Impact WR….whom do you want?

[Ivan]

Stand pat on receivers, upgrade the OL.

I understand the need for an OT, but do you really think they can be a serious playoff team with this receiving corps? Or are you ok with a slow build and another year watching the playoffs from the golf course?

 

[Tunescribe]

I understand the need for an OT, but do you really think they can be a serious playoff team with this receiving corps? Or are you ok with a slow build and another year watching the playoffs from the golf course?

I suppose you could watch playoffs from the golf course on your cell phone. That's an odd bit of multitasking, though.

 

[n6249c]

I understand the need for an OT, but do you really think they can be a serious playoff team with this receiving corps? Or are you ok with a slow build and another year watching the playoffs from the golf course?

I think they have a better chance of being a playoff team with the present receiving corps and an upgraded OL than with this OL and an upgraded receiving corps.

obviously upgrading both would be best, but the statemen5 above guides my priorities.

also think the present receivers can improve and mostly be better in the future than they’ve been so far in their careers, so I’m not going to place some arbitrary ceiling on what to expect from them. That’s something that really chaps my cheeks when folks do it. If that were used to determine who gets their chance we’d never have seen Edelman on the field or even the roster.

 

[Ivan]

There's no need for snark or defensiveness here, we're just having a discussion. It wasn't "whining" to point out you added tight ends to the equation when wide receivers was the initial topic. But that's fine.

After revisiting your initial response I think I have a clearer idea of what you're driving at. Just the same, I'm not convinced the Pats' receiving corps, including tight ends, isn't already playoff-worthy without another marquee name added. Mac was the league's 13th-ranked QB his rookie season (according to Pro Football Reference) and I consider last year an aberration. I anticipate significant improvement from him this coming season -- AT LEAST top-13 and hopefully beyond, in which case he's flirting with top-10 status. Of course, a lot hinges on him making that leap.

Let's say Thornton develops further as a downfield threat. With Schuster, Bourne and Parker in the mix plus Henry/Gesicki, do you still see glaring needs? If so, in your opinion who/what should they aim for?

I’m in basic agreement with this. Overall they have a decent team, but their defense will be much better if they spend less time on the field, and more time ahead or tied. And while I can’t ever remember wanting an undersized WR with their first pick, I think this year is the exception, and that’s because I feel speed is a serious need for them. And while I’m not locked in on him, and I would be OK with other choices, depending upon how the board falls on draft night, I do think Zay Flowers would add a full time presence on offense similar to the one Marcus Jones gave them occasionally last season. The added threat of speed off the line, to go with Thornton deep, and either Parker or Hopkins outside would finally force opposing defenses to have to cover the entire field, which has been seriously lacking for years. This would give them the same kind of threats Mahomes has had with K.C., and Burrows has with Cindy, Tua has in Miami, and Hurdt has in Philly. At which point it will come down to O’Brien’s schemes, and Jones ability to get the most out of it for them to have the kind of offense that the best teams in the league have. More than anything else the thing that the Pats have been lacking is explosiveness offensively, and the best teams in football have that quality.

All that said it could be that Groh and Wolf have identified prospects in the draft that would give them this quality without spending a 1st on a receiver, but that’s impossible to know right now. If they have then I’m fine with taking the best prospect at #14 and filling that need later, but If they don’t address their offense to give them the ability to win higher scoring games they won’t achieve much of anything again this season. I’m open to numerous prospects at #14, especially since this 2st round draft board has been developing in ways that could actually help the Patriots for a change, as most years what we see is the players we want move from available early in the process, to long gone by draft day. There is still a long way to go in the off-season, hopefully their front office will make the moves to make a top 8 team offensively. And if they make the right moves, but Jones can’t deliver then we will know that he’s not up to it, and they can move on from him.

 

[Ivan]

I suppose you could watch playoffs from the golf course on your cell phone. That's an odd bit of multitasking, though.

That’s not possible in Maine.

 

[Ollie]

I'm going cold on Hopkins, i watched last years receptions and it was just 10-15yrds and then instantly being tackled. Giving up draft capital and a big salary for a 31yr old WR that is on the slide makes me nervous. Would he be the WR1 that people are talking of?

 

[Ivan]

I think they have a better chance of being a playoff team with the present receiving corps and an upgraded OL than with this OL and an upgraded receiving corps.

obviously upgrading both would be best, but the statemen5 above guides my priorities.

also think the present receivers can improve and mostly be better in the future than they’ve been so far in their careers, so I’m not going to place some arbitrary ceiling on what to expect from them. That’s something that really chaps my cheeks when folks do it. If that were used to determine who gets their chance we’d never have seen Edelman on the field or even the roster.

Then we disagree. I think they need more production from their receiving corps to truly compete against the best teams, and simply swapping Meyers for Smith-Schuster doesn’t come close to getting them there. I’m not saying that it has to be Hopkins, Flowers, or both, and I’m OK taking a different prospect in the first, just as long as they address it with a real upgrade. Adding Broderick Jones ( e.g…) by itself is not going to make them a good playoff team, But adding Jones and Hopkins or Flowers could get them there, as I think that would improve everyone around them.

 

[Wozzy]

I understand the need for an OT, but do you really think they can be a serious playoff team with this receiving corps? Or are you ok with a slow build and another year watching the playoffs from the golf course?

Outside of Kelce, what was overly special about Kansas City's receiver corps last year, especially considering we took their best WR?

Hunter Henry and Mike Gesicki aren't Kelce necessarily, but two them are better than one of him. They're easily one of the best TE tandems in the league. Parker, JuJu, Bourne are all capable NFL WR's. Tyquan Thornton, Marcus Jones are supremely talented and have game changing speed.

They have 11 draft picks and there are a lot of talented WR's in this draft class. I don't get the weapons obsession, new weapons don't automatically = more offense. And the best new weapons are often the guys coming out of college, because you own their rights for the next four years for pennies on the dollar.

The best possible thing they could have done to improve this offense, they already did in hiring Bill O'Brien and Adrian Klemm. If they can't get Juedy or Hopkins for mid-late round draft capital, so be it... draft some weapons.

 

[Ivan]

I'm going cold on Hopkins, i watched last years receptions and it was just 10-15yrds and then instantly being tackled. Giving up draft capital and a big salary for a 31yr old WR that is on the slide makes me nervous. Would he be the WR1 that people are talking of?

To me Hopkins is a player who would draw coverage away from other receivers, and be the guy who would consistently keep drives going, and they need that desperately. There were way too many possessions that went nowhere last season, and that puts the defense in a terrible position. It also gives opposing offenses 12-14 drive opportunities, and if you give Mahomes, Allen, Burrows that many drive opportunities then they will hang 35 plus on you every time, and this Patriots offense cannot match that.

 

[varjao]

I don't think the Patriots operate that way, #1 impact WR

apart from Moss I don't remember a true #1 WR the way it's defined in these days, it seems it's not only a Belichick thing, it seems that this philosophy is top down in the organization

the Pats have a few #2 and #3 guys and in theory would rather spread the ball between these guys, it was that way with McDaniels and with Bob too back in the day.

 

[Ivan]

Outside of Kelce, what was overly special about Kansas City's receiver corps last year, especially considering we took their best WR?

Hunter Henry and Mike Gesicki aren't Kelce necessarily, but two them are better than one of him. They're easily one of the best TE tandems in the league. Parker, JuJu, Bourne are all capable NFL WR's. Tyquan Thornton, Marcus Jones are supremely talented and have game changing speed.

They have 11 draft picks and there are a lot of talented WR's in this draft class. I don't get the weapons obsession, new weapons don't automatically = more offense. And the best new weapons are often the guys coming out of college, because you own their rights for the next four years for pennies on the dollar.

The best possible thing they could have done to improve this offense, they already did in hiring Bill O'Brien and Adrian Klemm. If they can't get Juedy or Hopkins for mid-late round draft capital, so be it... draft some weapons.

That’s a fair point, but Mac Jones isn’t Patrick Mahomes, and Mahomes showed he could get it done without Hill in the mix, which was really impressive.

I’m not someone who has ever obsessed over weapons, but Mac Jones has shown that he can’t get it done without them, in which case I think they need to give him the weapons. Buffalo gave Allen Diggs, Cincy gave Burrows Higgins and Chase, and Philly gave Hurst Brown and Smith, and each of them went to the next level with them. Jones is not a guy who can get it done on his own, so giving him the weapons to help him is important. There are a number that f ways to do that, but they need to find a way to get that done.

If others here are fine with this team as it stands, and drafting an OL in the 1st then that’s their opinion, I’m not, I think they need to do more to be a serious playoff team. Likewise if some here are fine with a slower build that’s their choice, I’m not, I think 4 years is enough time for Belichick to put a real playoff team in the field. I was fine with giving Belichick a year or two to deal with their cap issues, and 3-4 years to build a true playoff team, but the decisions he made last year are on him, and it cost them a full season of development, and now I believe he has to make some gutsy moves to get them back in the mix. I’m not saying that he should be fired if they don’t radically improve this season, but I will definitely be questioning where they are headed if we see a repeat of last season. And the biggest question for their future is whether or not Jones has what it takes to be a franchise quarterback needs to be answered sooner than later. The best way to do that is by giving him all the tools, and then holding him accountable for his performance. Judging him in last season isn’t a good idea, because very few young QB’s could have succeeded in that position.

 

[Zuma]

IMO when the Patriots have been very successful it’s been because they have had some offensive threat that required a defense to double team. Sometimes that’s been a WR and sometimes it’s been a TE. I don’t think we are getting that kind of TE in the next few months but I’m hoping it’s a WR.

 

[Ivan]

I don't think the Patriots operate that way, #1 impact WR

apart from Moss I don't remember a true #1 WR the way it's defined in these days, it seems it's not only a Belichick thing, it seems that this philosophy is top down in the organization

the Pats have a few #2 and #3 guys and in theory would rather spread the ball between these guys, it was that way with McDaniels and with Bob too back in the day.

I’m not saying it has to be a Randy Moss #1 WR, but I do think it has to be a player whose presence makes them better immediately. That’s why I brought up Zay Flowers. He’s not a traditional #1, but he is a prospect whose skill set would complement their offense with perfectly. He would give them immediate speed and quickness in the way Hill did for Mahomes and Tua, and Lockett did for a Russell Wilson. If I were to make a comparison it would help the way Jalen Waddle helped in Miami. Even without adding Hopkins the Patriots would have two slot guys in Bourne and Smith-Schuster, a big possession receiver in Parker, a deep threat in Thornton, and immediate speed and quickness in Flowers, and they could mix them and create mismatches with them to fully utilize all of their offense, which again would leave it up to Mac Jones to show he can get the most out of them, and the most out of their offense.


As far as Belichick goes I think the reason he parted ways with Brady was because he wanted to rebuild the team to real contender status before hanging them up. He’s a coach/GM who has always used the college game to gauge where the pro game is going, and I do think he wanted to go to a mobile QB for the future, but the best opportunity to address QB ended up being a pocket passer. Jones was fine his rookie year, but they really screwed him oseason. He has his strengths and he has concerns, the biggest one to me is his inability to extend plays when there’s a pass rush, and there is always going to be a pass rush, so having a receiver he can go to in under two seconds, as Brady had with Welker and Edelman, is a priority. Right now, other than Marcus Jones, who is only a part time receiver, he doesn’t have that player, and he needs that help. And while I don’t believe Kraft will dictate to Belichick which specific decisions to make, I do think he weighs in on the overall picture and has probably made it known that he wants them to be aggressive in getting back to contender status. We will see?

 

[Ivan]

I don't think the Patriots operate that way, #1 impact WR

apart from Moss I don't remember a true #1 WR the way it's defined in these days, it seems it's not only a Belichick thing, it seems that this philosophy is top down in the organization

the Pats have a few #2 and #3 guys and in theory would rather spread the ball between these guys, it was that way with McDaniels and with Bob too back in the day.

But that was with the GOAT at QB, which allowed them to spend less capital at the skill positions, and spread it to the rest of the team. Average QB’s don’t succeed with average talent at the skill positions. And so far Jones has shown himself to be an average QB. Some can argue he is worse than that, and some can argue he’s better than that, but giving him all the tools to succeed, and then judging him would be definitive, and allow them to make the long term decision at QB.

 

[BTTA]

So what move would you make to try and make them a serious playoff team? Are you satisfied with where they are at? Is there a draft pick you think they can take to make them a serious playoff team?

I'm just pointing out that they dress 3-4 WR each game, and you've built a WR room of 7-8 guys, at least 5 of whom see themselves as full time starters.

 

[Ivan]

I'm just pointing out that they dress 3-4 WR each game, and you've built a WR room of 7-8 guys, at least 5 of whom see themselves as full time starters.

I don’t see it as a 7-8 WR room, I see it as a 5 WR room, Slater is a ST player, he’s not a WR regardless of designation. There are a number of different ways to make the unit, but there is a lack of ST players they will have to deal with, unless they bypass Hopkins and Jeudy, and draft the receiver, in which case a guy like Flowers would almost certainly play some ST’s.

 

[patfanken]

You forgot to add one possibility to the poll that I think would have won. That is, "wait until next year when the FA class will be better and we will have much more money"

 

[crawhammer]

Outside of Kelce, what was overly special about Kansas City's receiver corps last year, especially considering we took their best WR?

They had the best QB in the NFL, which makes a big difference. And Kelce is as impactful as any receiver in the league. Add in the other KC TEs and Mahomes had 16 TDs to that group. Also, Mahomes had 12 TD passes to RBs.

Hunter Henry and Mike Gesicki aren't Kelce necessarily, but two them are better than one of him. They're easily one of the best TE tandems in the league.

You haven't seen them take one snap together yet. I'm pretty sure Henry and Jonnu were similarly hyped up in 2021. And where can I place a bet on who'll have the better 2023... Kelce or Henry & Gesicki? Also, the implication of your comment is you wouldn't trade Henry and Gesicki for Kelce. Which means you would pass on the most lopsided trade in the history of the NFL.

Parker, JuJu, Bourne are all capable NFL WR's.

This is true.

Tyquan Thornton, Marcus Jones are supremely talented and have game changing speed.

You're asking a lot out of Marcus if you think he's going to be a highly impactful player for the offense. And what we witnessed of Thornton last season was not "supreme talent."

The best possible thing they could have done to improve this offense, they already did in hiring Bill O'Brien and Adrian Klemm. If they can't get Juedy or Hopkins for mid-late round draft capital, so be it... draft some weapons.

Your asking price is too low if you want either one of those receivers. My preference is Hopkins but I'll be surprised if he and O'Brien embrace a reunion.

 

[Wozzy]

They had the best QB in the NFL, which makes a big difference. And Kelce is as impactful as any receiver in the league. Add in the other KC TEs and Mahomes had 16 TDs to that group. Also, Mahomes had 12 TD passes to RBs.

Don't change the subject, we're talking weapons.... specifically wide receivers.

We've clearly seen that even great QB's can't turn bad WR's into good ones. Juju's best season came with Ben Rapistburger not Mahomes. Brady never won a ring with Randy Moss, he won with Troy Brown, with Edelman, Patten, Givens... late round picks and slot receivers.

You haven't seen them take one snap together yet. I'm pretty sure Henry and Jonnu were similarly hyped up in 2021. And where can I place a bet on who'll have the better 2023... Kelce or Henry & Gesicki? Also, the implication of your comment is you wouldn't trade Henry and Gesicki for Kelce. Which means you would pass on the most lopsided trade in the history of the NFL.

I wouldn't trade Henry and Gesicki for Kelce... you're right. Kelce is in the perfect situation with Reid and Mahomes, he's not going to replicate that elsewhere and two TE's is always better than one... no matter how you try and convince us individual players have magic powers.

You're asking a lot out of Marcus if you think he's going to be a highly impactful player for the offense. And what we witnessed of Thornton last season was not "supreme talent."

He was a highly impactful player last season, he made the All Pro team. The kid is electric, he is a threat to score whenever the ball is in his hands. The team doesn't need him to play offense alone to be dangerous, they don't even need him to start. Thornton missed time with injury and showed flashes last season. His future is unwritten... as is any draftee they might take at the WR position.

Your asking price is too low if you want either one of those receivers. My preference is Hopkins but I'll be surprised if he and O'Brien embrace a reunion.

My asking price is too low because that is reasonable return value. Hopkins is good but we got Randy Moss at the same age for a 4th. Jeudy doesn't simply need to be traded for, he needs to be traded for and he wants a new contract. Is Jeudy a #1 WR anyway, he's never had a 1000 yard season, why would he be worth a 1st round pick?

 

[Chevy]

I understand the need for an OT, but do you really think they can be a serious playoff team with this receiving corps? Or are you ok with a slow build and another year watching the playoffs from the golf course?

A better OL means more time in the pocket. More time in the pocket means more time for routes to develop. Add in the delay/LB freeze due to a very good running game / play action. The result should be an improvement in the passing game with the current corps.