Honest Assessment of AFC East

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Oh, Boy! It keeps getting better!:singing:

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

If we can keep it real here for just a brief moment:

Miami fans have flooded this website to demand that we respect their team, and almost every Pats fan has said 'yeah, they are improved, Miami is a better team, no doubt about it!'

Problem is, that's not enough. The trolls keep coming in here and demanding that we roll over and give up all hope. When is respect not enough?

We get it, trolls, Miami will be better next year and will earn some respect on the field. But you keep making the same generic arguements over and over and demanded that we give you more and more respect. I don't think you guys are going to be happy until we flat out concede the division to you here in cyberspace, and admit that you really ought to win the next three superbowls. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN AT THIS WEBSITE!

Maybe at, oh, a Miami website? Maybe try your luck there?

 

[Coast2CoastPatsFan]

It's as valid as resting on your laurels

There IS a difference between "resting on your laurels" and wanting credit for improvements. Resting on your laurels is based on past performance and accomplishments. Wanting credit for improvements is based on something that mostly exists on what is written on paper. The only way of really knowing whether or not said changes are actual improvements is to see what happens on the field. Pats fans have justification for their optimism based on what the team has accomplished over the last five seasons. Dolphins fans are being overly optimistic based on something that has yet to happen.

Moral of the story--Prove to us on the football field that you are the better team and then you'll have some basis for your boastfulness. The Pats are still the top dog in the division until proven otherwise........................

 

[Displaced - Fan]

LOL!

WR: Branch and chambers wash out..after that you have perenial underachiever caldwell while we have pro-bowler Marty booker who had the 2nd best yards per catch average IN THE ENTIRE NFL! Obviously reche is a much better reciever...his best season was for 352 yards...HE HASN"T EVEN BROKEN 1000 yards for his CAREER! lets check booker in his first 4 years he had 2 1000+ yard seasons... or in the same career span more than double the production. Are you sure reche is better? or will BB and Brady magically make him elite..kind of the way they made David terrell and andre davis finally deliver on their potential..

Marty "Worse than Reche" Booker only put out 188 yards against the pats last year... not to shabby for a 2nd!


And who is Mcdaniel? I'de like to meet this guy whoever you are talking about.. because i know i have a guy named mcmichael who is a better TE than Ben watson..especially since he became one of the better blockers in the league last year after many sub-par years...Go check the tape... There is a reason why our backs average over 4.4 yards and we gave up less than 30 sacks...

Cambers is becoming one of the elite WR's in the league and isn't given the credit he deserves. Branch is a great Patriot WR, but not quite in the league Chambers. At this point, (+1 Miami)

Booker is a good 2nd WR, a solid payer. "Reche" is an unproven prayer as of yet, having struggled through several injury seasons. I believe he has the potential to be as good as Booker, but he needs to stay health. I would have to say at this point (+1 Miami).

The rookie Jackson has #1 receiver ability for sure. Some day he could be a super star, but that has yet to be seen. We'll just have to wait and see.

As for TE's, I really don't think there’s any comparison. Watson is an ANIMAL who will have a great season this year. He is the complete package. McMichael is a ****y player who talks a big game, but doesn't always play that way. I feel he's inconsistent. Graham is the best Blocking TE in the game IMHO. He's actually a descent receiver, just doesn't get a chance to show it often. When it comes to TE's, N.E gets a big (+1 N.E.)

Now let’s take a look at QB's. Tom Brady is arguably the best in the league. After a N.E. season of devastating injuries he carried the team, leading the league in passing yards. Culpepper IMHO is an average QB that Moss made into a Pro Bowler. He's an upgrade for the Dolphins, but no where in the league of Brady. (+2 N.E.) Why plus 2 you ask? When you have a future HoF QB throwing to your WR's, they all play at a level higher than they would normally.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

If we can keep it real here for just a brief moment:

Miami fans have flooded this website to demand that we respect their team, and almost every Pats fan has said 'yeah, they are improved, Miami is a better team, no doubt about it!'

Problem is, that's not enough. The trolls keep coming in here and demanding that we roll over and give up all hope. When is respect not enough?

We get it, trolls, Miami will be better next year and will earn some respect on the field. But you keep making the same generic arguements over and over and demanded that we give you more and more respect. I don't think you guys are going to be happy until we flat out concede the division to you here in cyberspace, and admit that you really ought to win the next three superbowls. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN AT THIS WEBSITE!

Maybe at, oh, a Miami website? Maybe try your luck there?

No it's just that when we see one of the moronic people here say something like Branch is better than Chambers, or that Culpepper is worse than Frerotte, we have to stand up and tell them how wrong they are.

Truth is, you know you have absoltely no respect for our team and what our staff has done this off-season. I understand that we have to win the division before respect is earned but when we do, I do expect all you guys to eat crow and give us the respect we deserve.

 

[SunnyDenmark]

In the Wanny era the fins starting roster more resembled other teams third stringers and coached by one of the worst HC in the NFL, no longer the case in Miami.

WHAT was this? - "fins starting roster resembled other teams third stringers". I believe it was only 2 or 3 years ago that the fins defense had more former and current ProBowlers than most (if not all) other teams in the league. I could look it up and hit you on the head with it again - or you can take back your statement, blame it on drugs, blame it on head trauma or we can just not bring it up again and hope people will just skim over this gross misstatement. Or am I just being biased and disrespecting Miami by mentioning how many ProBowlers you have had on your defense in recent years. Come on - I dare you to challenge me on this. If anything - I think your talent level might even have dropped (certainly gotten older) compared to a few years ago but obviously your HC has gotten better. Still remains to be seen though the 'total coaching package' this coming year as you have new coaches on offense / defense.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

uh, ok....

The thing is that debating details like players is fine. But coming on our website after stinking for years, and demanding us Pats fans to start cooking our big crow pie is a LOT of speculation on your part, and not likely to happen. You already got all the respect you have earned on paper, from plenty of fans at this site.

If Welker wants to talk about facts, that is fine. But if you trolls keep banging your chests and demanding respect, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN UNTIL YOU WIN ON THE FIELD!

 

[PatsFanSince74]

For some reason, I just saw this thread, which has been around for a few days with a lot of opinions posted. So, just a few quick thoughts:

To me the key question is: Have we improved this offseason? It's hard to say we got better, losing three core players with no comparable pick ups to offset their departures. Did Miami improve this offseason? Culpepper is a big question mark, but let's not forget how awesome he was in the past. It's possible that the Dolphins will have improved big time. Did the Jets improve? Hard to argue that they did on the field with a chatoic situation at QB, but Mangini could have a major impact. The Bills? I plain just can't figure them out. So, bottom line, the battle for the AFC East is unformed. Smart money would back the Patriots, but we'd be fools to write Miami out of it in June.

 

[coltshater]

Truth is, you know you have absoltely no respect for our team and what our staff has done this off-season. I understand that we have to win the division before respect is earned but when we do, I do expect all you guys to eat crow and give us the respect we deserve.

I didn't know you played for the Dolphins.

If the Dolphins win the division they will get respect here, you won't.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

For some reason, I just saw this thread, which has been around for a few days with a lot of opinions posted. So, just a few quick thoughts:

To me the key question is: Have we improved this offseason? It's hard to say we got better, losing three core players with no comparable pick ups to offset their departures. Did Miami improve this offseason? Culpepper is a big question mark, but let's not forget how awesome he was in the past. It's possible that the Dolphins will have improved big time. Did the Jets improve? Hard to argue that they did on the field with a chatoic situation at QB, but Mangini could have a major impact. The Bills? I plain just can't figure them out. So, bottom line, the battle for the AFC East is unformed. Smart money would back the Patriots, but we'd be fools to write Miami out of it in June.

This thread should be closed on that statement. Thank you PatsFanSince74. Very good point, it will be a great year and may the best team win!

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

I didn't know you played for the Dolphins.

If the Dolphins win the division they will get respect here, you won't.

Since I am the only person in the world ever to refer my favorite team to myself lol. You're just looking for something to argue about. Silly lil patsie fan.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Yes, poor patsies and our 3 superbowls, and longer win streak than Miami.

It's tough but somebody has to love our team.....

 

[coltshater]

Since I am the only person in the world ever to refer my favorite team to myself lol. You're just looking for something to argue about. Silly lil patsie fan.

Until the Dolphins actually win the division, no Dolphins homer should be referring to anyone here as patsie fan.

 

[CrazyDave]

Whenpeople use the term "Patsies", it makes me think they're a ********.

 

[feelthepain]

I don't know where to begin here.
Bull. I went to school with Will Allen, and have followed his career. He's not starting caliber. By the way, what numbers would you like me to check? As good as any CB in the league. You're officially off the reservation. YOU obviously don't know much about Will Allen, except the Giants got rid of him and he's now a Dolphin. This is like someone here saying 'Brandon Gorin is as good as any lineman in the league. Check all the numbers except for sacks allowed.' I know Welker83. Welker83 generally has fine points to contribute to this board. Welker83 has an enjoyable avatar to boot. You, sir, are no Welker83.

You went to school with Allen, and this is relevant...to your knowledge of his ability how??? What #s would I like you to check?? tckls, passes defended, asst., ya know, the numbers he puts up as a CB in the NFL! They are as good as any CB in the league. You seem to think what he did in NY is some set in stone fact about what he is as a player. How many times in the history of the NFL has a player gotten an unfair rap with one team they move on and become probowlers with another team??? I'm sure you're smart enough that I don't have to pull up a list. Allen did his part in NY, I'll promise you Saban wouldn't have brought Allen in if he agreed with your "expert opinion" or should I say, lack there of!!!

And this is relevant to the conversation how?

Well I didn't see anyone else having probowl season in NY while Allen was there. So is it Allen or the schemes they use?? Sometimes players don't fit the system they are in. Sometimes the coaching is piss poor. I think Miami proved that by having the talent we had and Wanny coaching them into the ground!! You just want Allen to suck, for obvious reasons.

Point in fact, Allen IS a rookie. Another point in fact, he HASN'T done squat. A third point in fact, I never said the Patriots WRs were better than the Dolphins. I believe the Dolphins have the edge at this position.

I was wrong about your opinion on Jackson. As for Jason Allen he is a rookie, but so was Travis Daniels last year and Saban had no problems at all with the kid starting at corner. I see Allen doing the same, Allen is a freak of nature and probably the biggest physical speciman in the draft his combine numbers were just head and shoulders better then anyone in his class in the 06 draft. It's no guarantee he will have a great season, but just on pure talent and ability he's a huge upgrade to our secondary. Saban has added youth speed, size and athletic ability to every position in the secondary. BTW, the biggest reason Saban drafted Allen was to take away the deep middle from Brady.

I don't want, and the Patriots don't need, anybody to hand them anything. True, not everybody thinks that NE will walk through the division this year. There are some Dolphin fans, some columnists who are sick of talking about the Patriots and would like somebody to knock them off, and there are columnists who like to make ridiculous statements so if they happen they can say "I told you so, just like I predicted." If it happens to pass.

Please, you think the Pats should just be handed the division title. It's in everything you post. No one is sick of the Pats and the sports writters don't pick the fins simply becasue they don't want the Pats to win again...thats just dumb. If the Pats were a 13-3 team and the Fins were a 9-7 team no way in Hell they would go out on that big of a limb. The fact is Miami's moves are upgrades in nearly every move they've made. Including coaching additions. As a whole Miam has as good if not better coaching then the Pats. Thanks to all the loses to the Pats coaching staff the last couple of seasons. As far as talent that's been brought to Miami, the experts believe Miami has gotten better, you Pat fans don't, geeeee who has more credibility????

Um...Why shouldn't we? Should we expect to come in second or third because of what has happened in years past.

Why not, you expect the fin fans to expect it!! You think we should believe we wont improve because of years past. Just because the Pats were SB winners 2 years ago you think they will be SB winners this coming year?? Gosh why don't we just give the SB trophy to the Pats every year, you Pat fans obviously don't think you have to play the games to earn it, and if you do have to play the games you obviously don't think anyone has anything for ya. I also guess you think every year is a gurantee for success and your SB dominance will never end?!?!?!?! Sure, Ok.

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

No problem Homer Simpson!!!

Adding bodies does not equal adding competent depth. While they might prove as proficient as the 2001 Patriots team, I see no reason to assume they will be. You seem to assume it's a foregone conclusion.

Right, but when the Pats add depth, it's all genius because BB is always right. Saban is a great telant evaluator, he's coached at the NFL level before he knows how to find talent to fit what he does. No different then BB, just another knock on what the Fins do by a bias Pat fan. You don't have the same opinion about BB when he adds depth, do you??

I don't think we disrespect any team. Believing the Dolphins are the second place team in the division does not equal disrespect. Believing the team that has been better for the last five years is still a better team does not equal disrespect. Save disrespect for the likes of the Steelers, Titans, and Colts, who in recent years would lose to the Patriots again and again, yet still claim that they were the better team. I don't recall seeing that here. Of course, with a message board, you get all types. If by disrespect, though, you mean that Pats fans think the Patriots are the best team in the division, and should win it, then yeah, I guess you can feel disrespected.

Everything in this post thats been quoted is disrepect from you towards a division rival, you goive no credit for coaching, talent, ability NOTHING!!!! Then you claim Miami will not improve on their record from last year, saying 9-7 is what you see Miami's record for 06. But!!!! You see the Pats imporving. No, you don't disrepect at all, Miami gets younger faster smarter and yet we can't improve with DC over Gus Frerotte. Give me a break.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Hush little Dolphins, don't you cry,

YOUR DADDY has heard your alibi,

If you beg just like I say,

Miami will beat the Bills someday,

If you think you're going to the 'Bowl,

Upon the floor with laughter, I roll!:singing:

 

[Chevagus]

There IS a difference between "resting on your laurels" and wanting credit for improvements. Resting on your laurels is based on past performance and accomplishments. Wanting credit for improvements is based on something that mostly exists on what is written on paper. The only way of really knowing whether or not said changes are actual improvements is to see what happens on the field. Pats fans have justification for their optimism based on what the team has accomplished over the last five seasons. Dolphins fans are being overly optimistic based on something that has yet to happen.

Moral of the story--Prove to us on the football field that you are the better team and then you'll have some basis for your boastfulness. The Pats are still the top dog in the division until proven otherwise........................

This thread is getting tired so this will probably be it for me. First of all, I said they're both valid not that they are the same thing. Semantics aside, if you go back in the thread you'll see i talk about expectations and that hopefully the added players for the fins justify those expectations. You'll also see I still give the edge to NE. My point is that it's just as valid to say these new players, including DC, could put the Dolphins over top as it is to say that NE will remain on top despite losing some key players, Weis and Crennel. You don't know the effect of your personnel losses or gains just as the fins don't. The point being I don't think the gap between the teams is so great it can't be overcome. However, NE could just as easily be stronger too. I'm not asking and I don't think I asked for credit for improvements, I would rather have wins. One thing is certain, training camp can't get here soon enough.

 

[dryheat44]

You went to school with Allen, and this is relevant...to your knowledge of his ability how??? What #s would I like you to check?? tckls, passes defended, asst., ya know, the numbers he puts up as a CB in the NFL! They are as good as any CB in the league. You seem to think what he did in NY is some set in stone fact about what he is as a player. How many times in the history of the NFL has a player gotten an unfair rap with one team they move on and become probowlers with another team??? I'm sure you're smart enough that I don't have to pull up a list. Allen did his part in NY, I'll promise you Saban wouldn't have brought Allen in if he agreed with your "expert opinion" or should I say, lack there of!!!

This is getting boring, so I'll just answer a few questions and then be done with it.

The fact that I went to school with Allen is only relevant because I have followed his career more closely than your typical NFC cornerback. I mention it only to assure you that I'm not speaking from ignorance. I want him to succeed. Thus far in his career, he has been a borderline bust for a first round pick. Why would I want him to fail?

Cornerback tackles are often an indication that he's giving up completions. I have no idea what these numbers are in comparison to the rest of the league. To me, most numbers don't gauge cornerback play. I've watched him. I know what he's capable of. He's probably a middle-of-the-road nickle corner. I have never heard anybody else claim Allen is as good as any cornerback in the league. That's madness. The Giants would have NEVER gotten rid of him in that case. After letting Madison go, Saban needed a corner on the cheap. Beggars can't be choosers. I'll be shocked if Allen is starting past week 8.

Saban has a long way to go before he is in Belichick/Pioli's class of scouting. Again, I think he'll get there, and have a good staff set up soon. But there's a reason his drafts have been lopsided on SEC talent. He knows who he's coached and who he's coached against. Because Belichick and Saban are friends who share a lot of Coaching philosophies doesn't make them equals in scouting college or NFL talent. You have no basis in your statement that they're equal in this regard. We'll have to revisit this a year or two down the road before we make that kind of determination.

The fact is that you think every change that Miami has made is for the better and every change that the Patriots has made is for the worse, and therefore the teams are roughly equals. That's wishful thinking, and a best possible scenario for the Dolphins.

Suggesting that the Dolphins coaching staff is "as good if not better" than the Patriots is so absurd that it doesn't justify comment. So ......

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

LOL!

WR: Branch and chambers wash out

How? Please explain.

All I have is Branch's 2004 metrics from Scientific Football: 2006 , which are far superior to those of Chambers. Joyner's Scientific Football: 2006, which should arrive in my mail in 3-4 weeks, will put this to rest.

...after that you have perenial underachiever caldwell while we have pro-bowler Marty booker who had the 2nd best yards per catch average IN THE ENTIRE NFL!

Yards per catch or reception (YPR) is a terrible stat to judge receivers. YPR only tells you what a player averages WHEN HE CATCHES THE BALL. However, yards per attempt (YPA) is a better indication of a receiver's talent. YPA will tell you how many yards a player averages EVERY TIME A PASS IS THROWN HIS WAY. Player "A" could catch 40 passes at 20.4 YPR, while Player B catches 45 passes at 13.5 YPR. However, player "B" has 10 less drops than Player "A" and Player "A" has 15 more pass attempts. Player "B" averages 9.5 YPA while Player "A" averages 8.7 YPA.

Result: Player "B" was more productive. In 2004 Branch has zero drops and led the league in Comp%.

Joyner noted that when a QB throws the ball away or has it batted down or throws while being hit, the NFL credits an attempt to the nearest receiver, which is ridiculous. Therefore, Joyner came up with Total Yards Per Catchable Attempt (TYPCA) that excludes these throwaway attempts.

2005 YPR leaders (minimum 40 receptions to qualify):

1. Ashley Lelie -- 18.5
2. Terry Glenn -- 18.2
3. Santana Moss -- 17.7
4. Randy Moss -- 16.8
5. Ernest Wilford -- 16.6
6. Justin McCareins -- 16.6
7. Eddie Kennison -- 16.2
8. Terrell Owens -- 16.2
9. Plaxico Burress -- 16.0
10. Joey Galloway -- 15.5
11. Lee Evans -- 15.5
12. Brandon Lloyd -- 15.3
13. Roy Williams -- 15.3
14. Steve Smith -- 15.2
15. Chad Johnson -- 14.8

2005 TYPCA Leaders (minimum 40 receptions to qualify):

1. Santana Moss -- 11.4
2. Steve Smith -- 10.7
3. Eddie Kennison -- 10.7
4. Ernest Wilford -- 10.0
5. Terry Glenn -- 9.7
6. Torry Holt -- 9.6
7. Chad Johnson -- 9.6
8. Eric Parker -- 9.6
9. Donald Driver -- 9.4
10. Ashley Lelie -- 9.3
11. Joey Galloway -- 9.3
12. Marvin Harrison -- 9.2
13. Hines Ward -- 9.2
14. Joe Jurevicius -- 9.1
15. Kevin Curtis -- 9.1

Proving my point, compare Jurevicius to Burress...

Burress: 76 ~ 1214 ~ 16.0 (YPR)
Jurevicius: 55 ~ 694 ~ 12.6 (YPR)

Yet, Burress isn't in the top 15 in TYPCA while Jurevicius made the top-15 with a 9.1 TYPCA. Jurevicius even had a better TYPCA than Randy Moss. Randy and Burress are overrated. Jurevicius may not be a better receiver than Moss or Burress, but he's certainly more productive.

Obviously reche is a much better reciever...his best season was for 352 yards...HE HASN"T EVEN BROKEN 1000 yards for his CAREER! lets check booker in his first 4 years he had 2 1000+ yard seasons... or in the same career span more than double the production. Are you sure reche is better? or will BB and Brady magically make him elite..kind of the way they made David terrell and andre davis finally deliver on their potential...

I didn't say Reche was better. I said he has more potential. Booker is 30. His Rec totals have steadily declined since 2001. Caldwell is only 27 and has been injured in 2003 & 2004. He was buried in the Bolts depth chart in 2005. So far, Reche has worked hard and has looked good in practice. Something Terrell never did (he looked slow last summer). Davis had no potential and was a desperation pickup. Comparing Reche to Terrell and Davis is myopic.

Marty "Worse than Reche" Booker only put out 188 yards against the pats last year... not to shabby for a 2nd!

Anecdotal evidence never helps an argument. Case in point, Reche Caldwell had 3 catches for 103 yards and 36.7 YPR and a TD against Tennessee in 10/3/2004. Whoopie.

And who is Mcdaniel? I'de like to meet this guy whoever you are talking about.. because i know i have a guy named mcmichael who is a better TE than Ben watson..especially since he became one of the better blockers in the league last year after many sub-par years...Go check the tape... There is a reason why our backs average over 4.4 yards and we gave up less than 30 sacks...

My apologies, but you know who I meant. Joyner's latest book will verify your claims since he checks the tape for me. He's doing a special on individual run-blocking metrics.

As for McMichael's receiving skills in 2005...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2380910

Here's a small part of the March 2006 KC Joyner article...

Randy McMichael
Depth Attempts Comp Yards TD INT Pen Yds/Att
Short 79 55 461 2 1 5 5.9
Medium 13 2 46 1 1 0 3.5
Deep 8 3 75 2 0 0 9.4
Total 100 60 582 5 2 5 5.9


These are simply pathetic numbers. The numbers were even worse when McMichael was flexed out. He had 20 passes thrown to him when he lined up outside and caught only 11 for 116 yards, which equates to an average of 5.8 yards per attempt

McMichael had five medium or deep passes thrown to him as a wide receiver, and he caught only one for an 18-yard TD, which equates to an average of 3.6 yards per vertical attempt. The Dolphins' quarterbacks had some problems last year, but they weren't bad enough to justify McMichael's numbers.

 

[Aqua4Ever04]

Hush little Dolphins, don't you cry,

YOUR DADDY has heard your alibi,

If you beg just like I say,

Miami will beat the Bills someday,

If you think you're going to the 'Bowl,

Upon the floor with laughter, I roll!:singing:

Dude all you do is make smart a** comments. You know nothing about football and can't debate because you're just an stupid idiot who likes the Pats because they win. I haven't seen you make one good football point ever on this site.