Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[40yrpatsfan]

I'll believe it when I see it with Thornton. They keep sending him on short crossers into linebackers and he'll be on IR more than the field, and he hasn't exactly shown good hands.
And yes, the Jones picks were both marvelous, but hitting in the mid-rounds doesn't excuse letting obvious elite talent (the two LBs) slip through your fingers in the first, particularly in an area of need. The Pats consistently do really well in the mid-to-late rounds.
The front end of the draft is where they fail repeatedly.

It's not that they don't hit on high round picks, it's that they traded down from #21 to 29 (passing on a LB as you mentioned), but in exchange they got Cole Strange, Jack Jones, Bailey Zappe, and a high 3rd round 2023 pick. For a team with multiple needs, that looks clearly better than one of those LB's, netting starters at OG and CB, a quality backup QB, and the 75th pick in this coming draft. So I would strongly disagree that they missed with that 21st pick, and in fact it shows that BB still has his fastball on draft day trades.

 

[captain stone]

It's not that they don't hit on high round picks, it's that they traded down from #21 to 29 (passing on a LB as you mentioned), but in exchange they got Cole Strange, Jack Jones, Bailey Zappe, and a high 3rd round 2023 pick. For a team with multiple needs, that looks clearly better than one of those LB's, netting starters at OG and CB, a quality backup QB, and the 75th pick in this coming draft. So I would strongly disagree that they missed with that 21st pick, and in fact it shows that BB still has his fastball on draft day trades.

There's no problem with the trade-down(s).

There is a problem, however - a BIG one (as usual) - with those whom he & Al Groh's kid chose with those picks.

 

[crawhammer]

I'll play with 4 just for fun rather than argue a point. Foles, Flacco, Eli Manning, Denver Peyton Manning Husk. Won't bother adding Dilfer.

Dilfer is 1 of the 5 of the last 30 Super Bowl winning quarterbacks who don't fit the criteria of elite quarterback or elite quarterback play.

I also included Denver Peyton among the 5 even though he's an all-time elite quarterback. But for the purposes of this debate it would be disingenuous to consider Peyton's elite status because he was just so incredibly diminished that final season. An all-time elite quarterback has never been carried to a Super Bowl championship like Peyton was that season.

Both Dilfer and Denver Peyton played with all-time elite defenses so those teams were able to uniquely overcome the inferior play of their quarterback.

Foles is mostly a career stiff but he met the criteria of elite quarterback play in that 2017 postseason...

3-0
72.6 Cmp%
9.2 Y/A
324 Y/G
6 TDs
1 INT
115.7 passer rating

Flacco apparently continues to got overlooked for having one of the greatest postseasons ever for a quarterback in 2012...

4-0
57.9 Cmp%
9.0 Y/A
285 Y/G
11 TDs
0 INT
117.2 passer rating

Finally, Eli. Firstly, he's probably getting into the HOF and it's primary because of his postseason play. He beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl, which is phenomenal enough considering Brady is 7-1 against everyone else (with 500 yards in the 1 loss). Eli was lights out in those two Super Bowl runs: 8-0 (5-0 on the road) with 15 TDs and only 2 INTs. And of those 8 wins, Eli had 4 fourth quarterbacks and 5 game-winning drives. Most of his career Eli was mediocre but he was tough as nails and he was undeniably great in his Super Bowl runs.

 

[Real fan 02]

I could see Belichick finding a different role for Patricia, but they should fire Judge.

BB won't fire Judge as long as he has his two sons on the staff.. BB likely is worried about the the optics of that and the criticism.. however BB shouldn't be the one to do it ownership should.. judge was actually a good special teams coach that's where he should be.. he just doesn't have the pedigree, the attitude and the character it takes to be anything more than that on the football field..

 

[Tunescribe]

Everyone was to blame for the offense's short-comings... EVERYONE.

I don't see how you can use such a broad brush stroke when fault rested foremost with the orchestrators, Patricia/Judge. Everything stemmed from their lack of ability to install a coherent scheme or game-plan contingencies for what defenses might present. What are the players supposed to do, quit? Stage a mutiny? Executing what they were told/put in place to do was so inherently flawed, making ANYTHING work consistently was an uphill struggle. As player-leader Mac certainly did not handle himself well at times, but being a perfect Boy Scout wouldn't have helped him translate Patricia's disjointed mess into touchdowns.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Mentioned this during the season but saying "this is unlike Bill" is the understatement of the century.

Bill is known for being self aware, not beating around the bush so to speak. Having Judge and Patricia spread so thin and living with poor results is just something we haven't seen much of if at all. I remember so many clips of him telling players exactly what made them good and things they weren't so good at. All those meetings with coaches saying things like "fellas we gotta be better or we'll get our ass kicked."

I can only imagine what those meetings were like this year lol. Unbelievable stuff from the king of the jungle.

 

[Tunescribe]

Mentioned this during the season but saying "this is unlike Bill" is the understatement of the century.

Bill is known for being self aware, not beating around the bush so to speak. Having Judge and Patricia spread so thin and living with poor results is just something we haven't seen much of if at all. I remember so many clips of him telling players exactly what made them good and things they weren't so good at. All those meetings with coaches saying things like "fellas we gotta be better or we'll get our ass kicked."

I can only imagine what those meetings were like this year lol. Unbelievable stuff from the king of the jungle.

I keep coming back to the notion that something possibly happened behind the scenes to put him between a rock and a hard place. No idea what other than Patricia/Judge being a late fallback option. On the surface it makes no sense.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I keep coming back to the notion that something possibly happened behind the scenes to put him between a rock and a hard place. No idea what other than Patricia/Judge being a late fallback option. On the surface it makes no sense.

The rock was the fact that JMD took the job and a number of assistants at this time last January after the available options are more limited, the hard place is that BOB was not available. Giving Caley more responsibility was the best option for a transition year while developing organizational depth. Caley refused to take the role without the title which led to MP and JJ as a desperate contingency plan.

 

[DaBruinz]

BB won't fire Judge as long as he has his two sons on the staff.. BB likely is worried about the the optics of that and the criticism.. however BB shouldn't be the one to do it ownership should.. judge was actually a good special teams coach that's where he should be.. he just doesn't have the pedigree, the attitude and the character it takes to be anything more than that on the football field..

Talk about grasping for straws.

What does Joe Judge NOT doing his job have to do with Steven's or Brian's positions on the team? Seriously. What "optics and criticism" would BB face for firing a coaching that didn't do his job?

 

[Mike the Brit]

The rock was the fact that JMD took the job and a number of assistants at this time last January after the available options are more limited, the hard place is that BOB was not available. Giving Caley more responsibility was the best option for a transition year while developing organizational depth. Caley refused to take the role without the title which led to MP and JJ as a desperate contingency plan.

I disagree with this.

The rock was the fact that JMD took the job and a number of assistants at this time last January

The Patriots didn't have to let McDaniels take so many assistants

the hard place is that BOB was not available.

We have no evidence whatsoever that that was the preferred option

Giving Caley more responsibility was the best option for a transition year while developing organizational depth. Caley refused to take the role without the title which led to MP and JJ as a desperate contingency plan.

Again, this is pure speculation. Still, if MP and JJ were a "desperate contingency plan" then they wouldn't have tried to re-tool the offense so drastically -- letting Jakob Johnson go and telling him they weren't going to use a fullback, and so on. If you're trying to keep things going while waiting for someone else, you don't overturn what you've been doing. And anyway why end up with Patricia covering both O-line and (effectively) OC? Why not recruit a competent o-line coach?

I keep coming back to the notion that something possibly happened behind the scenes to put him between a rock and a hard place. No idea what other than Patricia/Judge being a late fallback option. On the surface it makes no sense.

I have two guesses.

The first is that BB thought that he would coach the offense himself with MP and JJ as assistants. After all, there have been a million stories (often from former players) about how knowledgeable Belichick is and that he "could coach any position". Did he try? It doesn't look as if he did and that it was in fact left to Judge and Patricia.

The second is that Matt Patricia is one of those people who are good at whispering in the boss's ear. The Patriots' structure is absolutely top-down, so "if it doesn't work, blame me" is exactly right. But Ernie Adams had a special status. He wasn't, for whatever reason, anxious to take a prominent role, to work his way up to being a head coach or something, but he didn't have a superior-subordinate relationship with Belichick. My guess is that he would have been someone who could tell Belichick if something needed changing -- if Belichick had made a bad decision -- and be listened to. Patricia doesn't and couldn't have that status, but he had the Adams "special adviser" role. Perhaps he was using that to say to BB: "let me do this".

I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has sweet-talked his way into unwarranted influence. Think Jack Easterby.

In any case, of course, the question is why BB didn't pull the plug earlier. Surely it was apparent that things were not going well by the end of training camp at least. The disaffection of the players was obvious.

It all reflects really badly on BB. I hope he's not too old or too much of a believer in his own legend to learn the lessons. Sometimes the very smartest people are most stubbornly and persistently wrong.

 

[Tunescribe]

The rock was the fact that JMD took the job and a number of assistants at this time last January after the available options are more limited, the hard place is that BOB was not available. Giving Caley more responsibility was the best option for a transition year while developing organizational depth. Caley refused to take the role without the title which led to MP and JJ as a desperate contingency plan.

That is an interesting scenario. Although, if BB really thought Caley was capable I'd like to know why he would refuse it regardless. Even without immediately getting the title it still would've been a huge career opportunity.

 

[Tunescribe]

I disagree with this.



The Patriots didn't have to let McDaniels take so many assistants



We have no evidence whatsoever that that was the preferred option


Again, this is pure speculation. Still, if MP and JJ were a "desperate contingency plan" then they wouldn't have tried to re-tool the offense so drastically -- letting Jakob Johnson go and telling him they weren't going to use a fullback, and so on. If you're trying to keep things going while waiting for someone else, you don't overturn what you've been doing. And anyway why end up with Patricia covering both O-line and (effectively) OC? Why not recruit a competent o-line coach?



I have two guesses.

The first is that BB thought that he would coach the offense himself with MP and JJ as assistants. After all, there have been a million stories (often from former players) about how knowledgeable Belichick is and that he "could coach any position". Did he try? It doesn't look as if he did and that it was in fact left to Judge and Patricia.

The second is that Matt Patricia is one of those people who are good at whispering in the boss's ear. The Patriots' structure is absolutely top-down, so "if it doesn't work, blame me" is exactly right. But Ernie Adams had a special status. He wasn't, for whatever reason, anxious to take a prominent role, to work his way up to being a head coach or something, but he didn't have a superior-subordinate relationship with Belichick. My guess is that he would have been someone who could tell Belichick if something needed changing -- if Belichick had made a bad decision -- and be listened to. Patricia doesn't and couldn't have that status, but he had the Adams "special adviser" role. Perhaps he was using that to say to BB: "let me do this".

I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has sweet-talked his way into unwarranted influence. Think Jack Easterby.

In any case, of course, the question is why BB didn't pull the plug earlier. Surely it was apparent that things were not going well by the end of training camp at least. The disaffection of the players was obvious.

It all reflects really badly on BB. I hope he's not too old or too much of a believer in his own legend to learn the lessons. Sometimes the very smartest people are most stubbornly and persistently wrong.

BB addressed the question of an offensive overhaul as just too complex an undertaking once the regular season begins. Which makes sense, since time is then devoted to game-planning for opponents based on the system installed during training camp. They just had to ride with it and hope for the best.

 

[Nehalem]

BB won't fire Judge as long as he has his two sons on the staff.. BB likely is worried about the the optics of that and the criticism.. however BB shouldn't be the one to do it ownership should.. judge was actually a good special teams coach that's where he should be.. he just doesn't have the pedigree, the attitude and the character it takes to be anything more than that on the football field..

Wait a minute. Who exactly would be criticizing BB for firing Judge at this point?

 

[venecol]

Wait a minute. Who exactly would be criticizing BB for firing Judge at this point?

Absolutely nobody.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

According to this article it's routine for him:

Step inside Bill Belichick’s office: Stories of Patriots coach’s open door | FOX Sports

In contrast to his public image, Bill Belichick is always open and accessible to his players and coaches. Here's a look inside those meetings.

www.foxsports.com

BB won't fire Judge as long as he has his two sons on the staff.. BB likely is worried about the the optics of that and the criticism.. however BB shouldn't be the one to do it ownership should.. judge was actually a good special teams coach that's where he should be.. he just doesn't have the pedigree, the attitude and the character it takes to be anything more than that on the football Whatfield..

Talk about grasping for straws.

What does Joe Judge NOT doing his job have to do with Steven's or Brian's positions on the team? Seriously. What "optics and criticism" would BB face for firing a coaching that didn't do his job?

I thought that was an odd statement too, what does one have to do with the other?

 

[DaBruinz]

Mentioned this during the season but saying "this is unlike Bill" is the understatement of the century.

Bill is known for being self aware, not beating around the bush so to speak. Having Judge and Patricia spread so thin and living with poor results is just something we haven't seen much of if at all. I remember so many clips of him telling players exactly what made them good and things they weren't so good at. All those meetings with coaches saying things like "fellas we gotta be better or we'll get our ass kicked."

I can only imagine what those meetings were like this year lol. Unbelievable stuff from the king of the jungle.

The last time I remember the Pats being caught in something like this happened was in 2005. When Bruschi had his stroke . The Pats had signed Monty Beisel and Chad Brown to replace Bruschi. The thought was that Brown would start next to Ted Johnson with Beisel learning the position behind them.. Then, Ted Johnson announced his retirement in training camp, forcing the Pats to rely on Beisel as a starter, which was a failure. That's when they were forced to move Vrabel inside.

 

[Mike the Brit]

BB addressed the question of an offensive overhaul as just too complex an undertaking once the regular season begins. Which makes sense, since time is then devoted to game-planning for opponents based on the system installed during training camp. They just had to ride with it and hope for the best.

I don't buy that.

As that video you shared also points out, the offense improved no end at the end of the season because of the changes they made. It was actually good from about the Raiders game (lost to a combination of a bogus touchdown and a suicide play), the Bengals (almost held their own against an excellent team and might have won but for a fumble), Dolphins (a lucky win), Bills (were holding their own but couldn't make up the deficit of two KR touchdowns and then had to try to play "hero-ball").

It was notable, first, that they let Bourne back in (and he repaid them handsomely) and that the play calling became less predictable (run up the middle on first down; pass from the shotgun/run from under center; run, run, pass in the red zone ...) It was almost as if the pre-season had ended. I have no idea why they couldn't get there earlier.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

That is an interesting scenario. Although, if BB really thought Caley was capable I'd like to know why he would refuse it regardless. Even without immediately getting the title it still would've been a huge career opportunity.

Good question, hard to answer without knowing what offense he was going to be asked to run. Even if he did a good job a new offense would likely not go very well year 1 which would hurt his chances of finding a new OC job when BOB joined the team.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I have two guesses.

The first is that BB thought that he would coach the offense himself with MP and JJ as assistants. After all, there have been a million stories (often from former players) about how knowledgeable Belichick is and that he "could coach any position". Did he try? It doesn't look as if he did and that it was in fact left to Judge and Patricia.

The second is that Matt Patricia is one of those people who are good at whispering in the boss's ear. The Patriots' structure is absolutely top-down, so "if it doesn't work, blame me" is exactly right. But Ernie Adams had a special status. He wasn't, for whatever reason, anxious to take a prominent role, to work his way up to being a head coach or something, but he didn't have a superior-subordinate relationship with Belichick. My guess is that he would have been someone who could tell Belichick if something needed changing -- if Belichick had made a bad decision -- and be listened to. Patricia doesn't and couldn't have that status, but he had the Adams "special adviser" role. Perhaps he was using that to say to BB: "let me do this".

I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't be the first time that someone has sweet-talked his way into unwarranted influence. Think Jack Easterby.

In any case, of course, the question is why BB didn't pull the plug earlier. Surely it was apparent that things were not going well by the end of training camp at least. The disaffection of the players was obvious.

It all reflects really badly on BB. I hope he's not too old or too much of a believer in his own legend to learn the lessons. Sometimes the very smartest people are most stubbornly and persistently wrong.

There were reports where that Caley refused the job without the title and BB said he was concerned that Caley would be a one and done situation. The possibility that MP proposed himself made it easier for BB to fool himself into thinking that he didn't need an OC for a year. I agree that the lack of reaction when things did not go well is a reflection on BB and probably the most damning part of the process.

 

[Tunescribe]

I don't buy that.

As that video you shared also points out, the offense improved no end at the end of the season because of the changes they made. It was actually good from about the Raiders game (lost to a combination of a bogus touchdown and a suicide play), the Bengals (almost held their own against an excellent team and might have won but for a fumble), Dolphins (a lucky win), Bills (were holding their own but couldn't make up the deficit of two KR touchdowns and then had to try to play "hero-ball").

It was notable, first, that they let Bourne back in (and he repaid them handsomely) and that the play calling became less predictable (run up the middle on first down; pass from the shotgun/run from under center; run, run, pass in the red zone ...) It was almost as if the pre-season had ended. I have no idea why they couldn't get there earlier.

According to Greg Bedard, one change near the end of the season was finally giving Mac more LOS leeway with calling audibles and protections. That was one of his strengths last year but taken away by Patricia/Judge in training camp because it was deemed too complicated for the system they installed. Yes, Bourne getting more time helped. Even then, the Patriots mustered only 10 offensive touchdowns over their last six games.