

[pats1]

Here is where your logic falls apart:

You think that because Caldwell is 41st overall in receptions, that makes him the 41st best receiver.

By that same logic, Jon Kitna would be the best QB in the NFL because he led the league with 372 completions.

Stats != Skill

Would a great deal more "skillful" wide receiver have a great deal more catches with the Patriots than Caldwell would?

 

[pats1]

see?
that was a garbage response.

you didn't explain how both Brady and Reche were equally at fault.
and you didn't explain why you are bending over backwards for Caldwell.

Why do I have to explain it to you? I'm not going to lose sleep over Keegs questioning what I do.

Brady screwed up by waiting until everyone was waving and pointing at him to notice Caldwell uncovered. Caldwell screwed up by not catching a rushed Brady throw.

The Patriots screw up as a team. You hear them say that all the time.

Whether he had 50 receptions, 60, 100, or 200 last year he still CHOKED in the biggest game of his career.

You cannot sugarcoat that.

Reche Caldwell apologizes for not catching 30 more balls and 6 more touchdowns to make Keegs happy. He also notes that even if he did so, Keegs would most likely consider it a choke job since he didn't catch 31.

 

[Keegs]

Would a great deal more "skillful" wide receiver have a great deal more catches with the Patriots than Caldwell would?

ummmmmmmmm caldwell caught all those passes because everyone else sucked royally.

You better hurry up and get your excuses ready for this year when he doesn't do crap.

 

[Rob0729]

Why won't one of you Caldwell defenders address the issue of Caldwell's lack of toughness?

I have pointed out time and time again that immediately after making a catch, Caldwell falls to the ground or runs out of bounds. I cannot recall one single instance in which Caldwell tried to tough it out for a few more yards.

Or how about this? When does Caldwell go over the middle?

When does Caldwell extend himself for a catch?

You see, its not just those two drops, although they were horrendous enough. If you ask me, those two drops were the result of a much bigger problem which is that RECHE CALDWELL IS NOT TOUGH ENOUGH TO BE RELIED UPON! HE PLAYS SCARED!

Now I suppose you will point out the Kaesviharn hit. He was back on the field immediately after that, but he didn't dare come even close to getting hit the whole rest of the season.

That is the root of my problem with him. If Reche were tough enough, I'd decide "well so what, he really screwed up in the AFC Championship game, but it was just one game." But because I view his "performance" against the Colts to be the result of a much larger issue (his being a p*ssy, to put it bluntly), I can't do that.

Ummmm.... I was going to let this die, but since you are putting out there incorrect information I figure I would correct you. For a guy who just falls to the ground after a catch, he has better Yards After the Catch average than Branch has had the last two years. Caldwell had 3.6 YAC average this past season and Branch had 3.5 this year and 3.1 the year before.

Yes, those two drop balls are indicative of his toughness and willingness to put his body on the line. I agree 100%. He was wide open on both plays with no one close to him. So of course that is indicative of him his toughness.

As for going over the middle, the Pats didn't use him that way, but how often did they have Branch going over the middle either. You do realize Branch only had 4 catches over the middle in 2005 and 6 catches over the middle in 2004. The Pats usually use their bigger WRs over the middle and Branch rarely went over the middle past 2003.

Ok, now that I have cleared up some of the incorrect statements in your post. I am done.

 

[pats1]

ummmmmmmmm caldwell caught all those passes because everyone else sucked royally.

You better hurry up and get your excuses ready for this year when he doesn't do crap.

So you're telling me he caught 61 passes even with the defense targeting him as the #1 wide receiver?

So what will happen when the defense doesn't target him, but he's still on the field as a starter?