If PSU gets the Death Penalty What Happens to O'Brien?

[Simple Jack's Brother]

You should know by now this isn't just a problem with a few individuals.

Maybe only a few individuals broke the law.

But the problem is a serious issue of the culture up there, and the sycophants and morons who turned football into a religion there. Even still, just listen to the fools up there as they react to Paterno's statue coming down.

You've obviously never set foot on campus. This is not a culture issue, this is about the failings of a few men who were put in place to deal with these kinds of things, and let their own egos and agendas get in the way. If you think for a second any of the current students, alumni, or locals would have stood for this kind of behavior if they knew what was happening, you're dead wrong. These are the same people who raised $10 million for pediatric cancer last year for the world's largest student-run philanthropic organization, and i'll bet anything they break that total this year.

Penn State fans have pride in their school, not the football program. Yes the football program is part of the school, but it does not define it. Get off your high horse.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

You've obviously never set foot on campus. This is not a culture issue, this is about the failings of a few men who were put in place to deal with these kinds of things, and let their own egos and agendas get in the way. If you think for a second any of the current students, alumni, or locals would have stood for this kind of behavior if they knew what was happening, you're dead wrong. These are the same people who raised $10 million for pediatric cancer last year for the world's largest student-run philanthropic organization, and i'll bet anything they break that total this year.

Penn State fans have pride in their school, not the football program. Yes the football program is part of the school, but it does not define it. Get off your high horse.

You are so dead wrong about his not being a culture issue. Paterno has been unable to speak intelligably for years, yet he was still head coach of a top tier college football team. If you don't recognize this as hero worship then there is little hope for you.

 

[UK_Pat37]

What? You don't see a competitive advantage? You honestly believe if this had come to surface in 1998 or 2001 that recruits would have still all gone to PSU? This was a cover-up of Nixonian standards, and it was all done in the name of football and keeping up appearances, while keeping the PSU football machine making money, while allowing Paterno his record for all-time wins.

Well I guess you're going to use that time machine of yours to find out....


...simple fact is, had Paterno and the powers that be done the right thing, we don't know whether this would have seriously damaged their rep. If they'd not covered it up, the situation wouldn't be of the same proportions as it is now that's for sure.

However much this is about football, you cannot strip a program of its wins for this. Had Paterno outed his DC he would have still been in a job and likely still got the same amount of wins. I honestly don't think people would have just stopped going there had they done the right thing to do.

So no. I still don't think you can strip a man of his wins. The cover up is not in the slightest related to games won on the field. Worst of all, it had nothing to do with all those players and staff who had no involvement and no clue...the guys who notched those wins on the board.

 

[Deus Irae]

What? You don't see a competitive advantage? ...

It's tough to see what's not there.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Well I guess you're going to use that time machine of yours to find out....


...simple fact is, had Paterno and the powers that be done the right thing, we don't know whether this would have seriously damaged their rep. If they'd not covered it up, the situation wouldn't be of the same proportions as it is now that's for sure.

However much this is about football, you cannot strip a program of its wins for this. Had Paterno outed his DC he would have still been in a job and likely still got the same amount of wins. I honestly don't think people would have just stopped going there had they done the right thing to do.

So no. I still don't think you can strip a man of his wins. The cover up is not in the slightest related to games won on the field. Worst of all, it had nothing to do with all those players and staff who had no involvement and no clue...the guys who notched those wins on the board.

Perhaps you missed the memo. Competitive advantage isn't the issue here.

 

[patsfan13]

Well the NCAA sure showed the kids in the wrestling program, Baseball program, softball, track that they will crack down. The kids (many from economically disadvantaged backgrounds) who won't get scholarships for football that'll show em.

BTW what did they do to the AD and President and other administrators?

The shame of course is that Paterno is dead so he will never answer for his transgressions.

I had hoped that the Univ President , AD and others would have been sanctioned by the NCAA instead the kids in the athletic program who did nothing wrong get punished.

If the Administration is punished instead of the program you will see things cleaned up quick....Fire a few Presidents and take away their pensions and peks and see how fast things change and what is no longer covered up.

 

[Steve102]

Well I guess you're going to use that time machine of yours to find out....


...simple fact is, had Paterno and the powers that be done the right thing, we don't know whether this would have seriously damaged their rep. If they'd not covered it up, the situation wouldn't be of the same proportions as it is now that's for sure.

However much this is about football, you cannot strip a program of its wins for this. Had Paterno outed his DC he would have still been in a job and likely still got the same amount of wins. I honestly don't think people would have just stopped going there had they done the right thing to do.

So no. I still don't think you can strip a man of his wins. The cover up is not in the slightest related to games won on the field. Worst of all, it had nothing to do with all those players and staff who had no involvement and no clue...the guys who notched those wins on the board.

I really think you're missing the point. This is a posthumous penalty for Paterno. It removes him as winningest coach in the NCAA. As far as the rest of the program, it's irrelevant. The $60m, loss of scholarships and no bowls for four years are much more crippling. Short of the death penalty, this is an attempt to change the culture at PSU. The sanctions, and the wins vacated, are done to remove the deification of Paterno. The PSU football culture no longer has their poster boy.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

It's tough to see what's not there.

Hallucinations are often a side effect of certain medications... especially when perscribed incorrectly.

 

[Steve102]

It's tough to see what's not there.

I think we're gonna agree to disagree.

 

[BradyManny]

You've obviously never set foot on campus. This is not a culture issue, this is about the failings of a few men who were put in place to deal with these kinds of things, and let their own egos and agendas get in the way. If you think for a second any of the current students, alumni, or locals would have stood for this kind of behavior if they knew what was happening, you're dead wrong. These are the same people who raised $10 million for pediatric cancer last year for the world's largest student-run philanthropic organization, and i'll bet anything they break that total this year.

Penn State fans have pride in their school, not the football program. Yes the football program is part of the school, but it does not define it. Get off your high horse.

Every objective analysis of the situation has suggested culture was an issue. You clearly have not been paying attention or listening to your fellow alums.

As for all the stuff you're accusing me of saying or insinuating, I did not say, so until you stop introducing strawmen, I'm not going to waste my time conversing with you.

 

[Deus Irae]

Hallucinations are often a side effect of certain medications... especially when perscribed incorrectly.

I have no intention of bandying barbs with you on this thread. You'll have to troll someone else today.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

I have no intention of bandying barbs with you on this thread. You'll have to troll someone else today.

All set with trolling. Although was fun kicking the snot out or your argument, the faulty medication regiment is no joke. You need to get that straightened out.

 

[BradyManny]

There's no mistake at all in separating them, because they are separate.

Clearly there's a couple separate issues here. There is "can the NCAA police ethics among its members?" To that, I've repeatedly admitted ignorance - but stated my opinion on the matter nonetheless.

But then there is the issue of "did what happened at Penn State benefit their football program unfairly?" At the core of the NCAA's violations for recruiting is preventing an unfair recruiting advantage.

How did PSU recruit fairly by covering up damaging crimes that would've destroyed their recruiting chances?

If you want to argue Sandusky's actions had nothing to do with NCAA football, maybe. But why else did the men involved cover this situation up, but to protect the football program's brand?

 

[mgteich]

It is you who haven't a clue. You seem not to understand just how important Joe Paterno was/is to Penn State, and how fully integrated his sainthood was to the culture of the school. He easily could have been elected mayor, and perhaps congressman. No school security agent would have thought of crossing him, and no athletic director, no HR director, and, in the end, no school president.

If Joe Paterno didn't think that there was an issue, that would have good enough for any Penn State fan and certainly anyone on campus. The shock is that Joe Paterno knew and did little.

Obviously, if the fans knew that kids were being raped, this would not have been acceptable to them. No one is accusing Penn State fans of being uncaring monsters.

The issue is that Penn State fans will need to come to terms with the FACT that the their local folk hero and god was responsible for at best horrible judgement and immoral conduct. If he were still alive, he might have been indicted and certainly would have been sued for millions. Penn State fans are much more shocked and grieving over Paterno's involvement than regarding anything else. Crimes happen, even horrible ones. Heroes and gods (and their statues) come down with difficulty. The falling of heroes is much more difficult to deal with than crimes on campus.

You've obviously never set foot on campus. This is not a culture issue, this is about the failings of a few men who were put in place to deal with these kinds of things, and let their own egos and agendas get in the way. If you think for a second any of the current students, alumni, or locals would have stood for this kind of behavior if they knew what was happening, you're dead wrong. These are the same people who raised $10 million for pediatric cancer last year for the world's largest student-run philanthropic organization, and i'll bet anything they break that total this year.

Penn State fans have pride in their school, not the football program. Yes the football program is part of the school, but it does not define it. Get off your high horse.

 

[Deus Irae]

All set with trolling. Although was fun kicking the snot out or your argument, the faulty medication regiment is no joke. You need to get that straightened out.

You didn't kick the snot out of anything, you just made really stupid claims, and we're done here. Have a nice day.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

You didn't kick the snot out of anything, you just made really stupid claims, and we're done here. Have a nice day.

Don't forget your ball.

 

[Deus Irae]

Clearly there's a couple separate issues here. There is "can the NCAA police ethics among its members?" To that, I've repeatedly admitted ignorance - but stated my opinion on the matter nonetheless.

But then there is the issue of "did what happened at Penn State benefit their football program unfairly?" At the core of the NCAA's violations for recruiting is preventing an unfair recruiting advantage.

How did PSU recruit fairly by covering up damaging crimes that would've destroyed their recruiting chances?

If you want to argue Sandusky's actions had nothing to do with NCAA football, maybe. But why else did the men involved cover this situation up, but to protect the football program's brand?

While there are many issues that one can make out of this, there is no competitive advantage issue, and there is no "they aren't separate" issue. Both of those are simply incorrect assertions being made by people trying to justify their willingness to allow vengeance about something that doesn't even involve them, by a body that didn't legitimately have the authority to hand down such vengeance.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

It is you who haven't a clue. You seem not to understand just how important Joe Paterno was/is to Penn State, and how fully integrated his sainthood was to the culture of the school. He easily could have been elected mayor, and perhaps congressman. No school security agent would have thought of crossing him, and no athletic director, no HR director, and, in the end, no school president.

If Joe Paterno didn't think that there was an issue, that would have good enough for any Penn State fan and certainly anyone on campus. The shock is that Joe Paterno knew and did little.

Obviously, if the fans knew that kids were being raped, this would not have been acceptable to them. No one is accusing Penn State fans of being uncaring monsters.

The issue is that Penn State fans will need to come to terms with the FACT that the their local folk hero and god was responsible for at best horrible judgement and immoral conduct. If he were still alive, he might have been indicted and certainly would have been sued for millions. Penn State fans are much more shocked and grieving over Paterno's involvement than regarding anything else. Crimes happen, even horrible ones. Heroes and gods (and their statues) come down with difficulty. The falling of heroes is much more difficult to deal with than crimes on campus.

THIS :agree: Pretty much sums it all up.....

The only thing I could add to that is that there are still thousands upon thousands of fans who STILL see Paterno as nothing short of being god and are still in denial that this man was involved in a cover up of a heinous crime.

 

[Steve102]

While there are many issues that one can make out of this, there is no competitive advantage issue, and there is no "they aren't separate" issue. Both of those are simply incorrect assertions being made by people trying to justify their willingness to allow vengeance about something that doesn't even involve them, by a body that didn't legitimately have the authority to hand down such vengeance.

Clearly, Penn State thought the NCAA had the authority to levy the sanctions. If the university felt they had legal precedence to fight it, they had $60m reasons to do so.

Consent decree:
http://a.espncdn.com/pdf/2012/0723/pennstateconclusions.pdf

 

[BradyManny]

While there are many issues that one can make out of this, there is no competitive advantage issue, and there is no "they aren't separate" issue. Both of those are simply incorrect assertions being made by people trying to justify their willingness to allow vengeance about something that doesn't even involve them, by a body that didn't legitimately have the authority to hand down such vengeance.

Deus, to me you're making a lot of statements here but I haven't seen you take the time to back it up yet. Pointing out there are those on the other side of the argument who are incapable of being impartial is not evidence enough. Why is there no competitive advantage here? You can say there isn't, but I want to know why. I think there's a cogent argument suggesting there is - and its not just coming from some lynch mob.