I think Samuel re-signs

[MoLewisrocks]

Amid all this supposedly the Patriots have said they don't intend to use the cap on Samuel - which makes no sense to me, especially at this stage of the game -

Where did you hear/see/read that? Reiss was on with Felger on Friday and he said he believes they will tag Asante and trade him because he is probably unsignable long term and the Pats will not be willing to tie up $19M in cap space on Brady and Samuel (not to mention $8 more on Seymour) which is what playing Asante under the tag would entail. He did say though that he assumed they would prefer to keep the tag in place for both Samuel and Graham as incentive to get a deal done. But if the Graham deal gets done the tag would make sense to get value for Samuel. (Although he thinks the tag would work for Graham better from a financial standpoint if one actually ends up playing under it.)

Although his agent won't acknowledge it, privately Samuel, the Patriots and every other team in the NFL will recognize that Samuel's 10 interceptions is in part due to the Patriots' scheme that created a zone where Samuel could take chances and go for the INT knowing the Safety had his man covered.

We saw that well illustrated in his pick against Indy where Sanders took on Samuel's man while he came forward and got the INT.

Now that's not to make light of Sameul's contribution - he's VERY valuable to the Patriots - and other teams that play a similar scheme (like the Jets) - but he's not suited to pick up 10 INTs on every team and every scheme.

Not so sure every other team in the NFL wll recognize it, but BB said as much on WEEI a two weeks ago. Credited Pees for helping Asante with technique and the scheme for opening up opportunities to make plays without the downside - while also saying he didn't want to downplay Asante's own efforts just confirming what most of us realize - it's equal parts talent and system, player effort and quality coaching.

 

[spacecrime]

I believe it IS affecting their relationship with potential free agents.

FA CB/ILB's agent: Team X is offering us 6 years, 28 mil.

Pats: We'll pay 6 years, 30 mil.

FA CB/ILB's agent: No way. You let WMG and Samuel go.

Can you picture this? I can't. I can picture the agent not caring what they didn't pay Samuel or Macginest or Vinatieri, only that his client gets paid a boatload of money.

What is affecting the Pats ability to aign FA's is their unwilllingness, with few excpetions, to pay a boatload of money for a player.

 

[AzPatsFan]

He's not going to be worth the $$. Ty Law in his prime was a much more talented corner than Asante, and we didn't pay him.

Hobbs played admirably with a cast on his wrist the whole season. We were planning on moving Wilson over to CB this season before the injury next season. Go with Hobbs-Wilson as your corners, draft a quality backup maybe, but spending the money on Asante doesn't seem like VALUE to me, as much as I love the guy. He priced himself out.

Who said we didn't? Law in his prime earned 8 or 9 million a year from the Pats. They wouldn't apy 12 though

 

[patriotspride]

They made a 31 million offer to branch
and 17 million to givens.

They found a bigger deal which we cannot afford...so they left.Pats are going to make a offer in the order of 7 millon siging bonus with a 25 million dolla contract.

But he is going to get 14 million siging bonus /36 million contract from some one.

hes gone your dreaming .time to wake up and except the truth .hes gone.

 

[patriotspride]

They are not going to change and they shouldn't change.

i agree.you cant argue with results .year in and year out they field a team that goes to the playoffs every year[except 02]and competes for a Superbowl .and we know how many they have won .they aren't perfect but i figure they know what they are doing because results don't lie.

 

[pheenix11]

Why do players fear the franchise tag so much? The franchise salaries pay pretty damn well. Is it because its only for 1 year and doesn't offer any security? Whats the difference, there are no guaranteed contracts anyways.

 

[upstater1]

They made a 31 million offer to branch
and 17 million to givens.

They found a bigger deal which we cannot afford...so they left.Pats are going to make a offer in the order of 7 millon siging bonus with a 25 million dolla contract.

But he is going to get 14 million siging bonus /36 million contract from some one.

But we could afford it. We called Branch and told him we'd give him what he was asking for if he fired his agent.

People, we really need to rewrite this Branch story on this board, because it's clear Patriots fans haven't come to grips with it.

The Patriots WERE willing (in the end) to pay Deion what he wanted. But the way this came about (because of Deion's arse of an agent) prevented the deal from ever closing.

 

[upstater1]

Why do players fear the franchise tag so much? The franchise salaries pay pretty damn well. Is it because its only for 1 year and doesn't offer any security? Whats the difference, there are no guaranteed contracts anyways.

There's a big money difference. Just do the math.

Say, 4 years for Samuel at $7 million per. A $10 million signing bonus. After the signing bonus, that averages $4.5 million a year, with $14.5 going to the player in the first year (unless they knock the salary back). Then consider the huge salary cap hit a team takes if it cuts a player in the next season (they can't cut him if he's injured--unless you're the Colts of course...). So he's guaranteed at least 2 seasons if not 3 of pay.

Essentially, by signing a contract now, the player is guaranteed $19 million dollars. Versus $8 million with the franchise tag, where he risks a debilitating injury.

With the franchise tag, the only upside for the player--if he stays healthy--is an extra million or so above the gross average he would have earned in that first year if he had a contract. In other words, that's too much risk.

 

[upstater1]

Not so sure every other team in the NFL wll recognize it, but BB said as much on WEEI a two weeks ago. Credited Pees for helping Asante with technique and the scheme for opening up opportunities to make plays without the downside - while also saying he didn't want to downplay Asante's own efforts just confirming what most of us realize - it's equal parts talent and system, player effort and quality coaching.

There is a value-added however to the fact that Asante has already been trained. So, you can compare Asante to other CBs like him who could perform as well as Asante, but you have to pay him somewhat more for the mere fact that he's been trained in the Patriot's system. This is how most businesses operate. Heck, in my field, if you get an offer from a competitor, the company will match and beat it because they realize there will be a huge expense in, one, searching for a new prospect to fulfill that job, and two, training and integrating the new worker. For some odd reason, we tend to lose people around December every year, and we find ourselves travelling to some conference right after Christmas, staying in a hotel, and interviewing lots of candidates to fill the slot of the person we lost. That travel and hotel expense, as well as subsequent fly-ins for secondary interviews, can cost almost as much as a full year's salary for an employee.

That's why there should be an extra bump for your own guys that have already been trained. Say you believe a young FA CB from another club can be signed for $5 million. How long will it take you to integrate the new player? Is the savings worth it? If it were me, I would apply my business's model and average the cost of training into Asante's salary. I'd take one year's salary and divide it by the length of the contract ($6.5/4=$1.6) and then I'd tack that on to the salary I'm willing to offer Asante's replacement ($5). So I have a max now of what I'm willing to give Asante. If he wants a lot more, then its better for me, cost-wise, to bring someone else in who I can train to reach Asante's level.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

I thought Samuel would re-sign too -- until his agent started saying things in the media that he's been saying.

 

[DarrylS]

Said before and will say it again, the Pats will probably not wind up with Samuel next year.. there is a lot of money available across the league, and some team will look at him as a cure all for their defense. He will get big bucks and languish on a mediocre team. What I see is the Pats continuing to draft CB's( Hobbs for example) and developing them.. keeping them for their rookie contracts and then they move on, unless you get the guy who wants to continue to be part of this franchise.

Read a lot about how our relationships with free agents has soured, this is a figment of the imaginative, ill informed and bored media.. most players know what Johnson is doing and how he is being manipulated by the press. Most players know BB and his staff, and how well they develop and prepare players, they also know that the Pats are a first class organization.. bottom line it is about the money.. the playing field is relatively level. The Pats will make changes to their lineup, and am willing to bet unless that unless Samuel comes in competitively he is gone. What I see is to continue to develop older CB's for 2 year or so contracts, then drafting new ones who fit their style.

 

[vyrago]

It doesn't look like Asante's pretending that the last year of his contract doesn't exist, either.

Bingo! That is a huge difference in their situations. Branch violated his contract whereas Samuel honored his and played great football in his contract year. Whether he gets paid by the Pats or not, he is headed for free agency the right way.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I can't see the Patriots NOT Franchising Samuel. It just makes sense. It gives them leverage in both contract and/or trade negotiations. I am not that optimistic that Samuel will sign a long term deal with the Pats. For everyone who says that the Pats do not pay there own players, take a look at the Serymour contract! Signing Seymour last off-season was such a smart play for the Pats. Imagine Seymour on the open market this year, with every team in the NFL (Except the Colts) having all that cap room. The Pats saw this coming and signed Seymour and freed up the franchise tag for Samuel. I do not think that they would franchsie Graham, I like him and he is a great blocker, but the Pats have clearly planned (in last years draft) to replace Graham, if they have to. The reason we lost to the Colts this year was an aging LB corp and the loss to injury of our top three safeties. SO I see Samuel playing under the franchise tag, and then we will re-visit this argument again next off-season.

 

[DaBruinz]

He's not going to be worth the $$. Ty Law in his prime was a much more talented corner than Asante, and we didn't pay him.

Hobbs played admirably with a cast on his wrist the whole season. We were planning on moving Wilson over to CB this season before the injury next season. Go with Hobbs-Wilson as your corners, draft a quality backup maybe, but spending the money on Asante doesn't seem like VALUE to me, as much as I love the guy. He priced himself out.

Well, that's not true. The Pats, under Belichick, kept paying Law under the contract he signed with Bobby Grier. It was only when Ty's contract was scheduled to pay him in excess of 10 million a year that the Pats balked. But the Pats DID attempt to keep Law by renegotiating his contract and they offered him a 4yr/$26 million contract. When that happened, he was 30. But, also consider that the salary cap was 25 million less than it is now. So, just by inflation, Samuel could be worth a deal that averages 6.6-7 million a year.

Personally, I'd make Samuel a 6yr/40 million offer with 8-10 million in signing bonus.

 

[Sporin]

Because of all of the negative publicity the team got , last season, with the Branch situation, I think the Pats will make a very honest effort to settle the Samuel situation quickly.

Negative publicity like that can only do harm if you are trying to get decent free agents signed.

I agree. I also think (and expect the Pats think) that Samuel, unlike Branch, is worth the money he's asking (or reasonably close to it).

I think the Pats have developed a tough rep with AGENTS more so then players. I expect that many AGENTS will try and keep their FA clients away from the Pats because the Pats have a rep (deservedly) of not paying big contracts.

Good, bad or indifferent, that's my personal perception.

 

[fgssand]

I agree. I also think (and expect the Pats think) that Samuel, unlike Branch, is worth the money he's asking (or reasonably close to it).

I think the Pats have developed a tough rep with AGENTS more so then players. I expect that many AGENTS will try and keep their FA clients away from the Pats because the Pats have a rep (deservedly) of not paying big contracts.

Good, bad or indifferent, that's my personal perception.

There are about 27,000,000 reasons why agents will be breaking down the doors of the New England patriots.

I do believe we resign Asante & Graham - as long as the numbers don't get absolutely crazy.

 

[cstjohn17]

I agree. I also think (and expect the Pats think) that Samuel, unlike Branch, is worth the money he's asking (or reasonably close to it).

I think the Pats have developed a tough rep with AGENTS more so then players. I expect that many AGENTS will try and keep their FA clients away from the Pats because the Pats have a rep (deservedly) of not paying big contracts.

Good, bad or indifferent, that's my personal perception.

Signing him because he is worth it is one thing... signing him because of backlash over the Branch situation is another... The Patriots negotiation with any FA will not be predicated on any PR move, they don't care about PR, they care about value and constructing a roster.

The Pats do have a perceived reputation for being cheap, whether it is deserved or not is irrelevant. The perception exists, but the bottom line is that no agent is going to scratch NE off the list of teams because of their reputation, they will talk to NE and if the Patriots offer matches their clients requirements (#1-Money, #253 -opportunity) then a deal will get done, if not then they go elsewhere.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

There is a value-added however to the fact that Asante has already been trained. So, you can compare Asante to other CBs like him who could perform as well as Asante, but you have to pay him somewhat more for the mere fact that he's been trained in the Patriot's system. This is how most businesses operate. Heck, in my field, if you get an offer from a competitor, the company will match and beat it because they realize there will be a huge expense in, one, searching for a new prospect to fulfill that job, and two, training and integrating the new worker. For some odd reason, we tend to lose people around December every year, and we find ourselves travelling to some conference right after Christmas, staying in a hotel, and interviewing lots of candidates to fill the slot of the person we lost. That travel and hotel expense, as well as subsequent fly-ins for secondary interviews, can cost almost as much as a full year's salary for an employee.

That's why there should be an extra bump for your own guys that have already been trained. Say you believe a young FA CB from another club can be signed for $5 million. How long will it take you to integrate the new player? Is the savings worth it? If it were me, I would apply my business's model and average the cost of training into Asante's salary. I'd take one year's salary and divide it by the length of the contract ($6.5/4=$1.6) and then I'd tack that on to the salary I'm willing to offer Asante's replacement ($5). So I have a max now of what I'm willing to give Asante. If he wants a lot more, then its better for me, cost-wise, to bring someone else in who I can train to reach Asante's level.

That's all well and good but at the end of the day BB isn't going to pay that premium on top of an overpay. I think he likes Asante and would be happy to retain him. I just don't get the sense he perceives him as a shut down corner in the Ty Law (in his prime) Champ Bailey mold, nor does he believe those are necessarily viable players to commit substantial cap space to in the Polian fueled era of DPI emphasis. He believes a good CB who does his job well as coached can operate successfully in a secondary fronted by a top tier DL and he seems inclined to spend his money and first round draft picks there. He also operates a system that runs through his LB's and Safeties and those posiitons are becoming more expensive and difficult to fill. You can't have top 5 or even top 10 guys at every position, so you pick your poison and CB isn't Bill's. He's won Superbowls with youngsters and UDFA's and JAGS manning his corners behind a top teir front 7 and along side a top flight SS.

 

[upstater1]

That's all well and good but at the end of the day BB isn't going to pay that premium on top of an overpay. I think he likes Asante and would be happy to retain him. I just don't get the sense he perceives him as a shut down corner in the Ty Law (in his prime) Champ Bailey mold, nor does he believe those are necessarily viable players to commit substantial cap space to in the Polian fueled era of DPI emphasis. He believes a good CB who does his job well as coached can operate successfully in a secondary fronted by a top tier DL and he seems inclined to spend his money and first round draft picks there. He also operates a system that runs through his LB's and Safeties and those posiitons are becoming more expensive and difficult to fill. You can't have top 5 or even top 10 guys at every position, so you pick your poison and CB isn't Bill's. He's won Superbowls with youngsters and UDFA's and JAGS manning his corners behind a top teir front 7 and along side a top flight SS.

Yeah, but he also spent a top draft choice on Duane Starks.

He drafted Brock Williams and a few others.

He's not God.

A bird in the hand, you know what I'm saying?

 

[DaBruinz]

Yeah, but he also spent a top draft choice on Duane Starks.

He drafted Brock Williams and a few others.

He's not God.

A bird in the hand, you know what I'm saying?

BB spent a top draft pick on Starks? Really? Sure about that?

The Pats traded a 3rd round to the Cardinals and swapped 5th rounders. I wouldn't call a 3rd round pick a TOP PICK by any stretch of the imagination. Not considering that it was the end of the 3rd round.

You're right, BB has drafted a few duds, but so does every team.