How good are these young CB’s?

[HailHydra]

It's a bit concerning that all the hype goes to Jackson and Crossen when Dawson is supposed to be significantly more talented. For me, I'm a bit concerned since Dawson was drafted solely to be a slot CB, yet, it seems that he's lost out on that role. Grabbing a WR there (Washington, Chark, Gallup) instead looks like it could have eased quite a bit of our concerns. I have no idea what Belichick feels about all the players, but on our side, it just looks a bit odd.

 

[ralmat55]

It doesn't matter where you get the players as long as you get them.

Draft
FA
Trade
UDFA


Doesn't matter. BB uses every means and is usually quite successful.

It does matter. If you fill a need through the draft, you fill that need for 4 or 5 seasons at a minimal cost. Filling it via FA or trade costs more and usually addresses the need for a season or two.

Over the years, one narrative is the Patriots dynasty stands out because it occurred in the free agency era. You lose players through free agency, but it also gives you an avenue to acquire players that previous dynasties didn’t have.

There’s usually no shortage of good players who for one reason or another are looking to rebuild their careers. Over time, the Patriots have become a primo location for those players to come. That flow of talent has overcome the draft mistakes.

Free agency has made it harder to build a dynasty but made it easier to sustain one once built. It’s still better to not blow so many 2nd rounders however.

 

[maineman209]

It's a bit concerning that all the hype goes to Jackson and Crossen when Dawson is supposed to be significantly more talented. For me, I'm a bit concerned since Dawson was drafted solely to be a slot CB, yet, it seems that he's lost out on that role. Grabbing a WR there (Washington, Chark, Gallup) instead looks like it could have eased quite a bit of our concerns. I have no idea what Belichick feels about all the players, but on our side, it just looks a bit odd.

Dawson was dinged up for most of Camp (and still is, apparently), so he didn't get as many opportunities to show his stuff as the far more visible Jackson and Crossen did. So, for now, a healthy and experienced JJ (who's actually very good, anyway) is "ahead" of Dawson. That doesn't seem a bit odd or concerning to me.

Aside from QBs and ST specialists, I don't think the Pats acquire players or college prospects to be "solely" any one thing or to play any one role exclusively very often. As a rookie college prospect, Dawson's background/strongest points may be suited to a slot-type role primarily. But that's just now, at the very start of his NFL career, before he's had a lot of developmental coaching. I seriously doubt that the Pats have any intention, or ever had any intention, of leaving it at that.

"Dawson is supposed to be significantly more talented." Why? Because he was drafted in the 2nd round? Because guys like Kiper said so? Nah.

BB and Caserio rate prospects based solely on what they think those prospects may be able to do for the team, eventually. Then they take the guys with high ratings when the need to based on how much interest there is in them from other teams. BB/Caserio may have had very similar ratings on both Dawson and Jackson, but they took Dawson in the 2nd because he was a very popular prospect among the 31 other teams, whereas there wasn't much general interest in Jackson.

 

[maineman209]

Downing should count as two misses considering his draft position and how badly he performed!

LOL! Did you even watch the guy play as a rookie during pre-season and Week-1?

 

[maineman209]

2016- 2nd rd -Cyrus- Miss
2013-3rd rd- Logan Ryan- Hit
2011- 2nd rd - IR Dowling- Miss
2010- 1st rd - Devin Mc- Miss as a CB, hit as a FS

Sort of agree, but I'd put it more like ...

2016- 2nd rd -Cyrus
- Miss due to tearing his ACL before he could make any "2nd-year leap"

2013-3rd rd- Logan Ryan- Hit

2011- 2nd rd - IR Dowling
- Miss due to injury (he had been injury-prone, so this was a high-risk/high-reward type pick)

2010- 1st rd - Devin Mc
- Hit as a Zone corner; Miss as a press-man CB; hit as a FS (essentially a zone role)

 

[PScottman]

Keeping both a 7th round pick and an UDFA feels especially unusual.

The league is 3-WR centric. The new balance point (able to both limit the run and pass defend simultaneously) hasn't been really "found" consistently by anyone yet on how to defend that from a personnel grouping perspective.

Sure there's pockets of goodness where maybe you've got a couple guys on last couple years of rookie deals and a high paid vet star that makes it work for a year, but that's not schematic as much as cap management, good drafting, or even some luck.

The answer is some kind of mix of DBs/LB hybrids, but what mix is still really being explored. The Pats kind of made us suffer through the Richards test of the same. Add in the versatility of DBs in the special teams game and you've got two good reasons why they would keep people in addition to - they just think they're the better players.

 

[maineman209]

Crossen has speed, but needs help on everything else.

Crossen has elite athleticism beyond speed. He's also already and excellent tackler and he appears to be very quick to correctly diagnose plays and to provide excellent run support. His floor is probably premier special-teamer. With Slater on the wrong side of 30 and Ebner turning 30 later this season, that alone provides significant team value.

I agree, though, that he needs a lot of instruction on coverage technique. OTOH, even there, he appeared to improve a bit over the course of Camp. If he develops into another JJ, he'll have been well worth keeping.

I'm just hoping that he continues to stick through the next few days of roster churn.

 

[patsinthesnow]

2018 - Ryan Lewis claimed by Bills. TBD.

2017 - Kenny Moore claimed by Colts. Starting nickel CB & some Colts writers say he’s their best corner.

2017 - Pats trade Justin Coleman for a 7th due to roster limitations. Now Seattle’s starting nickel CB & was their best corner last season.

2016 - Pats cut Darryl Roberts. Jets sign him & he becomes a serviceable CB3/CB4.

2016 - Jonathan Jones makes 53 man roster. Develops into an elite gunner as well as a slot CB with upside to be a breakout player for 2018.

2016 - Cre’Von Leblanc claimed by Bears. Starting slot CB rookie year; depth after & just released.

2015 - Patriots claim Justin Coleman from Minnesota. He goes on to be a pretty good slot CB his rookie year & then hits bumps in year 2. Career revived in Seattle.

2014 - Malcolm Butler. Nuff said.

—————————————————————

Are these players world beaters? No. But many are pretty good CB3s with upside to be serviceable CB2s. The sample size is getting big enough to say the Pats have developed a pretty nice advantage over the rest of the league whether its attributed to scouting or coaching.

At this point with Gilmore signed longterm, the team should just keep mining UDFAs at CB & save the draft capital for other positions. It’s not even a knock on Dawson as a player but Jackson/Crossen look like promising prospects.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Crossen has elite athleticism beyond speed. He's also already and excellent tackler and he appears to be very quick to correctly diagnose plays and to provide excellent run support. His floor is probably premier special-teamer. With Slater on the wrong side of 30 and Ebner turning 30 later this season, that alone provides significant team value.

I agree, though, that he needs a lot of instruction on coverage technique. OTOH, even there, he appeared to improve a bit over the course of Camp. If he develops into another JJ, he'll have been well worth keeping.

I'm just hoping that he continues to stick through the next few days of roster churn.

You said it. You can't teach athleticism, talent, work ethic and brains. He has those qualities. Let's hope he keeps improving.

 

[PScottman]

With Slater on the wrong side of 30 and Ebner turning 30 later this season, that alone provides significant team value.

Excellent catch. I would think this also contributes to our "old roster" - our special team guys are older too which helps drive up the number.

 

[maineman209]

Keeping both a 7th round pick and an UDFA feels especially unusual.

Circumstances are different every year. The players and developmental prospects that are available to select for the 53-man from the 90-man are different every year. So, I'm not entirely sure that there is any "usual".

Anyway, it seems to me that Jackson and Crossen were kept for different reasons - Jackson because he has some relatively well-developed coverage chops; Crossen because his athleticism, instincts, and tackling ability/skills appear to make him an excellent special-teamer immediately.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Circumstances are different every year. The players and developmental prospects that are available to select for the 53-man from the 90-man are different every year. So, I'm not entirely sure that there is any "usual".

Anyway, it seems to me that Jackson and Crossen were kept for different reasons - Jackson because he has some relatively well-developed coverage chops; Crossen because his athleticism, instincts, and tackling ability/skills appear to make him an excellent special-teamer immediately.

I was reading some moron Boston writer who said Jackson was slow. 4.46 is not slow.

 

[Oswlek]

It's a bit concerning that all the hype goes to Jackson and Crossen when Dawson is supposed to be significantly more talented. For me, I'm a bit concerned since Dawson was drafted solely to be a slot CB, yet, it seems that he's lost out on that role. Grabbing a WR there (Washington, Chark, Gallup) instead looks like it could have eased quite a bit of our concerns. I have no idea what Belichick feels about all the players, but on our side, it just looks a bit odd.

Why would we be concerned about an injured player falling behind on the hype train? And how do we know how well he is doing when he hasn't played or practiced in a month?

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

2018 - Ryan Lewis claimed by Bills. TBD.

2017 - Kenny Moore claimed by Colts. Starting nickel CB & some Colts writers say he’s their best corner.

2017 - Pats trade Justin Coleman for a 7th due to roster limitations. Now Seattle’s starting nickel CB & was their best corner last season.

2016 - Pats cut Darryl Roberts. Jets sign him & he becomes a serviceable CB3/CB4.

2016 - Jonathan Jones makes 53 man roster. Develops into an elite gunner as well as a slot CB with upside to be a breakout player for 2018.

2016 - Cre’Von Leblanc claimed by Bears. Starting slot CB rookie year; depth after & just released.

2015 - Patriots claim Justin Coleman from Minnesota. He goes on to be a pretty good slot CB his rookie year & then hits bumps in year 2. Career revived in Seattle.

2014 - Malcolm Butler. Nuff said.

—————————————————————

Are these players world beaters? No. But many are pretty good CB3s with upside to be serviceable CB2s. The sample size is getting big enough to say the Pats have developed a pretty nice advantage over the rest of the league whether its attributed to scouting or coaching.

At this point with Gilmore signed longterm, the team should just keep mining UDFAs at CB & save the draft capital for other positions. It’s not even a knock on Dawson as a player but Jackson/Crossen look like promising prospects.

Forgot the corner the Steelers poached from us.
But I completely agree.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Forgot the corner the Steelers poached from us.
But I completely agree.

Yeah Hilton has been pretty good for them

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

Yeah Hilton has been pretty good for them

Thats right Mike Hilton.

 

[maineman209]

I was reading some moron Boston writer who said Jackson was slow. 4.46 is not slow.

Jackson's pre-draft measurables are pretty much identical to Dawson's. Maybe slightly better.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Thats right Mike Hilton.

Only reason I remember is a buddy on mine said he had a big game vs BAL when at the time our pass D was being shredded.

 

[mgteich]

First of all, I'm considering JMac a safety now, with the ability to fill in at boundary CB. I expect him to play (when he does) mostly as an extra deep safety, rather than up close to the line. I think Harmon, then, returns to doing more up-man assignments, like he did his first couple seasons.

I think JJ proved himself capable of handling slot duties and even RCB very well last season, and then he appeared to pick up right where he left off when he finally began practicing this Camp. Until someone else steps up, JJ is the 3rd starting corner.

I think that Jackson might be very good with a little more development, and that could happen quickly.

Crossen needs some skill-training to go with his natural athleticism and instincts. I think he'll follow JJ's path and be an elite special teamer this season who becomes a "real CB" in 2019.

Dawson - I frankly have no clue.

Anyway, I see it as 4 safeties and 5 CB + a special-teamer. It doesn't seem like that big a "surplus" to me, partly due to Rowe's history of being unavailable due to injury. Bottom line ... I think that DB is well-covered for 2018 and 2019 now.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Jackson's pre-draft measurables are pretty much identical to Dawson's. Maybe slightly better.

Yep.

Plus I'm a believer in the difference in "track fast" and "football fast"

It's early but Jackson seems football fast to me.

Bentley is football fast.