Idle thoughts...Setting the record straight

[Rob0729]

This is a rosier projection than I'm ready to offer, but a good read and some interesting insights. I would warn against blaming all of the last two years on Cromartie's alleged inefficiency at corner. The Chargers pass-rush has been non-existent in that time - or, at least, far less formidable. That likely played a role in his diminishing stat-sheet.

But if you look at the 9 game stretch of Cromartie when the only time he played great, there are some clarifications to his performance. Against Indy he had 3 of his ten INTs for the season, but Manning threw three other INTs that game for a total of 6 INTs (one of the worst games of his career). Against KC, he intercepted Damon Huard once and Tyler Thigpen once (two back up caliber players). He intercepted Sage Rosenfels twice against Houston (another back up caliber QB). He Intercepted Duante Culpepper against Oakland (another back up caliber QB). He intercepted Vince Young against Tennessee (Young threw 25 INTs that season).

As I have said before, Cromartie's 2007 season was overrated.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Ok guys, I liked the OP and further remarks about springs, but if not sure about a contract check it out

if memory serves springs was signed to a 3 yr deal and thereby has 2 years left on his current deal, which gives us wheatly, wilhite, bodden butler and springs, a Corp I have no qualms with,

if anything well draft a rookie cb and replace the worsst of the ones currently on the roster

You're right, Springs is signed through 2011. I had gotten his contract mixed up with Fred Taylor

 

[muzz]

While the OP was insightful, and alot of what was stated is true as far at stats are concerned, I must disagree with the WR position, as we have NOONE that has real success/experience except Randy-
I think people need to understand that Welker was hurt VERY late in the season, and may not ever be the same, and my best GUESS is he won't be even remotely close to the same till at least game 8 or so, and I'm thinking he may be useful the last few weeks of the year, so I THINK Edleman will be the #2 unless they get someone better, and even though I like and have high hopes for him, I'm not thrilled with that prospect at all.

After that they have:
Aiken- Yeah sure.......#6 at best
Tate- Yeah sure.....I'm guessing #4 at best- another guy with a bum knee- great pick there Billy.......
Patten- #3 at best(if he takes his flintstones everyday ), probably a 5, which puts him right in front of Aiken at 6

They have alot of bodies, but no proven talent, they even struggled WITH Welker on the field being superman....
Maybe this year they will start using the TE more...oooops sorry, they don't HAVE a TE, and their track record of TE procurement has been marginal AT BEST.
This would seem to point to a more balanced attack, which I am certainly for......problem is their running game is littered with guys that cannot stay healthy like Morris, LoMo and Freddy....so who is gonna carry the ball?

There is PLENTY to be concerned about, the Defensive stats from last year are OK, as long as you take into account the Offensive "Talent" that the team played against:
Team-Games ( ? )-Offensive Rank and notes

Buffalo-(2) 30th ranked offense- please this team is pathetic
Miami-(2)- 17th ranked, and almost entirely run
Jets-(2)-20th and almost all run-The rookie QB HELPED the pats cuz he was pathetic.
Atlanta-(1) 16th
Baltimore-(1) 13th ranked offense-Scored 21 on us- dropped pass ended the game as Balt was marching.
Tennessee-(1) 12th ranked- was PITIFUL when we played them- they turned it around AFTER we played them.
Tampa-(1) 28th ranked- pathetic team, especially when we played them.
Denver-(1)- Ranked 15th
Indy-(1)Ranked 9th, we gave them 35 points, including not even having a chance to hold them when it counted.
NO-(1) 1st ranked offense, ripped the Pats a new one- 38 pts- and it could have been ALOT worse, Peyton felt bad for Billy and the boys.
Carolina- (1) ranked 19th- almost entirely a run team- the QB is currently unemployed because he was so terrible.
Jax- (1) ranked 18th, run team
Houston- (1) Ranked 4th- Gave up 34 points

I personally don't think the Defensive rank is entirely accurate to how good the team is, as when they played a reasonable quality offensive team, they gave up points.

I'm not saying the team sux, but to sit here and say there aren't any issues is just being blinded by homerism.
IMO this team has work to do if they want to be real SB contenders, I feel that being able to put a bit more pressure on the opp QB without having to throw the kitchen sink would be a pretty big deal, as the DBS on the team look to be able to do OK if the front line doesn't make them hold tight for 20 minutes on every passing play.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

some people simply see things sooner than others.....some see a pats team going downhill while others have yet to notice

 

[PatsBoy12]

The ignore feature helps a lot, but that doesn't make up for the loss of many threads that would have provided an interesting discussion but got side-tracked with Pats-suck and BB-is-a-dope commments.

If all you want is the latest news, I agree: ESPN Boston has become a very fine site. I go there often because I want them to get a lot of hits so ESPN doesn't pull the plug.

I hear you, Space.

 

[amazinPats]

Patfanken rushes to the rescue with his usual brand of knowledge and intelligence. Thank you!

I really like how this team has focused on keeping their own this offseason. So many valuable people had left last year, and they were left with a talented but rudderless team. You can't easily place a number on the value of bringing back people who know the system. I'm really looking forward to the draft.

 

[mgteich]

A fine post by Ken. However, let's review the two holes that I think are more difficult to fix than Ken does. And BTW, I think that these were our two biggest problems last year also.
====================

WIDE RECEIVER
We had a problem when we had Moss, Welker and no one as the #3. Edelman was fine as the slot sub. No Welker ios gone for awhile. We need a true X wide reciever. And we need a #4 who can substitute when any of the top 3 are injured. If we don't have a receiving TE, the #4 could be even more important.

I strongly disagree that it is easy for the patriots to find receivers in free agency. Who have been our great successes? Well, we did pick up Patten, our best free agent wide receiver. I think that we will indeed fill this hole in free agency, but we will need to bring in at least a couple of players. New wide receivers sometimes has a problem with our offense.

OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
OK. Let's presume that we bring back Burgess and that our pass rush is the same as last year. Are you fine with that?

OK, say that you are fine with Burgess and Banta-Cain as our passrush, with perhaps some help from a newly acquired DE.

We are presuming that Thomas is gone, aren't we? If not, I agree that there is no crisis. After all, if Thomas or his replacement plays up to what we wanted from Thomas, there is no issue. But if Thomas is gone,a re you really ready to count on Ninkovich and Crable as the saviors of the defense?

BOTTOM LINE
I agree with you basic premise that the doomsayers are crazy.
However, it may be just as crazy to believe that we can just plug in the kids we have and four new impact draftees and we will be Super Bowl favorites.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's the offseason. Homers will insist that BB will make every right move, that the team will find an All-Pro with every pick in the draft, that every free agent will be a resounding success and that a 19-0 season is just around the corner. Chicken Littles will insist that every Patriots draft pick will fail, that every free agent will be another disaster, that Brady's arm will fall off by August, and that the team will be lucky to finish ahead of Buffalo in the division.

Also, for everyone, be they Homer, Chicken Little, or someone in between, it's the annual batter of perspective:

"It's only March."
"Yeah, but the best free agents are already gone, the Patriots should have gotten Boldin, and there are more holes to fill than can be expected to be filled through the draft."

vs.

"The best free agents are already gone, the Patriots should have gotten Boldin, and there are more holes to fill than can be expected to be filled through the draft."

"Yeah, but it's only March."

 

[tanked_as_usual]

It's the offseason. Homers will insist that BB will make every right move, that the team will find an All-Pro with every pick in the draft, that every free agent will be a resounding success and that a 19-0 season is just around the corner. Chicken Littles will insist that every Patriots draft pick will fail, that every free agent will be another disaster, that Brady's arm will fall off by August, and that the team will be lucky to finish ahead of Buffalo in the division.

Also, for everyone, be they Homer, Chicken Little, or someone in between, it's the annual batter of perspective:

"It's only March."
"Yeah, but the best free agents are already gone, the Patriots should have gotten Boldin, and there are more holes to fill than can be expected to be filled through the draft."

vs.

"The best free agents are already gone, the Patriots should have gotten Boldin, and there are more holes to fill than can be expected to be filled through the draft."

"Yeah, but it's only March."

the homers here are no different than the homers on the toyota page on facebook. they are all in denial that any problem exists with any toyota vehicle......

 

[signbabybrady]

While I agree that there is a lot of concern maybe more then is needed one cannot deny that there are holes on this team that need to be filled. I think the frustration with most fans is that we have quite a few holes at STARTING POSITIONS and thus the alarm with some fans.The draft in itself while great does NOT guarantee that:

I completely disagree that we have quite a few holes at starting positions. We have holes at some role positions that people are considering starters or a few starters who are not pro bowlers so people feel should be replaced (which is just ridiculous expectations)

Example WR

We have our 2 starters Moss and Welker...further more we have two young kids with promise. But people are paniced that we can't count on Welker and need to improve WR well sure we need some help at the position but we are talking about depth not Starters.

Another Example

You mention Losing Green and replacing him with Wright. Well first that might not be the only mose at RE but When NT and LE are strengths of the D you have to realize that the RE might just be a serviceable player and not a stud.

If you go up down the roster you will find that we have a pretty decent started at every position and better than decent at most.

Even OLB we have two starters well at least until the Thomas thing is resolved.

We had a good draft last year filled with players who can take on roles to fill some of our wholes and we are stacked in the next 2 drafts.

This team is set up to compete for a title this year even though the product is not complete and set up to compete for the next 5 years how anyone can complain is beyond me and trust me you can tell a difference between the complainers (who think this team is dead) and people who are just trying to find ways to fix some holes. ( I haven't read enough from you to know where you stand so that last comment was in no way directed at you)

 

[Nunchucks]

You can't pencil Welker in as a starter, he had major knee surgery and may not even play a role this coming season...or ever again.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I completely disagree that we have quite a few holes at starting positions. We have holes at some role positions that people are considering starters or a few starters who are not pro bowlers so people feel should be replaced (which is just ridiculous expectations)

Example WR

We have our 2 starters Moss and Welker...further more we have two young kids with promise. But people are paniced that we can't count on Welker and need to improve WR well sure we need some help at the position but we are talking about depth not Starters.

Another Example

You mention Losing Green and replacing him with Wright. Well first that might not be the only mose at RE but When NT and LE are strengths of the D you have to realize that the RE might just be a serviceable player and not a stud.

If you go up down the roster you will find that we have a pretty decent started at every position and better than decent at most.

Even OLB we have two starters well at least until the Thomas thing is resolved.

We had a good draft last year filled with players who can take on roles to fill some of our wholes and we are stacked in the next 2 drafts.

This team is set up to compete for a title this year even though the product is not complete and set up to compete for the next 5 years how anyone can complain is beyond me and trust me you can tell a difference between the complainers (who think this team is dead) and people who are just trying to find ways to fix some holes. ( I haven't read enough from you to know where you stand so that last comment was in no way directed at you)

Lets play this game for a moment:
WR - moss....good
TE - ????
LOT - light/vollmer....good
LOG - mankins .... good
C - koppen.....good
ROG - neal....old/injury prone....need someone who can play for when he is out
ROT - kaczur/vollmer....good
RB - maroney is the most reliable the pats have...not good
WR/TE/FB - ????
WR - welker ????
QB - brady....good

LDE - warren....good
NT - wilfork....good
RDE - ?????
LOLB - ????
LILB - mayo.....good
RILB - guyton....not good
ROLB - TBC.....not good
CB - bodden....good
S - meriweather.....good
S - chung/sanders.....good
CB - butler......good

you could easily say that 9 out of 22 positions are either empty or need an upgrade...to claim that welker(injury), maroney/taylor/morris, neal(injury), guyton, TBC are of sufficient quality for a team expecting to perform at a high level is unrealistic.

so the expectation at this point is that those positions will either remain status quo, will be filled by a rookie, or be filled by someone else's reject......it is a fair conclusion to say that this team is now a couple of years away......maybe the front office will prove the naysayers wrong by filling those spots very well and the pats will once again rule the division.....but right now, you have to go all the way back to 2000 to see a more incomplete roster

 

[chevss454]

Great post, Ken. Couldn't agree more.
:eat3:

 

[Ring 6]

the homers here are no different than the homers on the toyota page on facebook. they are all in denial that any problem exists with any toyota vehicle......

You have just identified the biggest problem on this board.
Anyone with a negative point of view dismisses anything positive, because it can't be unbiased because its positive. Circular logic.

 

[Ring 6]

While the OP was insightful, and alot of what was stated is true as far at stats are concerned, I must disagree with the WR position, as we have NOONE that has real success/experience except Randy-
I think people need to understand that Welker was hurt VERY late in the season, and may not ever be the same, and my best GUESS is he won't be even remotely close to the same till at least game 8 or so, and I'm thinking he may be useful the last few weeks of the year, so I THINK Edleman will be the #2 unless they get someone better, and even though I like and have high hopes for him, I'm not thrilled with that prospect at all.

After that they have:
Aiken- Yeah sure.......#6 at best
Tate- Yeah sure.....I'm guessing #4 at best- another guy with a bum knee- great pick there Billy.......
Patten- #3 at best(if he takes his flintstones everyday ), probably a 5, which puts him right in front of Aiken at 6

They have alot of bodies, but no proven talent, they even struggled WITH Welker on the field being superman....
Maybe this year they will start using the TE more...oooops sorry, they don't HAVE a TE, and their track record of TE procurement has been marginal AT BEST.
This would seem to point to a more balanced attack, which I am certainly for......problem is their running game is littered with guys that cannot stay healthy like Morris, LoMo and Freddy....so who is gonna carry the ball?

There is PLENTY to be concerned about, the Defensive stats from last year are OK, as long as you take into account the Offensive "Talent" that the team played against:
Team-Games ( ? )-Offensive Rank and notes

Buffalo-(2) 30th ranked offense- please this team is pathetic
Miami-(2)- 17th ranked, and almost entirely run
Jets-(2)-20th and almost all run-The rookie QB HELPED the pats cuz he was pathetic.
Atlanta-(1) 16th
Baltimore-(1) 13th ranked offense-Scored 21 on us- dropped pass ended the game as Balt was marching.
Tennessee-(1) 12th ranked- was PITIFUL when we played them- they turned it around AFTER we played them.
Tampa-(1) 28th ranked- pathetic team, especially when we played them.
Denver-(1)- Ranked 15th
Indy-(1)Ranked 9th, we gave them 35 points, including not even having a chance to hold them when it counted.
NO-(1) 1st ranked offense, ripped the Pats a new one- 38 pts- and it could have been ALOT worse, Peyton felt bad for Billy and the boys.
Carolina- (1) ranked 19th- almost entirely a run team- the QB is currently unemployed because he was so terrible.
Jax- (1) ranked 18th, run team
Houston- (1) Ranked 4th- Gave up 34 points

I personally don't think the Defensive rank is entirely accurate to how good the team is, as when they played a reasonable quality offensive team, they gave up points.

I'm not saying the team sux, but to sit here and say there aren't any issues is just being blinded by homerism.
IMO this team has work to do if they want to be real SB contenders, I feel that being able to put a bit more pressure on the opp QB without having to throw the kitchen sink would be a pretty big deal, as the DBS on the team look to be able to do OK if the front line doesn't make them hold tight for 20 minutes on every passing play.

The average ranking (using your numbers) is 16.8. There are 32 teams, so the average of the NFL would equal 16.5.
The argument that the defensive rating are off because of a lack of quality opponents is not supported. The rankings are actually as accurate as could be, not affected by quality of opponnent in either direction.
The idea that we did worst against good offenses? Duh. Thats why they are good and the bad ones are bad.
I think you are looking for meaning where it doesnt exist.
We were an above average defenses (somewhere from 5th-11th depending on your metric) that faced on average the typical NFL offense, and did very well against the poor ones, well against the average ones, and not so well against the good ones. Just as would be expected.

Do you expect a defense to do better against good teams than bad?

 

[Clonamery]

show me where I said the patriots suck and BB is a dope....

you are a fool......

Namecalling is not very objective.

 

[spacecrime]

You have just identified the biggest problem on this board.
Anyone with a negative point of view dismisses anything positive, because it can't be unbiased because its positive. Circular logic.

No one likes EVERYTHING the Pats do. Everyone has something they wish were different. I wish they'd kept Vrabel. Don't care about Samuel or WMG, and the philosophy of letting a player go a year early rather than a year late generally works, but Vrabel would have been a help in hte locker room.

The problem for me is those who find nothing right. EVERYthing is a negative, which is tiresome, but as you commented on in another thread, let 'em have their say. State your thoughts and let them have theirs.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way, as anything stated positive is dismissed as homerism so there can be no discussion. So I used the IGNORE feature, and it mostly works. They get quoted but not that often.

Still, I have to wonder, if they dislike EVERYTHING the Pats do, why are they posting on a Patsfans forum? It's hard to tell their posts from those of Ibleedgreen and Redsux1918 sometimes.

 

[Rob0729]

You have just identified the biggest problem on this board.
Anyone with a negative point of view dismisses anything positive, because it can't be unbiased because its positive. Circular logic.

Well, in fairness to the other side, most of the negativity on this board is over the top. I have no problem with criticism of the team, but irrational criticism is another thing. Here are some examples over the recent month or so:

1.) The argument that the Pats were so disrepectful to the Pats that there were predictions that Wilfork would never play again (he would be the first player since Sean Gilbert back in the 90s to be a franchised player who sits out all or most of the season) or that the best case solution would be an Asante Samuel end game.

2.) The Seymour trade is so bad that even if the Pats draft the next Lawrence Taylor or Tom Brady with the Raiders' pick, the trade was a miserable failure. And that was argued by someone who prior to the end of the season would be considered a homer.

3.) Revisionist history that the last 5 years were a miserable failure and the 2009 season was about as bad as a 5-11 season. Plus a total disregard to admitting the Pats were one play away from going 19-0 in 2007.

4.) The Pats should have caved to Bodden's demand of $6-8 million a year and even pay extra just to make sure he doesn't hit free agency and since they didn't cave to his ridiculous demands, the Pats are screwed no matter what they do going forward.

5.) Kraft's failures with Patriot Place is making him cheap and won't spend on his team. For the record, Kraft said WEEI yesterday that not only does he treat both as two separate entities, but Patriot Place is profitable.

It is one thing to criticize moves or lack there of, but it is another to act like Chicken Littles. Yes, this team has issues and is not a legitimate contender until they do. I, considering I am considered a homer, do recognize the Pats have signficant holes at WR, TE, and OLB (maybe DE although the loss of Green wasn't that big of an impact) that will need to be addressed before the season starts. If the Pats add Josh Reed, Marquis Douglas, Derrick Mason or Antonio Bryant, Algea Crumpler, and Greg Ellis or Adelwe Ogulye before the draft; those holes are a heck of a lot smaller and the draft could complete those holes. That is a lot of shoes to fall, but all of them falling is far from impossible.

BTW, I just personally feel that Belichick deserves my and every Pats' fan's benefit of the doubt and trust. We are talking about a failure of a year where the Pats had 10 wins and won the division. We complain about the failure of the last five years when the Pats won 4 division titles, never won less than 10 games in a season, went to two conference championships, went to one Super Bowl, and won 18 straight games in a season. We are just a spoiled bunch of fans.

 

[Deus Irae]

No one likes EVERYTHING the Pats do. Everyone has something they wish were different. I wish they'd kept Vrabel. Don't care about Samuel or WMG, and the philosophy of letting a player go a year early rather than a year late generally works, but Vrabel would have been a help in hte locker room.

The problem for me is those who find nothing right. EVERYthing is a negative, which is tiresome, but as you commented on in another thread, let 'em have their say. State your thoughts and let them have theirs.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way, as anything stated positive is dismissed as homerism so there can be no discussion. So I used the IGNORE feature, and it mostly works. They get quoted but not that often.

Still, I have to wonder, if they dislike EVERYTHING the Pats do, why are they posting on a Patsfans forum? It's hard to tell their posts from those of Ibleedgreen and Redsux1918 sometimes.

The same basic argument can be made in reverse.

 

[emoney_33]

The same basic argument can be made in reverse.

No it can't, but it is attempted by a lot of chicken littles so as to justify their absurdity