How confident are you on our own Roster?

[Pape]

Layden Robinson, a guard for the New England Patriots, was named to ESPN's All-Rookie Second-Team for the 2024 season.

As I said Pape, Patriot fans wouldn’t recognize it, but it’s still a fact. And my post isn’t directed at you, but in Patriot fans in general. The ones who are guilty of it know who they are.

The vast majority of players taken after the first round don’t contribute significantly their rookie season. And not even 30% end up becoming significant contributors. So Patriot fans can scream all they want about how they are all busts, but the reality is that it takes at least 2-3 seasons to find out who can play and who can’t. And it’s up to the coaching staffs to turn as many of them as possible into good NFL players. As an example of this just look at Kayshon Boutte ( also known as KayShon Butthole per Patsfan2) who the vast majority of Patriot fans wanted gone his rookie season, and was labeled a “ bust,” but who then turned into a decent contributor this season ( 43-589-3) and who is only 22 years old. No one wants to see him cut now.

People need to have some patience and let things develop and play out, instead of the knee jerk thumbs up or thumbs down we keep seeing. Let the kids develop for a couple of seasons and see who rises and who can’t cut it. IMO that’s not an unreasonable way to look at it.

Huck its all good, i didn't take it personally... i would just say try to be more circumspect when touting "honors"... and yes, i'm going to be pedantic here - one writers list is not a consensus All-anything team...

when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter if a player is a rookie or a veteran... if they play a substantial portion of the snap counts, then criticism - or praise - is going to come their way... its the nature of the beast... Its impossible to sit back and say nothing for two or three seasons while rookies "grow into their role"...

If we did that, then nothing would have changed between 2024 and 2025 because we'd all be collectively waiting to "see what happens"... Understand your point about the development of youngers guys... at the same time, if they are developmental prospects and are playing significant minutes, its an indicator that something is wrong... the roster, roster construction, injuries etc... should we have waited on Nick Leverette to figure stuff out instead of calling out his poor play? eh... I don't think so...

While I truly believe guys in the media (not all, but more than a few - just look at the number of Bots crawling around here) look at sites like PatsFans, Pats Pulpit, twitter, facebook, etc to get the pulse of the fanbase, what we say really has little to no impact on anything... Maybe if we are lucky a post or two might rattle a cage or two, thats a good thing... perhaps bringing what we see as short comings to the attention of those who might not see it or those who know it and can do something about it...

 

[Bill Lee]

OFFENSE (3)
In free agency, we need to sign a starting LT, RT and to acquire a receiver. I also expect a developmental OT in the 3rd.

DEFENSE (4)
We need DT, EDGE another front 7 defender and a DB. One of these will be our first draft pick.

These are pretty much the hardest things to find in FA.

Teams that have good players at LT, WR1, EDGE and DB rarely let them get to FA.

When they do, they command top dollars and have lots of suitors with better situations than ours.

I think this is way too much to expect for one off-season.

 

[Bill Lee]

With the coaching staff all around upgraded. The players that do make the roster from last season will be given top notch coaching and put in spots to succeed unlike Last season. However adding a Cooper kupp drastically helps Drake and the overall offense as a whole. Personally we've already been upgraded simply by having an offensive wizard in McDaniels.. Gibson will be more efficient and effective pop will be correctly utilizing. Everyone stands to be better on top of the players we add in the draft and FA.

I too am optimistic about the coaching staff. We're in the best place we've been since Josh left and BB lost his mind.

 

[Bill Lee]

one or two key additions combined with the arrival of actual, real honest to god coaches will help this team... and who knows, maybe some of the first year issues can be resolved and we get a bit more from the former rookies...

Still, it seems to me you aren't exuding confidence. I think the need is similar to what @mgteich just posted, so more like six pieces away along with needing depth, which is a lot to ask for in one off season.

 

[Bill Lee]

This is one really bizarre question to ask at this time. The team just came off of a 4 win season* with a new QB many on this board thought was going to be the difference - it wasn't. Now posters blame the roster and Coach when this has been a theme for years now. FA hasn't started, so the Pats roster remains arguably the worst in the league.

The Pats not only need to address the OL for Maye, but also for Stevenson who they recently paid. It was absolutely pointless to pay him, only to give a poor effort in FA and whiff in the draft. They need front 7 players next, followed by WR's. LB and outside CB are high priorities as well, but you can't address every need unless you're playing Madden.

Locks are Maye, Gonzalez and the players they recently paid. Everyone else are replaceable.

I don't think the premise is plausible. As you point out, anyone looking at our OL could tell that no QB could turn this squad into a winner. Then add in the lack of talent and leadership from the coaches and it's just not plasible.

As for Maye, pretty much everyone paying attention knew Brissette was going to get a good run at starter, so it always was going to be at best a transition season.

 

[Pape]

Still, it seems to me you aren't exuding confidence. I think the need is similar to what @mgteich just posted, so more like six pieces away along with needing depth, which is a lot to ask for in one off season.

you would be right. I am not exuding confidence.

Can we get a half dozen key additions? That would be a tough sell for ownership i think, based on their reticence to spend. Two to three would be more realistic

I am wishfully hopeful though, so there's that.

 

[Bill Lee]

you would be right. I am not exuding confidence.

Can we get a half dozen key additions? That would be a tough sell for ownership i think, based on their reticence to spend. Two to three would be more realistic

I am wishfully hopeful though, so there's that.

My mental model for next season is BB's first year here. The team played bad on the field, but BB had shaken everything up, had brought in his coaching and front end staff, and had begun to add pieces. In the second off season he added more pieces and we were ready to roll.

Will something like this this happen again? I kinda doubt it. BB had a huge number of players he was fond of from his NYG/NYJ days with Parcells, and many were happy to come here and play for a team that was in bad shape but had a lot of upside. From what I can tell, Vrabel is well respected but I just don't see this huge number of middle class veteran players ready/willing/able to come play for him here. I also have a lot of respect for Vrabel and he's a huge upgrade from Mayo, but BB is the GOAT of coaches.

I feel like I'm optimistic for a better future than what we've had in the recent past, but I also need to see a strong off-season or two before I think of us as a contender.

 

[Nikolai]

Our roster will need some serious retooling to be truly competitive. It's within our grasp, given our draft capital and cap space, but we need a couple seasons of hitting in both areas to be a true contender again.

Side note - the topic title seems to ask how we ourselves would feel on this roster. Don't get me wrong, I've still got a bit of strength and speed at my age, but I'd still be slow and probably not skilled enough to make the team...at least, I hope not.

 

[Real fan 02]

Still, it seems to me you aren't exuding confidence. I think the need is similar to what @mgteich just posted, so more like six pieces away along with needing depth, which is a lot to ask for in one off season.

I don't think it's out the realm of possibility . We have to remember we will have 90 players to enter camp with. In 01 we added 23 Free agents.

 

[Real fan 02]

My mental model for next season is BB's first year here. The team played bad on the field, but BB had shaken everything up, had brought in his coaching and front end staff, and had begun to add pieces. In the second off season he added more pieces and we were ready to roll.

Will something like this this happen again? I kinda doubt it. BB had a huge number of players he was fond of from his NYG/NYJ days with Parcells, and many were happy to come here and play for a team that was in bad shape but had a lot of upside. From what I can tell, Vrabel is well respected but I just don't see this huge number of middle class veteran players ready/willing/able to come play for him here. I also have a lot of respect for Vrabel and he's a huge upgrade from Mayo, but BB is the GOAT of coaches.

I feel like I'm optimistic for a better future than what we've had in the recent past, but I also need to see a strong off-season or two before I think of us as a contender.

I look at the time BB came back to NE as HC. There are some eerily similar traits to Vrabel. Obviously Vrabel being a former player and patriots HOF inductee.

Bill brought in pioli, Weis and crennel. Bill had final say on the roster as does Vrabel. Both came to the team after it had coaches that were considered to be " easygoing on the players. Bill inherited a roster with at least 10 all pro caliber players.

 

[archstanton543]

I look at the time BB came back to NE as HC. There are some eerily similar traits to Vrabel. Obviously Vrabel being a former player and patriots HOF inductee.

Bill brought in pioli, Weis and crennel. Bill had final say on the roster as does Vrabel. Both came to the team after it had coaches that were considered to be " easygoing on the players. Bill inherited a roster with at least 10 all pro caliber players.

Vrabel inherited a roster with no all pro caliber players.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Bill inherited a roster with at least 10 all pro caliber players.

10 may be a stretch. At the time Bill was hired I still would’ve considered only Bledsoe and Glenn on offense. On defense, I’d put McGinest, Law, Milloy and Ted Johnson.

Vinatieri was a mediocre kicker who struggled badly in 1999 losing two games for them. Bruschi just had his first year as a starter after the departure of Todd Collins.

Vrabel inherited a roster with no all pro caliber players.

Gonzalez made 2nd team All Pro. Barmore was looking like he was on his way, but now he’s got an uphill battle ahead of him. Aside from that, the roster is arguably the worst in the league.

The 1999 roster the pieces mostly on defense, but the rest of the roster was deteriorating.

 

[Bill Lee]

We have to remember we will have 90 players to enter camp with. In 01 we added 23 Free agents.

A lot of it depends on how much those FAs feel their careers are best served coming here versus going somewhere else.

Everyone knows we're not competitive as things stand right now, and a lot has to happen to change that.

It very well can, but there are other teams out there who are already playoff-caliber teams, or at least .500 teams.

While I feel Vrabel is respected, I think BB had more respect among the FAs back then than Vrabel now does.

Remember, BB had the HC of the NYJ title before he jumped here, while Vrabel was fired a year ago after a few meh seasons.

And, as just pointed out, BB started with a decent core on defense at least, while we're a few pieces short of a solid core.

I think we won't make as much progress as some here are projecting, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Real fan 02]

10 may be a stretch. At the time Bill was hired I still would’ve considered only Bledsoe and Glenn on offense. On defense, I’d put McGinest, Law, Milloy and Ted Johnson.

Vinatieri was a mediocre kicker who struggled badly in 1999 losing two games for them. Bruschi just had his first year as a starter after the departure of Todd Collins.


Gonzalez made 2nd team All Pro. Barmore was looking like he was on his way, but now he’s got an uphill battle ahead of him. Aside from that, the roster is arguably the worst in the league.

The 1999 roster the pieces mostly on defense, but the rest of the roster was deteriorating.

I should have said pro bowl level not all pro. Troy Brown, ty law, Willie, teddy B, teddy J, Drew.. Malloy, Glenn, woody. There's 9 right there off top. Point I was making is that Bill had some foundational pieces and some guys that had already created the locker room environment to help carry bills messages. Also alot of the players on defense had already knew Bill and had a relationship with him from his time prior.

 

[State]

That’s why the team should do what the Ravens did in 2008. Eric DeCosta, from Taunton and a top tier GM, traded back from pick 8 to 26 with Jacksonville. He got their two thirds and a fourth, (26, 75, 89, 125). Then he moved back up to #18 for QB Joe Flacco, giving up their first, (second) third, and sixth round, 26, 89, and 173.

Flacco would go on to win rookie of the year.

The Patriots with their talent deficiencies EVERYWHERE need to try to pull that off. Still get a franchise LT in someone like Ohio State’s Josh Simmons around pick 20. But have a couple extra mid round picks.

 

[hornetfb85]

Maye and Gonzo are the only actual core pieces. Barmore too if he’s healthy.

White, Pop Douglas, Boutte are all rookie contract guys who can clearly play but aren’t good enough to actually be core pieces. Strange is in this group too if he returns to health and form.

Henry, Peppers. Bentley, Onwenu, Dugger, Godchaux, DAndrews (if healthy and back to form), Bourne (if healthy and back to form), Stevenson, Gibson are all fine second and third contract player to fill out the depth chart.

Polk, Baker, Wallace, Robinson, Sow, JAndrews Mapu are, right now, all failed prospects not worth playing time but probably not guys to give up on yet.

They need to start drafting guys from the first group (core pieces). They need to coach some of the failed prospects up to that second tier group. And they need to spend in free agency to litter the roster with the solid vets tier.

Mapu might not have been worth the draft pick he was take , but today he’s a failed prospect not worth playing time is a pretty harsh take. Played well towards the end of the year and deserves a shot. I’m not ready to give up on Wallace either since I’m going to assume the new staff is not gonna be absolute morons and try to force a lifetime RT at LT. Robinson could possibly be solid, but I’m with you on the rest. Hopefully Polk can find something…maybe that s*** that gene hackman threw on Clifford Franklins hands in the replacements.

 

[Real fan 02]

A lot of it depends on how much those FAs feel their careers are best served coming here versus going somewhere else.

Everyone knows we're not competitive as things stand right now, and a lot has to happen to change that.

It very well can, but there are other teams out there who are already playoff-caliber teams, or at least .500 teams.

While I feel Vrabel is respected, I think BB had more respect among the FAs back then than Vrabel now does.

Remember, BB had the HC of the NYJ title before he jumped here, while Vrabel was fired a year ago after a few meh seasons.

And, as just pointed out, BB started with a decent core on defense at least, while we're a few pieces short of a solid core.

I think we won't make as much progress as some here are projecting, but I hope I'm wrong.

Yes, that's true. But the early 200ps NFL in contrast to now I totally different. Players recruit each other, social media is so much of a factor for these guys. Everyone has a podcast it seems. Point I'm making is the players who are passionate about ball and want to be coaches hard to grow thier career will come here under Vrabel. Outside of Vrabel the biggest draw is Drake. From what I've seen the guys at the pro bowl were over the moon complimentary about Drake. Also what Vrabel has had is success Vrabel developed Harold Landry and Kevin byard into all pro players and took Ryan tannehill to an AFCCG and had the chief on the ropes. Tennessee like us wasn't overly loaded with talent. Everyone here under contract and potential FAs to come will all benefit under Vrabel.

 

[Wozzy]

LT – STARTING LT
RT – STARTING RT
DT – STARTING DT
FAST WR – STARTING WR
BIG CB – STARTING CB
TE – BLOCKING TE
RB – DEPTH
DE – DEPTH
SLB – DEPTH

They have a lot of needs... spread the money around but start with the lines.

 

[DarrylS]

Agree but the amount of playing time everyone after Maye, Gonzo and Bar should be scrutinized.

Dugger needs to be coached and used properly in the scheme.

Duggar also needs to be healthy, believe he was fighting an ankle issue which hampered his play. Initially diagnosed as a mild sprain, and he later was informed he had developed a bone bruise.
I suspect he will recover from this an revert to his prior self..

 

[jdlboot14]

We need to upgrade everywhere except QB (but also backup QB - a vet that can be a study & workout role model for Maye)
And that includes an absolute draft hit AND a solid vet in FA on several position groups.

OL - #1 round LT + Vet RT and G/C
WR - #2 round X + Vet X/Z
RB - #5-7 round RB (3rd down)
TE - #3 round TE + Vet (re-sign Hooper or other)
DL - #3 round EDGE + Vet DT & DE
LB - #4 round MLB + Vet OLB
S - #7 round FS + Vet FS
CB - #5 round CB + Vet CB