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Is Caldwell done?

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Caldwell was done before he came to the Pats. He couldnt beat out the washed up Keenan Mcardell for a job in Sandiego. Caldwell was a cheap investment for the Pats for one season because of the Branch situation. Now that the Pats got the one season from him they wanted, he will not play this season. The Pats made these off season investments to not have a guy like Reche out on the field. I dont know what everyone sees in Reche but i think he sucks. He will be lucky to be on the team for insurance reasons only, if one of our recievers gets injured. When we needed someone to step up in the playoffs it was the young Jabar Gaffney not Reche the one some of you Pats fans think is so great.

Is my calendar wrong or is it really March 2006 all over again?
 
Nobody knows that. I think that Caldwell will be given a chance to compete just like the others. But if he gets beat out then he has a chance to get cut, especially with that 2M salary.

I'm not going to sit here and vilify Caldwell, although I am still pretty bitter about his big time drops in the AFCCG. He was solid for us in the regular season. But that's the REGULAR season.

The Pats are stacking the deck big time and spending the bucks because our goal is a RING, not to look good in the regular season. So I can see Caldwell getting a pink ticket IF he doesn't look good in training camp and with his recent playoff history.

What was so bad about his recent playoff history?
 
Gaffney had some deep balls thrown to him last yr, like the Houston game, and had some dropped.. Im torn between the 2 of them, I want both on the team..

And there's nothing wrong with having both on the team.

But at this point, considering the FULL spectrum of performance from both players last season, Caldwell has the clear upper-hand for the starting job.
 
Seems like the front office agrees with me by signing 3 wide outs this off season.

They're signing more WRs because:

A) Caldwell can't do it alone. Caldwell, Gaffney, and Brown won't cut it again. Caldwell's situation is independent from the signings.

B) Caldwell and Gaffney are both free agents after this season.

frankiesfly said:
Caldwell was a one season wonder and when he dont make the team i'll make sure to be the first to write a thread about it.

You go do that. Anything that makes you happy.

frankiesfly said:
I never said Caldwell didnt have a good game against the Chargers. I didnt even bring up anything about dropped balls. I guess you must of confused my post with someone elses, or do you just like putting words in peoples mouths? Playing against your old team does give you that extra motivation to make plays. Its something that is always brought up and talked about, when a player is going up against his former team.

You're doing a great job of making excuses.

frankiesfly said:
I guess to you its some holy ghost. Oh no, thats right it was some almighty force. Reche is going to have beat out both Gaffney and Jackson, and it wont happen.

Any healthy WR at this point can beat out Jackson.

Caldwell was consistently better ever since Gaffney was signed in October. Gaffney didn't even start for a chunk of weeks while Gabriel was around. Who was starting that entire time? Donald Reche Caldwell.
 
This argument is ridiculous. Gaffney didn't even play a game until the end of October. Reche Caldwell had all of training camp and pre-season to get comfortable with the offense. Thus, you CANNOT compare their regular season performances, as Reche had a whole lot more than a leg up on Gaffney in learning the offense.

And in December, a full TWO MONTHS after arriving with the Patriots, Gaffney was still in Caldwell's shadow. Gaffney had only two regular season games with more than 1 catch.

And your argument is ridiculous. On 12/31, when Gaffney had 1 catch (or on 12/17, when he also had 1 catch), Gaffney didn't know the offense according to you.

Yet, magically, 7 days later, on 1/7, Gaffney comes out and has 8 catches. I don't think Gaffney miraculously learned the offense in that 1 week stretch. Gaffney also went from having those 8 catches against the Jets to having 3 against the Colts. What, did he un-learn the offense?

Caldwell was consistent through the second half of the regular season, right into the playoffs. In fact, his numbers got better in the playoffs.

salty said:
Look, Caldwell is serviceable, but thats it. Tom Brady is such a great quarterback that he can make serviceable look good, but that doesn't mean that he (Brady) couldn't use some better weapons. Caldwell is a #4 receiver and nothing more in my eyes.

If Caldwell is serviceable, then Gaffney is nothing more.

Again, what didn't Caldwell do to prove he couldn't be a #2 WR in New England?

Were you under a rock all of 2006? Is it still March 2006?

Brady has his new weapons. COLLECTIVELY, he has better weapons now than he did in 2006.
 
I was talking about the pick at the end of the Colts game this year. The Bailey pick was clearly the result of a very rare mental blunder by Tom Brady. It shocked me that he made such a mistake, whereas next time Reche sh!ts his pants in a key situation, I am going to be very angry that he was even allowed to take the field in those circumstances.

"****s his pants?"

Why are you so low to criticize Reche Caldwell's eyes? Have you been under that rock so long that you haven't noticed Caldwell's eyes are ALWAYS like that?

What physical characteristics do you have that I can make fun of?
 
What was so bad about his recent playoff history?

Oh come on you know what I'm talking about. Caldwell pulled a Bill Buckner , TWICE in the biggest game of the year. If the Pats didn't already have 3 recent rings to satisfy the faithful he would have been run out of town on a pole.

I think Caldwell deserves a second chance but he has to earn his roster spot in training camp just like anybody else. That clear enough for you?
 
Oh come on you know what I'm talking about. Caldwell pulled a Bill Buckner , TWICE in the biggest game of the year. If the Pats didn't already have 3 recent rings to satisfy the faithful he would have been run out of town on a pole.

I think Caldwell deserves a second chance but he has to earn his roster spot in training camp just like anybody else. That clear enough for you?

"A second chance?!?"

What did he do, burn down BB's house? Key Brady's car?

TO THE STAKE!



He dropped a friggin' pass in a game where all sorts of Pats players made all sorts of mistakes. What, let's cut all of them too?

Caldwell averaged 4 catches a game during the regular season. He had 5 against the Jets. 7 against the Chargers. 4 against the Colts.
 
They're signing more WRs because:

A) Caldwell can't do it alone. Caldwell, Gaffney, and Brown won't cut it again. Caldwell's situation is independent from the signings.

B) Caldwell and Gaffney are both free agents after this season.



You go do that. Anything that makes you happy.



You're doing a great job of making excuses.



Any healthy WR at this point can beat out Jackson.

Caldwell was consistently better ever since Gaffney was signed in October. Gaffney didn't even start for a chunk of weeks while Gabriel was around. Who was starting that entire time? Donald Reche Caldwell.

You're right Gabriel was playing. So Gaffney didnt get the same playing time as Caldwell which would explain Reche having better numbers. Im done with this post. I'll take your opinions into consideration, and we'll just wait and see what happens during the remainder of the off season. Jackson will be healthy and will have a bigger role this season to really see how he can produce. I enjoyed this thread but im retiring from it. If I'm wrong about Reche i will own up to it.
 
You're right Gabriel was playing. So Gaffney didnt get the same playing time as Caldwell which would explain Reche having better numbers.

So you're saying Gaffney couldn't beat out Gabriel?

frankiesfly said:
Im done with this post.

Excellent.

frankiesfly said:
I'll take your opinions into consideration, and we'll just wait and see what happens during the remainder of the off season.

Excellent.

frankiesfly said:
Jackson will be healthy

Huh?!?

Did you miss the entire part about him tearing his ACL?

frankiesfly said:
and will have a bigger role this season to really see how he can produce.

That's about as much of a certainty as the Raiders having a winning record this season.

Jackson could very well be out for all of 2007. These recent signings certainly point to that.

frankiesfly said:
I enjoyed this thread but im retiring from it. If I'm wrong about Reche i will own up to it.

Please do.
 
"A second chance?!?"

What did he do, burn down BB's house? Key Brady's car?

TO THE STAKE!



He dropped a friggin' pass in a game where all sorts of Pats players made all sorts of mistakes. What, let's cut all of them too?

Caldwell averaged 4 catches a game during the regular season. He had 5 against the Jets. 7 against the Chargers. 4 against the Colts.

So you won't be satisfied until we anoint Caldwell as the second coming or nominate him for sainthood? I get it. Mediocrity during the regular season and making big mental mistakes in the postseason are now the gold standard. Why don't we sign him to a lifetime contract? I was totally misguided before in wanting Caldwell to prove himself in training camp like the rest of the guys. Clearly he deserves a gold gilded toilet seat and a guaranteed roster spot unlike that overrated guy Brady! Two can play at this game of hyperbole buddy.

Reche Caldwell 2006
61 catches 760 yards 12.5 ypc
NFL Rank 40th overall in total receiving yards
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

But we wouldn't want a pesky thing like the facts from getting in the way of your enshrinement of Caldwell now would we? Thanks for playing, come again.

And just to clarify, notwithstanding my scathing retort to your theatrics I don't hate Caldwell. I think he could become a reasonably decent #2 or #3 option but I don't see him as having the talent or intestinal fortitude to ever be a number 1 option for the Pats and I for one am glad that he won't be counted on to become such in 2007. I stand by my assertion that Caldwell needs to prove himself in training camp and is by no means a lock considering the influx of new talent and competition at the wide receiver spot for 2007.
 
Last edited:
Your claim was that paying a player more than he is worth is bad, and that the best teams underpay their talent the most. Now you're just manipulating the numbers in a poor attempt to justify a mistaken comment.

I have been absolutely consistent on this. You just don't seem to be able to follow.

The cost of a player is the amount of money that you have to pay to keep him on your team.

If a player signs a four year deal with an $8M signing bonus, and annual salaries of $1M, that deal costs $12M over four years or $3M/year.

It is a bad idea to sign it if the player is only worth $2M/year. It is a good idea to sign it if a player is worth $4M/year.

One second after you pay the signing bonus, the $8M is added to your cap for the next four years. Unless you get the player to return the signing bonus, you can never ever get back that $8M of cap space. From that moment onwards, the deal is worth $1M/year.

If the player is struck by lightning and suffers from reduced mobility that lowers his market value to $1.5M/year, you would not cut him because he is worth more than the $1.5M/year you are paying him.

The cost of a player (for purposes of keeping him on the roster or not) is the amount of ADDITIONAL money that you have to pay him to keep him on your roster.

What makes this argument of yours more ridiculous is that you're using it with the one team that most runs counter to your argument. This team assigns a value and then holds to it. It 'overpays' for the bottom end of its roster at the comparative expense of the upper eschelon players. So, for you to talk about jettisoning a fairly low-end/middle class salary is even more foolish in the context of this particular team.

Earlier in this thread I defined in detail the term "underpay" as I use it. I believe you replied to that post. You are now using a completely different definition of underpay.

When I say "underpay", I mean that we pay less for that player's usable talent than that talent is worth on the FA market.

You appear to be using the term "underpay" to mean that we pay less for a particular roster spot than the league average.

Of course the Patriots put a lot of emphasis on depth. You can't make me say otherwise by changing definitions.

Our success is the result of getting a lot of talent for very little money. (underpaying)

Last year, when we got Caldwell and Gafney for a TOTAL of $1.32M, Caldwell was on the happy side of the value/benefit equation.

This year Caldwell costs twice as much as last year, and probably has the same amount of talent.

Sometimes when you double the price on a good deal, it becomes a bad deal. I believe that Caldwell is an example of this.
 
So you won't be satisfied until we anoint Caldwell as the second coming or nominate him for sainthood? I get it.

No. But I won't be satisfied until these myths about his playoff play and his 2006 season are buried and forgotten.

VJCPatriot said:
Mediocrity during the regular season

Mediocrity? What did you want instead? 100 catches?

VJCPatriot said:
and making big mental mistakes in the postseason

ONE. The other was shared by Brady.

And they sure as hell don't outweigh his accomplishments. If you believe that, you are helpless.

VJCPatriot said:
are now the gold standard. Why don't we sign him to a lifetime contract? I was totally misguided before in wanting Caldwell to prove himself in training camp like the rest of the guys.

Every player will have to prove himself. But Caldwell isn't exactly fighting for a roster spot at this point in his Patriot career.

VJCPatriot said:
Clearly he deserves a gold gilded toilet seat and a guaranteed roster spot unlike that overrated guy Brady! Two can play at this game of hyperbole buddy.

And I'm the one retorting with theatrics?

VJCPatriot said:
Reche Caldwell 2006
61 catches 760 yards 12.5 ypc
NFL Rank 40th overall in total receiving yards
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

Decent stats there. How many expected Caldwell to come in and do that?

VJCPatriot said:
But we wouldn't want a pesky thing like the facts from getting in the way of your enshrinement of Caldwell now would we? Thanks for playing, come again.

Are you speaking of yourself?

VJCPatriot said:
And just to clarify, notwithstanding my scathing retort to your theatrics I don't hate Caldwell. I think he could become a reasonably decent #2 or #3 option but I don't see him as having the talent or intestinal fortitude to ever be a number 1 option for the Pats and I for one am glad that he won't be counted on to become such in 2007.

And I agree. The Patriots have RARELY had a #1 option. They've had a bunch of decent-to-great #2/3 guys, though.

2007 is no different. Caldwell, Stallworth, and Welker all fit that mold. Gaffney has to show more consistency. Washington is starting from the bottom.

VJCPatriot said:
I stand by my assertion that Caldwell needs to prove himself in training camp and is by no means a lock considering the influx of new talent and competition at the wide receiver spot for 2007.

And that influx of talent brings the Patriots up to where they need to be in the regular season, not over it. Caldwell, Stallworth, Welker, Gaffney, and Washington can all co-exist on the roster.
 
I have been absolutely consistent on this. You just don't seem to be able to follow.

The cost of a player is the amount of money that you have to pay to keep him on your team.

If a player signs a four year deal with an $8M signing bonus, and annual salaries of $1M, that deal costs $12M over four years or $3M/year.

It is a bad idea to sign it if the player is only worth $2M/year. It is a good idea to sign it if a player is worth $4M/year.

One second after you pay the signing bonus, the $8M is added to your cap for the next four years. Unless you get the player to return the signing bonus, you can never ever get back that $8M of cap space. From that moment onwards, the deal is worth $1M/year.

The signing bonus gets accelerated if you cut a player. If it's not before June 1st (the new rule not withstanding), then ALL of the remainingbonus counts in the given year.

solman said:
If the player is struck by lightning and suffers from reduced mobility that lowers his market value to $1.5M/year, you would not cut him because he is worth more than the $1.5M/year you are paying him.

The cost of a player (for purposes of keeping him on the roster or not) is the amount of ADDITIONAL money that you have to pay him to keep him on your roster.

Oftentimes, because of that bonus acceleration, the cost of keeping the player is less than the cost of cutting him.

solman said:
Earlier in this thread I defined in detail the term "underpay" as I use it. I believe you replied to that post. You are now using a completely different definition of underpay.

When I say "underpay", I mean that we pay less for that player's usable talent than that talent is worth on the FA market.

Teams in the NFL of 2007 (read: NOT 2005) would pay more than $1.9 million for Caldwell's production, and unless they're giving him upwards of $3-4 million/year, they'd be underpaying/paying enough.

solman said:
You appear to be using the term "underpay" to mean that we pay less for a particular roster spot than the league average.

Of course the Patriots put a lot of emphasis on depth. You can't make me say otherwise by changing definitions.

Our success is the result of getting a lot of talent for very little money. (underpaying)

I wouldn't say the Pats are underpaying for Tom Brady.

solman said:
Last year, when we got Caldwell and Gafney for a TOTAL of $1.32M, Caldwell was on the happy side of the value/benefit equation.

At that point, yes. But the Caldwell of March 2006 and the Caldwell of 2007 are two different animals - all Pats Fans can agree on that.

solman said:
This year Caldwell costs twice as much as last year, and probably has the same amount of talent.

Because he has since proven he can turn that talent into production. Not every player is able to do that.

They paid $906,000 for Caldwell in March 2006 because Caldwell had proven he could offer 28 catches worth of production.

They will pay $1,871,000 for Caldwell in 2007 because Caldwell has proven he can offer 61 catches worth of production.

solman said:
Sometimes when you double the price on a good deal, it becomes a bad deal. I believe that Caldwell is an example of this.
 
What was "asinine" was you making a claim that your own definition disproves. My point about Watson was simply proof of this. Furthermore, saying you "generally do so on a per season basis" is nothing but a cop out. If Jerry Rice only played 13 games and someone else caught more balls as a result, Rice would still have been the number #1 receiver for Montana/Young. Watson was Brady's #1 target last season when everyone was on the field and healthy, not Caldwell. Your argument blaming Caldwell for not catching more balls when he wasn't the #1 option until Watson went down is completely unfair and is built upon some of the most contrived arguments I've ever seen on a football forum.

This is silly.

I could care less what you want to call Caldwell: #1 target, goto guy or "too expensive"

Given the opportunity that he was presented with last season, Caldwell catching 61 passes is not terribly impressive. The vast majority of starting NFL receivers (and many backups) could do the same.

Stallworth and Washington are accepting substantial discounts for just a fraction of the opportunity that Caldwell had last year. (Because they think it will greatly increase their value on the 2008 FA market.)
 
So you won't be satisfied until we anoint Caldwell as the second coming or nominate him for sainthood? I get it. Mediocrity during the regular season and making big mental mistakes in the postseason are now the gold standard. Why don't we sign him to a lifetime contract? I was totally misguided before in wanting Caldwell to prove himself in training camp like the rest of the guys. Clearly he deserves a gold gilded toilet seat and a guaranteed roster spot unlike that overrated guy Brady! Two can play at this game of hyperbole buddy.

Reche Caldwell 2006
61 catches 760 yards 12.5 ypc
NFL Rank 40th overall in total receiving yards
http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

But we wouldn't want a pesky thing like the facts from getting in the way of your enshrinement of Caldwell now would we? Thanks for playing, come again.

And just to clarify, notwithstanding my scathing retort to your theatrics I don't hate Caldwell. I think he could become a reasonably decent #2 or #3 option but I don't see him as having the talent or intestinal fortitude to ever be a number 1 option for the Pats and I for one am glad that he won't be counted on to become such in 2007. I stand by my assertion that Caldwell needs to prove himself in training camp and is by no means a lock considering the influx of new talent and competition at the wide receiver spot for 2007.
Mediocrity? A saint? What the hell?!

Nobody has said he is a saint or a world beater or a star. But he was easily one of the more productive players on our offense. Stop twisting peoples words around. Nobody said he is amazing, people are defending him against stupid ass arguments that he should be cut because of a DROP. The first AFCCG drop meant nothing, Gaffney scored a TD on the same drive. The second did but this criticism of him making a drop shouldnt be going on all the way into March. Dont act like there is anybody on the 2006 Pats who hasnt dropped a pass. I assume you watched the Pats/Titans AFC Divisional Championship game in 2004? Daniel Graham was wide open, no down field, right next to the endzone wide open a ball floats right to him and he drops it. It was as bad as any of Caldwell's two but nobody cares to remember it. Forgive and forget since he is still a good player.

Those stats are not at all bad, they are just like Givens's from previous years who was a good #2 reciever and that is what Caldwell will be.

I highly doubt they are going to cut Reche. Brady and Belichick speak highly of him whenever asked about him and I am sure they arent going to hold the drop against him in the future. I guarentee any of the Caldwell haters, 100% that Caldwell is on the roster next year and that he is likely going to be the #2 reciever I see no reason as to why he would go from having a terrific training camp last year to a dread full one this year. Its unbelievable to think that people were giving him a hard time during preseason then he is doing great in the second half of the season and heading into the AFCCG and people are praising him as a great pickup, and two drops later they want him cut.

Un frigging believable.
 
This is silly.

I could care less what you want to call Caldwell: #1 target, goto guy or "too expensive"

Given the opportunity that he was presented with last season, Caldwell catching 61 passes is not terribly impressive.

Seek professional help. Immediately.
 
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