I think that Mac is the last chance for Belichick.

[upstater1]

I said you're getting into semantic over calling Thuney good vs great. I am fine calling him great he was a great player for us. Wise is a solid role player who isn't bad but isn't good. I am not completely killing Bill for the 2017 draft but it is a draft that still counts. You can't just erase it because we traded for Cooks and Kony Ealy then traded picks all over the board.

As for Elandon Roberts he was a role player and a guy who gave us solid production for a late round pick but he was just a guy. We still have 6 rings without Elandon Roberts. I appreciate what we got out of him but I'm sorry he just didn't move the needle that much. Mitchell was a good player who played well in the very limited time he was here but it wasn't just a freak injury. He had knee problems throughout college and it ended up being the reason his career ended so quickly. I like the kid but I wouldn't say playing less than one season's worth of games as a 4th round pick is necessarily a good pick.

We're going to have to disagree. We have totally different definitions of what a role player is. A starter with 8 sacks isn't a role player in my book. Role players are a lot more limited. Wise got more playing time than any other lineman or linebacker. One of the highest %s on the team. If he's a role player, then all but 3 players are role players. More tie than Judon.

As for Mitchell, Belichick (and no coach in the NFL) can prevent freak injuries. But the fact is, that pick was worth the Super Bowl contribution alone.

 

[203Pat]

We're going to have to disagree. We have totally different definitions of what a role player is. A starter with 8 sacks isn't a role player in my book. Role players are a lot more limited. Wise got more playing time than any other lineman or linebacker. One of the highest %s on the team. If he's a role player, then all but 3 players are role players. More tie than Judon.

As for Mitchell, Belichick (and no coach in the NFL) can prevent freak injuries. But the fact is, that pick was worth the Super Bowl contribution alone.

We can agree to disagree. I will give it to you Wise did seem to flash early last year into a player that looked like he could be a plus level starter. He tapered off a bit production-wise as the year went on but pairing him with White this year could benefit the both of them. As for Mitchell I can't argue too much against him because I really liked the kid and what he did in his short time here. He reminded me of one of my favorite early dynasty Patriots, David Givens in that they seemed to come up big when their number was called when it really mattered.

 

[Hyped]

I said you're getting into semantic over calling Thuney good vs great. I am fine calling him great he was a great player for us. Wise is a solid role player who isn't bad but isn't good. I am not completely killing Bill for the 2017 draft but it is a draft that still counts. You can't just erase it because we traded for Cooks and Kony Ealy then traded picks all over the board.

As for Elandon Roberts he was a role player and a guy who gave us solid production for a late round pick but he was just a guy. We still have 6 rings without Elandon Roberts. I appreciate what we got out of him but I'm sorry he just didn't move the needle that much. Mitchell was a good player who played well in the very limited time he was here but it wasn't just a freak injury. He had knee problems throughout college and it ended up being the reason his career ended so quickly. I like the kid but I wouldn't say playing less than one season's worth of games as a 4th round pick is necessarily a good pick.

No, we don't. He had a critical tackle of Devonta Freeman in Houston....if he didn't....we probably are down 35-20 in the 4th with no chance of coming back...

 

[sb1]

Nobody is comparing Zappe to Brady.

It’s laughably absurd to even mention them in the same sentence. So don’t do it.

I was simply drawing the comparison between Bledsoe and Jones both highly touted and of 1st round draft pedigree. Right or wrong.

Jones is entering his third season. We still don’t know what his ceiling is. We don’t know how much better he’ll get if at all. That isn’t comparable at all to Bledsoe whose draft was 9 years in the rear view mirror. He was at his ceiling. We knew for a fact what we had. Apples and oranges. Their situations have nothing in common other than being first round picks.

BB could not just bench Bledsoe in lieu of Brady without serious repercussions. Same for Jones. The media went ape 5hit during the few games that Jones was replaced last season.

Your boy gets to start and it's time to 5hit or get off the pot. No more excuses.

If Mac Jones is “my boy” whatever that means - then I’ll say unless your boy Zappe somehow developed an NFL level arm and NFL level accuracy over one winter then my boy is a better QB than yours. I like the better QB to start over the inferior one and he will for reasons that have nothing to do with draft position

 

[upstater1]

We can agree to disagree. I will give it to you Wise did seem to flash early last year into a player that looked like he could be a plus level starter. He tapered off a bit production-wise as the year went on but pairing him with White this year could benefit the both of them. As for Mitchell I can't argue too much against him because I really liked the kid and what he did in his short time here. He reminded me of one of my favorite early dynasty Patriots, David Givens in that they seemed to come up big when their number was called when it really mattered.

Good comparison

 

[upstater1]

Just saw a tweet listing these players as not worthy of a 2nd contract:

No. 2: Chase Young
No. 8: Isaiah Simmons
No. 9: C.J. Henderson
No. 11: Mekhi Becton
No. 14: Javon Kinlaw
No. 18: Austin Jackson
No. 20: K'Lavon Chaisson
No. 21: Jalen Reagor

Hopefully our picks this year continue Belichick's brilliance of picking players in the middle of the round. Every single one of ours got their option years picked up by the Patriots, all 8 of them picked between 1-21.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Are we in cap trouble because of Agholor or Jonnu Smith? No. Teams are giving FAs huge contracts well into the future.

I'll name you a team in trouble: the Bills with Von Miller's contract. That sucker is pushed 5 years out. The Patriots tend to cut ties cleanly.

All the focus on star QB's and stacked rosters ignores the fact that it is almost impossible to stay at the top of the league for long periods of time. KC is the only team that has turned over the roster to deal with the ramifications of the salary cap and kept winning. The Pats have one more year to build the team to be ready for when the cap starts to take its toll on Buffalo, Jetes and Miami. In the meantime there is still the possibility of a 2001 Cinderella story if the team stays on course.

 

[duc359]

Mac is what he is. He's not Brady or Mahomes. He's an accurate guy that will produce well in a good situation.

I project with average or above health, a high 60's%, a 3 to 1.2 TD/Int ratio. Lots of handoffs. TOP ranking goes way up. Using contract value and AAV he'll be a top 8 value wise this year. Now, when the next contract comes around, if they give him $40M, he'll be down to 15th or likely worse.

QB draft looks promising next year. So, I think BB gets Mac maxed out and deals him, then wipes out the board to get the "guy", this "guys" odds to be a keeper are probably hovering at 50% given my criteria, so repeat the process again as needed. Sorry no guarantees.

Too many middling guys make too much. 17 QB's make from $24.3-$53M, and 10 of them to me are overpaid, some brutally. I don't want mediocre. Build the team, get the projected QB of the future. Don't get yourself Flacco'd.

 

[patfanken]

Brock Purdue played very well for a very good team for about a 1/3 of a season. Good for him, but that’s a far cry from playing QB for an entire season, not to mention getting through the playoffs with him. And you can get upset about the phrase “ death sentence” if you want Ken, but I think it’s pretty clear to most NFL fans that is you are screwed at QB you are pretty screwed as a team.

As far as your contention that it takes a team there was nothing in my post that said otherwise, and I have made the exact same argument to everyone here who has tried to claim it was all Brady throughout their dynasties.

As for the other QB’s you mentioned the best one playing today is Mahomes, and he’s won two already in his career. As far as Jackson goes I believe his passing is inconsistent, and you can’t have that in the playoffs. As far as Fields goes I have no idea who you are listening to, but I have never said anything about him one way or the other.

As far as Brady circa 2001 goes, he was able to come in, manage games exactly the way Belichick wanted him to, and benefit from a strong run game, defense, and special teams, and then make big plays at critical moments. And if you have read my posts on the draft you would realize that I have been making the argument that Belichick appears to be going back to that model to deal with the opponents they will face this season. They aren’t going to be a shoot out team, they are going to try to run the ball, control TOP, field position, and the number of drives their opponent gets, while playing strong defense and trying to win the turnover battle.

Feel free to go through as many of my posts as you want Ken, at no point have I ever suggested that QB’s win games by themselves, in fact just the opposite is true, as I have told those that insist it was all Brady that it took the whole team and coaching staff to win those Lombardi’s, he was just the most important player on them.

Sorry you took it personal. It wasn't my intent. WAY too many people focus on the QB as if, when you have a good one, you are all set. I was just reading your post and couldn't get past your remark about it being a "death sentence" if you don't have a great QB.

Winning games requires all 45 of the game day roster. The average NFL game consists of about 150 plays. When you go back and look at the film, the game will turn on about 4-6 of those plays. It's easy to see them AFTER the fact, but that's the way it is. That's what make the game so compelling to watch. You never know when it's going to happen.

I blame the media, especially ESPN. When I first started watching NFL football the games were ALWAY more about what the team was doing rather than the individuals That's not to say individual players weren't lauded or made stars, but it was never the most important aspect. I'm guessing some marketing genius at ESPN or ABC, or CBS, suggested that by personalizing it more, like Brady vs Manning, instead of the Pats vs the Colt, they would grab more eyes to their broadcasts and reporting. And while it probably was a good idea and it worked; it diminishes "the team concept"

Football is a game where the sum of the "team" is greater than the individual parts. Early in the 2000's we saw that happen over and over at the beginning of the first run. Every single player on an NFL roster is a VERY good football player. So many years we saw supposed no name players make significant contributions to all the double digit win seasons.

Now I understand that having a great QB makes everything a lot easier, on offense. But that won't mean **** if your defense and ST's suck ,The point being is you can win a lot of game, even a title, with a "good" QB So I say let Bill build the TEAM and let the media tout the individuals

 

[BTTA]

This thread is an amazing example of how something fairly innocuous - that a 70+ year old coach is in the twilight of his career and needs the current QB to work out for one last chance at a championship run - is turned into something controversial. There's no argument to be had here. At most, one might say, "I think he's going to coach for more years than that."

The best thing in this thread is the potential gold mine in the talent at HBCU schools. That's worthy of a thread in itself. Given that NFL teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on talent acquisition and retention, I'd think a smart one would hire a couple of scouts just for that purpose.

 

[BTTA]

3-4 years????? Neither Mac nor Belichick are lasting 3-4 more years. Not with the way this offense has been constructed. Belichick is coaching 2 or 3 more seasons tops and that's if Kraft doesn't push him out sooner.

So Belichick isn't lasting 3 more years, and is coaching 3 more years tops. Huh?

You listed most of the starting QB's in the league as "good to above average" or higher. That simply isn't possible. A bell curve is a bell curve, and "mediocre" by definition means "average" so it is immutable that most of the QB's in the league are mediocre. If every QB in the league suddenly got 50% better, the percentage of them that are mediocre wouldn't change. It would still be the majority.

 

[borg]

Hopefully our picks this year continue Belichick's brilliance of picking players in the middle of the round. Every single one of ours got their option years picked up by the Patriots, all 8 of them picked between 1-21.

A glass half empty person might argue so many options get picked up because the Patriots cupboard has been so bare.

Isaiah Wynn concurs.

 

[Triumph]

It’s laughably absurd to even mention them in the same sentence. So don’t do it.


Jones is entering his third season. We still don’t know what his ceiling is. We don’t know how much better he’ll get if at all. That isn’t comparable at all to Bledsoe whose draft was 9 years in the rear view mirror. He was at his ceiling. We knew for a fact what we had. Apples and oranges. Their situations have nothing in common other than being first round picks.


If Mac Jones is “my boy” whatever that means - then I’ll say unless your boy Zappe somehow developed an NFL level arm and NFL level accuracy over one winter then my boy is a better QB than yours. I like the better QB to start over the inferior one and he will for reasons that have nothing to do with draft position

Brady and Zappe

But Bledsoe and Jones are eerily similar. Both are reactionary passers.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Sorry you took it personal. It wasn't my intent. WAY too many people focus on the QB as if, when you have a good one, you are all set. I was just reading your post and couldn't get past your remark about it being a "death sentence" if you don't have a great QB.

Winning games requires all 45 of the game day roster. The average NFL game consists of about 150 plays. When you go back and look at the film, the game will turn on about 4-6 of those plays. It's easy to see them AFTER the fact, but that's the way it is. That's what make the game so compelling to watch. You never know when it's going to happen.

I blame the media, especially ESPN. When I first started watching NFL football the games were ALWAY more about what the team was doing rather than the individuals That's not to say individual players weren't lauded or made stars, but it was never the most important aspect. I'm guessing some marketing genius at ESPN or ABC, or CBS, suggested that by personalizing it more, like Brady vs Manning, instead of the Pats vs the Colt, they would grab more eyes to their broadcasts and reporting. And while it probably was a good idea and it worked; it diminishes "the team concept"

Football is a game where the sum of the "team" is greater than the individual parts. Early in the 2000's we saw that happen over and over at the beginning of the first run. Every single player on an NFL roster is a VERY good football player. So many years we saw supposed no name players make significant contributions to all the double digit win seasons.

Now I understand that having a great QB makes everything a lot easier, on offense. But that won't mean **** if your defense and ST's suck ,The point being is you can win a lot of game, even a title, with a "good" QB So I say let Bill build the TEAM and let the media tout the individuals

 

[PatsFanSince74]

With the advent of Rodgers, the emergence of Tua/Hill/Waddle and the ever present Josh, the need to improve this D is paramount. As much as the O needs work, to expect them to play from behind is not feasible.. then after last year's debacle the focus on ST's will make this team better.

BB has a plan it is not glamorous or flashy, but this team will have a different identity and when he goes on his own terms it will be well prepared for his successor..

Absolutely agree. BB is riding out the storm. It was inevitable that the post-GOAT era would elicit opportunism from the longsuffering "other three" in the AFCE.

Building up the D to deal with the growth of Josh (he has a lot to prove and is running out of time...never even been to the SB), the maturing of Tua (jury is definitely still out, but he's worth the Fins' bet on him) and the arrival of AAAron (a true wild card, who's more likely to cash out after leading the Jets to a one-and-done in the Wild Card round than a game in February, but it will be an interesting "ride" for a season or two...plus he collects his $60 million and avoids having to share the Canton stage with TB12 in five years).

PS: when are we all going to get through our grieving process and admit it was a case of Brady and Belichick, not a question of Brady or Belichick, which gave the Franchise all that success?
PPS: Mac deserves the shot. BB won't be fired on his account or for any FB reason. Zappe should be in the mix, but they're probably still looking for their Franchise QB...the GOAT was and remains irreplaceable.

 

[1960Pats]

I don't believe this at all.

Super Bowl history of the last 20 years tells us that you can win with mediocre or even bad QBs. Everyone brings up Trent Dilfer, but there are a lot of Nick Foles, Jack Delhomme, Jimmy Garoppolo, Jared Goff, Colin Kaepernick, Rex Grossman, Matt Hasselbeck, Brad Johnson, etc. Sure Brady and Mahomes are Super Bowl regulars. But you don't need a stellar QB to get there or even to win one.

Great QBs help you a lot. Don't get me wrong.

But they are very hard to find and there is no point in expending all your resources to find one like the rest of the teams in our division who have gone looking for a great QB over and over and over again to the detriment of their team.

That couldn't be more wrong.

I went back 15 years and looked at the 30 QB's that played in the SB. Of the 15 winners there are 11, count 'em 11, QBs that are certifiably HOF QBs. And on top of that 7 of the 15 losers are also HOF QBs, like Mahomes, PEDton, Warner, Brady and Big Ben.

That leaves only 12 QBs; Stafford, Foles, Wilson and Flacco as winners and Hurts, Burrow, Grapes, Goff, Ryan, Cam, Wilson again and Kaeperdick as losers. I don't see many bad QBs in that group.

Looking back at the last 15 years of SB QBs was like seeing a who's who of the NYFL HOF and potential HOFers.

Now, if you want to see below average or poor you need to check out some of the HCs who made it to a SB. There are some real doozies.

 

[upstater1]

That couldn't be more wrong.

I went back 15 years and looked at the 30 QB's that played in the SB. Of the 15 winners there are 11, count 'em 11, QBs that are certifiably HOF QBs. And on top of that 7 of the 15 losers are also HOF QBs, like Mahomes, PEDton, Warner, Brady and Big Ben.

That leaves only 12 QBs; Stafford, Foles, Wilson and Flacco as winners and Hurts, Burrow, Grapes, Goff, Ryan, Cam, Wilson again and Kaeperdick as losers. I don't see many bad QBs in that group.

Looking back at the last 15 years of SB QBs was like seeing a who's who of the NYFL HOF and potential HOFers.

Now, if you want to see below average or poor you need to check out some of the HCs who made it to a SB. There are some real doozies.

I literally listed guys who made the Super Bowl with their teams.

I mean, FACTS can't be wrong. I listed the guys in the Super Bowls.

Nor did I say HOF QBs don't help you get to the Super Bowl.

I didn't even say these were bad QBs.

I think you're making up things.

 

[Real fan 02]

I don't think it's anywhere as binary as that.

Mac's comps during the draft were QBs like Derek Carr and Chad Pennington.

If he tracks to that projection we're a borderline playoff team on a good year, and I think this is what Bill is telling Bob behind the scenes.

If Kraft decides BB's ways of doing things are no longer effective then he has to blow the entire thing up, since everyone in the building is trained to do things BB's way.

I have a hard time seeing that happen except if there is a total team collapse, and even then I think BB could talk Bob into a second chance.

Great, great post.. however I'd put Jackson In burrows place..
That's just me though.

 

[Ian]

I literally listed guys who made the Super Bowl with their teams.

I mean, FACTS can't be wrong. I listed the guys in the Super Bowls.

Nor did I say HOF QBs don't help you get to the Super Bowl.

I didn't even say these were bad QBs.

I think you're making up things.

I get the point he's making, but I also agree on what you're saying. Not-so-great QBs have won Super Bowls (even Brady was beaten by one, albeit, the storyline with that one remains irritating), although the majority of winners have mostly been elite names.

Again, the only problem is those guys don't grow on trees, and it's not like Belichick overlooked an elite quarterback in lieu of Mac. He was the best available at the time post-Brady and the best there has been available to them since. One would believe they'll continue drafting until they stumble upon a Jimmy Garoppolo-esque player, but the elites are just few and far between. People can get mad that there isn't one on the roster, but the reality is what it is. Lamar Jackson, who people wanted to give up two firsts for, will be out of football at the rate he's going since Josh Allen freely admitted this offseason that his own style of play isn't sustainable.

Should Belichick have ridden Brady out until the end? Absolutely, and I still feel that way. But he didn't, and I guess it's a moot point. He lasted three more seasons and it's over.

Belichick is the reason the bottom hasn't dropped out, and why they've at least won 7,10,8 games since Tom left. But they've at least put together a defense that can deal with keeping things close, even vs the best teams in the league. The only question is going to be whether or not Bill O'Brien can fix the rest and get the offense back to the point where they're at least scoring points at the same clip they did three years ago when they went over 40 three times, including 50+ twice. If they can do that, they should at least get back into the mix.

 

[Rob0729]

Brady and Zappe

But Bledsoe and Jones are eerily similar. Both are reactionary passers.

I think you just hate Jones and don't even know why. Jones is absolutely nothing like Blesoe and he is an antipatory passer. He was in college and was his rookie season. He is very good at throwing to spots where the receiver is going to be. Maybe not last year since receivers seemed to not even know which routes they were supposed to run.

Seriously, Bledsoe's strengths and Jones' strengths are almost the exact opposite. Bledsoe had a strong arm and like to hold onto the ball for a long time to let the play develop (hence why he fell off in the early 2000s when defenses got quicker). Jones makes fast decisions and gets rid of the ball quickly. Their style of play are nothing alike. Anyone with any football knowledge would say that Bledsoe and Jones are nothing alike other than they are pocket passers.