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Idle thoughts - the "good loss" edition

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. BaconGrundleCandy

    BaconGrundleCandy PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What I wrote last night...
    "Ravens played a great game tonight for the most part. Lost of power/pistol, motion bunches w the perhaps the most dangerous running QB ever. Lamar played a great game overall. He controlled & ran his offense to a T. Anyone not giving him credit by now has a clear agenda. Nothing wrong w admitting other teams/players are good. Also please go watch A22 of Lamar if you think he's not that hard to bring down or the Pats should just hit. So much easier then said. Lamar has been avoiding the big shot forever now. He's an impossible mesh cover for LBs & DBs in the open field are still outmatched in most cases.


    Pats came out in tempo & looked like 2010-12 except targeting White/11 w Sanu mixed in. It absolutely did have an effect on Balt. Ultimately we shot ourselves in the foot w TO's & penalties & a few dumb mistakes. I said this eariler but Gronk is all the difference. Blocking, tough/easy rec's, RZ ... We need another WR to step up big time. Wynn is obviously huge too. It'll give us some flexibility back in terms of freeing up some guys that wont have help/chip & just give us a much better player.

    I also made a point yest I believe that the D could have a game like this & still be good. They are still very good. Balt was smart, disciplined & frankly arent afraid of us like some other teams fold.

    Speaking of fold I can't believe some thought this team would fold early on. We lost a game. NOT a big deal. It's how we respond in 2 weeks which matters. This team has 20 years of benefit > doubt & will make a serious run at the SB imo.

    Please dont flood this board w trash from the usual suspects tomorrow. They've been wrong way more then right. They literally get together, pick sides, go over talking points, get stuff from info/funny stuff from producers & put on a SHOW. Dont be that guy.

    Let's get healthy & enjoy 8-1. Still a top 3-5 team in the league".

    Expanding a bit after powering through a quick rewatch on my lunch break. Focusing of D here bc the O certainly isn't in its final form. We used a lot of tempo last night. Before that we really didnt see it besides W1 Pitt. Mentioned it above but again who knows what we loom like a month from now which is the only thing that matters.

    Bill will be kicking himself & probably already is for some of the moves last night on D. The strength of our D is our secondary or at least has been w the LB corp playing unreal as well. Last night Balt put our LBs/Hook defender in bad spots throughout the night. Not just physially, but lack of adjustments that put our guys at a disadvantage (think 1 v 2 when WE WANT 2 V 1) taking on the RO. Balt constructed a beautiful game plan. The staff & Jackson deserve a ton of credit. Why attack the best secondary in the league deep? Take what we give you & attack our hooks & backers.

    We often appreciate that type of patience & attention to detail here so its not hard to tip your cap towards Balt. At first watching some runs I thought they were hitting us w the same spilt zone we've had success w this year & years past but a zone variation off gap reads but I'm exhausted & still think I saw a lot of zone runs in there. Maybe camouflaged Idk. I saw pistol, some great clean ro. Again mentioned it above but I felt bad for the backers. Very tough to prepare for that & then have execute on a tight rope. Ravens TEs did a great job blocking as well. They had them stalk blocking, wham, wrapping the edges. Very good out in space & a unit that understands how important they are to the team's success.

    Our DL got reached & reached & run over last night. Yanda might be a HOF player & what every G should strive to be. Incredibly tough & smart but that whole OL just kicked our ass up front.

    Ive seen Shelton & Guy & others mentioned. Guy had a few nice plays but none stood out to me tbh. NONE attacked first, was aggressive enough or had a concrete plan of attack from snap to snap. Talk abt murder against a team like Balt. You can't just let them dicate the rep from start to finish like we did. Again the reached us, moved us out the way, way too easy.

    The good thing is a lot of this approach & can be fixed. The Ravens have an incredibly diverse rushing attack w a dynamic QB that can beat you through the air. Not easy to prepare for let alone accomplish. They bullied us last night but we didn't do enough or adjust quick enough imo & frankly just didn't play our best game.

    The Ravens played a great game. B+/A, easy. Good for them, but it's Nov. We played our worst game of the year. They absolutely contributed to our ****ty play but again we were in a hole early & either didnt adjust (1 v 2 on ro) or adjusted too late. Tough stretch coming up but we have key positions coming back & the bye week at the right time.
    We'll get better & healthier, it's early Nov.
     
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  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Respectfully agree to disagree, on grounds of what I meant to say after somebody calls me on my bullsh1t. Okay I guess in a hair-splitting way there are degrees of bad. It is less bad to learn from failure than to just fail. It is better to not fail.

    This too is sound. But where does it end? Can I learn yet more from a 3-13 season? I know, snarky, but you get the idea. If you think about it, you can learn from losses... but if you don't lose you must have learned whatever it is you're trying to learn from the losses, i.e., something to do with how to win.

    I don't want to be extremist, I'm just thinking it through... and I think, if you're winning, that's always better than losing. I just don't see the "better to lose" side of the argument. And if that's the case, then we are still just looking at degrees of loss (that way lies Jerseyness).


    This paragraph tracks w/what I think, but respectfully, I think is out of step with your first couple of points. But probably we're overthinking it. I get what you mean.
     
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly Picks Winner

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    Remember the mantra we often heard by the announcers that "Tom Brady's favorite receiver is the open receiver"... it kind of seems how that you have to really, really win his favor to have a ball thrown to you..

    IMO it seems if there were more credible targets they O might move better.. right now #12 is focused on a few, and to have these guys play all the snaps seems to defy the philosophy of this team..
     
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  4. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The most frustrating thing for me was the ridiculous calls against the Patriots. The first 5 went in favor of the Ravens.

    These 3 really got me..

    1st one - Neutral Zone Infraction on the FG.. The Ravens Long Snapper had his head down, Snapped it back up and then put it back down. That's a false start. It was called on Andrews previously.. It should have been called. That gave the Ravens 7 instead of 3.

    2nd One -The Neutral Zone infraction on Butler. While Butler DID jump, he never crossed the plane. The O-line clearly moved.

    3rd one - The lack of a holding call on Seth Roberts who held Jonathan Jones on Ingrams 53 yard run. Roberts had one hand under Jones right shoulder pad and the and the other hand yanking on the left sleeve preventing Jones from getting over to Ingram. This was especially infuriating after they called the holding on Shaq Mason.
     
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  5. SEA_Pat

    SEA_Pat Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I believe this was a deliberate strategy both for the reasons you mention and because, as we've seen before, Bill likes to keep his powder dry when he meets regular season opponents that he identifies as likely playoff opponents. Play them vanilla and familiarize the players with their scheme and speed, then put in the full game plan when it counts. Chess vs. Checkers, etc.
     
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  6. moejr

    moejr In the Starting Line-Up

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    I was not disappointed in the O last night. They were moving the ball and marching when Edelman coughed up the ball. We could have gone up 20-17 on that drive but instead they took it to the house and went up 24-13. That killed our momentum and gave it back to them. D sucked overall. Run D was horrible. It is funny how at the beginning of the season our O was stout then injuries and bonehead players have derailed it. TB started the season great then the **** hit the fan and his production went down
     
  7. patfanken

    patfanken PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One thing that occurred to me as I watched all the Lamar love in the aftermath of win Sunday night, was the fact that when you put his passing and rushing yards together it only amounted to about 220 yds. Brady on his own accounted for 285.

    Now this isn't to denigrate the great job Jackson did. He showed great presence in close situations in that game. He was truly clutch. But the LEVEL of acclaim he's getting is WAY overblown. It's like first it was Mahomes, then it was Prescott, then it was Wilson; every young QB who flashes goes from zero to hero in record time. Of those I mentioned only Wilson has proven he can do it year in and year out. And Jackson hasn't even come CLOSE to doing what Mahomes has. And NONE of them are even close to Brady's league even still

    Of the QB's mentioned I would LOVE to have all three run the Pats, though Mahomes would be my first choice. But if I had to win ONE game to save my life, I still take old man Brady this year.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  8. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    I disagree with this sentence.

    It is absolutely the philosophy of this team given the limitations they were under. If you are already constrained by only being able to run one personnel group and decide to go no huddle out of there you can't add players on the field that limit the concepts you can use even further.

    Odds are Meyers simply is not flexible enough (yet) to be as valuable. Especially when Sanu puts additional constraints onto the route combinations you can run because its pretty likely he doesn't yet have the entire playbook in him.

    I think the way you approach this wrong is to think "if we only had another open option" instead of Dorsett (or any other player) who was not targeted when in reality he was never meant to be targeted in most of those situations. In many cases his main job was to run his route to clear out space or drag defenders with him to make for a higher probability throw for Brady.

    Check out this "follow" concept explained by Lazar:



    Look how deliberate the choice of routes for Burkhead and Sanu are to clear out space for Edelman in the MOF. Will the other two get credit for creating that space for Brady to make an easily completion on the stat sheet ?

    At least that is one of the ways I approach looking at things.
     
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  9. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    The one thing you gotta give him credit for is that he got coached well and never panicked on third / fourth downs. It is not like the Pats pulled some rabbits out of their hats with exotic looks but he still set his protections correct, read the rush and was accurate on the execution.

    All the read option and scrambling stuff was not that impressive to me. Because that aspect of him we knew already. But staying calm and accurate on big downs wasn't something I was expecting in terms of consistency.

    Think how much different the tone could have been if he missed Brown when HT had him in his grasp and the Ravens started with a 3 & out. Being essentially flawless in situations like that is what won them the game.
     
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  10. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hey, I woke up in the middle of the night, so without regard to the 7 pages of posts here which might contain something on this...

    Anybody notice how sharply Jackson's "fast twitch" escapability contrasts with Brady's in-pocket subtlety (dictated, of course, by Brady's inferior athleticism)? The fascinating thing was that Brady moves the action with him/around him. Since he is never faster than his line, when they're not becoming turnstiles, his motions sort of flow with theirs. The pocket moves, he moves up in the pocket, etc. Jackson's a jackrabbit. If you get close, he needs to make you grab air, the faster the better. He'll leap backward using no known basis in the laws of physics, and "as far as possible" is the only amount that he has a setting for.

    I wonder whether that's something an enterprising DC can exploit, or indeed whether it's exploitable at all. It seemed like his jukes put him "on an island," i.e., his protection wasn't tracking with him and from a certain point onward, he left them behind (the pocket tended to disappear, and he was on his own to escape based on natural ability.) My imagination, or real thing?

    Thanks, somebody say I'm right so I feel like I typed in the middle of the night for a reason.
     
  11. PScottman

    PScottman 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I saw another example of the "wildcat" game and the Eagles RPO Super Bowl. Doesn't diminish any confidence that this is still a good Patriots team amongst the best in the league on any given day.
     
  12. pencilneckgeek

    pencilneckgeek Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Don't forget to count Wentz above the quickly anointed future of qbing. That didn't go so well last year. Should be interesting to check in on his progress in a couple weeks.
     
  13. 50-yard-line

    50-yard-line In the Starting Line-Up

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    Philly has a bye this week?

    So THREE WEEKS IN A ROW, the Pats play a team that has two weeks to prepare for them?

    That's kind of, you know, screwed up.
     
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  14. 50-yard-line

    50-yard-line In the Starting Line-Up

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    RG lit it up in 2012.

    3200 yards passing, 20 tds, 5 ints.
    Another 815 yards rushing with 7 tds.

    He was good in 2013, too, but you could see the Ds adjusting.

    And then, the inevitable.

    Baltimore knew they had little chance to be a contender in 2019, so Harbaugh took a chance, drafting Jackson, then changing his entire offense to fit the guy. 3 TEs, short passes, etc.

    Running backs miss time with stingers, concussions, and often major injuries. If Jackson goes down, the Baltimore offense has to completely shift.

    It's a gamble. One I doubt you'd ever see an old-school coach like BB take.

    Jackson is exactly like RGIII. Wilson and Watson are different players. Mahomes is kind of in the middle of those four style-wise, but with a ton of talent. It remains to be seen how he'll try to adapt his game now that he's taking some painful lumps.

    Jackson shows me nothing to think he can change his game to a pocket passer and be successful.
     
  15. luuked

    luuked Pro Bowl Player

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    I think you are kinda right in a subtle way.

    The one thing all of those have in common is that they were either completely unexpected or are very hard to simulate in practice with the scout team. Especially the speed and precision at which the Eagles RPO offense and the Ravens attack last Sunday worked.

    We all have seen enough DYJ specials by now to know how Ernie and BB all say that games are usually won or lost on the practice field. In this case I'd say the coaching staff did a poor job preparing their players.

    The good news here is that first hand experience and tape will be valuable to be more prepared next time (if it comes). Also the Ravens need LJ to be near flawless on big downs, will he be able to do it again with an even bigger light on him in a potential playoffs matchup ?

    We will see in January..
     
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  16. One-If-By-Sea

    One-If-By-Sea On the Game Day Roster

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    He is not as good as RG3. He is not as good as M Vick. Russell Wilson? Were you watching L Jackson's throwing form?

    Amazing how the mobile QB gets anointed over and over. L Jackson will be great for a few years. We have seen this movie repeatedly.

    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
     
  17. venecol

    venecol PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Brady passed for 285! If he would've passed for 385 we probably win that game. Also, Lamar was responsible for 3 TDs, that alone wins the game.
     
  18. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yep.. Because catastrophic injuries like ligament tears are something you can do exercises for to prevent them.. OH.. Wait.. You can't.. They happen and you can't plan for them. You don't seem to understand that.. You also seem to ignore that the Patriots had drafted 2 O-linemen that would have helped. However, one didn't heal properly and the other got injured in Camp where they had to put him on IR and he was lost for the season.. But, yeah..

    I love your crap about the rest of the O-line being "suspect". Thuney continues to be one of the best in the league. I will give you that Mason and Cannon haven't been their best. However, it does seem that Mason has been playing hurt since he did miss the one game already..
     
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  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #2 - How do you figure that Gunner is gone? He was inactive due to an injury..

    #3 - "A bone-headed mistake by Jules"? WTF? It was an excellent play by the Ravens defense to knock the ball out.. What cost us the game was Brady's deep throw interception that was run back for 30 yards..

    The D didn't "Stink". They got screwed by the Refs on numerous calls..
     
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  20. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Something would be off if we didn't get to the point in a season where the sky is either falling or the roof is leaking or the house is on fire. So, same old, same old. Things have usually worked out OK in the BB/TB era.

    They have seven games to go, several against tough opponents. All they can worry about are those games; the rest will have to take care of itself.

    I think this Pats team will go 5--2 and end up 13--3. That should be good enough for HFA, unless the Ravens finish 7--1 and Houston and KC both go 7--0 (including W's v. the Pats)...even though those three scenarios are unlikely, last year the Pats showed that they can go on the road and win in late January anyway.

    On the other hand, if the Pats go 4--3 against mostly quality teams, then maybe things aren't destined to work out like we hope...or maybe they are...
     
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